HOH Top Forwards - Determining positions. Updated Wingers list Post 276

[TheDevilMadeMe]

At some point, we have to make a decision as to whether to separate forwards by position or do them all together. I think it would help make that decision more informed if we first knew how difficult it was to separate forwards by position. So here is a list of every multi-positional forward drafted in the first 500 picks of the last ATD. Let's figure out if we can figure out the first position of all of them. To make it easier, I'll do a lot of them myself. Feel free to disagree.

Bolded guys need more discussion

Mark Messier - C/LW - definitely primarily a C
Cyclone Taylor - Rover/C/D - How do we handle him? He's a Rover first, but Rover was kind of like a modern C. Consider him a C for our purposes (see post 99)
Frank Nighbor - C/LW - majority of his career and best years at C
Alex Delvecchio - C/LW - played C for the majority of his career - played LW when Norm Ullman was moved to the top line (see posts 14 and 34)
Sid Abel - C/LW - 3 of 4 All Star nods at C, more time at C than LW, he's a C more than a LW
Hooley Smith - C/RW - all AS nods at C, natural C who moved to RW when the team already had a star C. Call him a C.
Anatoli Firsov - LW/C - only played C at the very end of his career. Call him a LW
Doug Bentley, LW/C - call him LW (see posts 9 and 10)
Syd Howe, LW/C/D
Reg Noble - LW/D/C - spent a large part of his career on D, but when he was forward, he was usually a LW (see posts 31, 50)
Alexander Maltsev - C/RW - call him a C (see posts 52, 55, 56)
Mickey MacKay - C/rover - He can be included as a C, unless we do a separate category for rovers
Henrik Zetterberg - C/LW
Didier Pitre - RW/D - Mostly a RW
Frank Foyston, F
Patrick Elias - LW/C - mostly a LW
Ilya Kovalchuk - LW/RW - still mostly a LW for his career
Jere Lehtinen - LW/RW - call him a LW (see posts 57 and 58)
Rod Brind'amour - C/LW - mostly a C
Doug Mohns - D/LW - I guess he can be a LW since we didn't include him on the D list
Bernie Morris - C/RW
Bob Pulford - C/LW
Alf Smith, LW/RW
Phil Watson - C/RW - mostly a C
Jack Walker - F
Keith Tkachuk - LW/C - prime as a LW
Tony Leswick - LW/RW - call him LW (see post 19)
Danny Heatley - LW/RW (see posts 25 and 41)
Kirk Muller - LW/C
Neil Colville - C/D - seems the majority of his prime was at C and we didn't include him as a D anyway
Don McKenney - C/LW - C (see posts 18 and 20)
Vincent Damphousse - C/LW
Jack Adams - C/LW - mostly a C
Vic Stasiuk, W
Eddie Oatman - RW/D - mostly a RW
Ed Litzenberger - C/RW - mostly a RW (see posts 109 and 122)
Shane Doan - RW/LW - mostly a RW
John Madden - C/LW - mostly a C
Rusty Crawford - LW/C - mostly a LW
Fleming MacKell - C/LW - mostly a C
Blair Russell - C/RW
Don Marcotte, F - LW by default unless there was someone specific to check
Trevor Linden - C/RW - call him RW (see posts 2 and 29)
Harry Westwick, F
Jack Marshall - F/D (lol)
Tod Sloan - C/RW - best years at C
Tommy Smith - C/LW - spent more time at C than LW (see post 59)
Fred Stanfield - C/LW - mostly a C
Red Berenson - C/LW - majority of best years at C
Patrik Marleau - C/LW
Vladimir Vikulov - RW/C - mostly RW
Brian Rolston - F
Kent Nilsson - C/RW

Lynn Patrick and Clint Smith were not drafted in the top 500 of the last ATD, but both are in the HHOF, so someone might want to include them on their list.

Lynn Patrick - C/LW - most AS recognition at LW. Call him a LW
Clint Smith - C/LW - most AS recogntion at C. Call him a C

Also added:

Dave Andreychuk - LW/C - prime as LW
Vaclav Nedomansky - C/RW (see posts 35, 39, 53, 54)

Red Kelly, Dit Clapper, Eddie Gerard, Ebbie Goodfellow, Babe Siebert and Mosse Johnson were already decided to be primarily defensemen.

I wouldn't worry too much about guys like Brian Rolston who were drafted in the ATD as role players, but might as well knock them out if it's easy.

Click to read more...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

methodologically, i think we'd need to make a master list (the one above is a good start, maybe even complete but i'm not certain) of all the significant forwards who spent significant time at two positions. we'd then need to decide which one that guy counts as, with the criteria probably being what he's best remembered as or what position his most significant play was at.

and probably we wouldn't have the red kelly problem where it would be a big debate whether his time at forward does or does not contribute to his legacy as a defenseman. if a guy played 2/3 of his career at center and the rest at wing, not too much of a stretch to count those wing years to his legacy as a forward right?

some guys it's pretty easy. messier is a center. he was an excellent winger early on, but he was an all-time great center for the bulk of his career, including his best years. it might be a little tough deciding how to weight those first team all-stars at left wing though.


and just a note on linden: i'm quite certain he was mostly a center when he broke in as a rookie. regular season, he was most productive as a right wing. he had some very good playoff years as the RW with cliff ronning (C) and geoff courtnall (LW). but in '94, which is his shining moment, he spent most of the playoffs as the RW with lafayette and courtnall, but in important games or in overtime or at the end of games when the team needed a goal/to protect a lead, they'd put him at center. in the last two OT goals to knock of the flames, it was linden with bure and courtnall in game 6 and linden with bure and adams in game 7. i think he'd count as a right winger, but it probably doesn't matter because he's probably not in the discussion for either list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

and probably we wouldn't have the red kelly problem where it would be a big debate whether his time at forward does or does not contribute to his legacy as a defenseman. if a guy played 2/3 of his career at center and the rest at wing, not too much of a stretch to count those wing years to his legacy as a forward right?

I completely agree with this.

As for your comment about whether this list is complete or not, if anyone wants to add anyone, they are welcome to do so, and I will add them to the OP. Originally, I was going to include every multi-positional guy who was drafted in the 800 pick ATD, but GMs got lazy near the end and started listing everyone and their mother as "F," so I had to cut it off somewhere to keep this thing from ballooning.

Yeah, Linden is kind of a tough one isn't he? Based on what you said, I'm inclined to put him at RW. We have too many Cs as it is. I doubt he makes the list either way, but I'm trying to include any player that anyone might possibly include.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

As for your comment about whether this list is complete or not, if anyone wants to add anyone, they are welcome to do so, and I will add them to the OP. Originally, I was going to include every multi-positional guy who was drafted in the 800 pick ATD, but GMs got lazy near the end and started listing everyone and their mother as "F," so I had to cut it off somewhere to keep this thing from ballooning.

i'm assuming that guys like andreychuk and tkachuk, who played center later in their careers, aren't on the list because we all agree they're LWs right?

EDIT: oops, just noticed tkachuk on the list. i guess if he's there then andreychuk should be too.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

i'm assuming that guys like andreychuk and tkachuk, who played center later in their careers, aren't on the list because we all agree they're LWs right?

EDIT: oops, just noticed tkachuk on the list. i guess if he's there then andreychuk should be too.

Yeah, the ATD listings aren't entirely consistent and just listed Andreychuk as a LW. I can't see anyone objecting though

I might as well add dave to the list as a LW/C - prime at LW

 

[overpass]

i'm assuming that guys like andreychuk and tkachuk, who played center later in their careers, aren't on the list because we all agree they're LWs right?

EDIT: oops, just noticed tkachuk on the list. i guess if he's there then andreychuk should be too.

Andreychuk was drafted as a C and played there for his first 3 NHL seasons, as well as toward the end of his career. It's an unusual career path. But yes, he played the most and the best at LW.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I recommend doing centers and wingers separately and ignoring which side the wingers played on.

That way , we could effectively decide in which category most of the players will fall in.If they played 6 years at wing and 10 years at center , we might as well count his wing years as if he was a center (unless the switch produced a particular change in the player's dominance , which should be taken into granted later in more in-depth discussions).

As for rovers ,they're a pain in the ass.For Taylor my guess would be to put him at center , but even then it's going to be very complicated to rank him , even if we look at his play while playing at other positions.

 

[MXD]

I agree -- there should be a determination on this.

However -- will there be one or two lists for wingers? (RW/LW)

I think Rovers should be grouped with centers, if only because a rover-only list would be sortof pointless if we go above 10.

Colville? Should never be voted in a Top Centerman list anyways, but was mainly a C. A bit in the Ebbie Goodfellow model. Not sure why any of them would be significantly above Jonathan Toews as C's, so...

 

[overpass]

Doug Bentley played LW alongside his brother Max. He moved to C after Max was traded.

7 seasons at LW, 4 at C. Verdict: LW.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Doug Bentley played LW alongside his brother Max. He moved to C after Max was traded.

7 seasons at LW, 4 at C. Verdict: LW.

Here's an article from Dink Caroll from 1950 that says Doug Bentley "will return to his old spot on left wing on a line with Billy Monsienko," to be centered by either Jim Conacher or Pete Babando.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...q=dink+carroll+playing+the+field+hockey&hl=en

Seems like Doug actually played some LW after Max was traded. Yup, let's call him LW.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i'd say on that list, damphousse probably belongs in bold too.

also, even though i don't know enough about early guys to meaningfully participate and don't have the time to catch up i'd certainly like to see separate RW and LW lists. i think there's a meaningful difference, even if what that difference is changes from era to era.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I agree -- there should be a determination on this.

However -- will there be one or two lists for wingers? (RW/LW)

I think Rovers should be grouped with centers, if only because a rover-only list would be sortof pointless if we go above 10.

Colville? Should never be voted in a Top Centerman list anyways, but was mainly a C. A bit in the Ebbie Goodfellow model. Not sure why any of them would be significantly above Jonathan Toews as C's, so...

My preference is to list LW and RW separately, since that's what the NHL does, but it may be too hard. Let's see where this thread takes us before deciding.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

i'd say on that list, damphousse probably belongs in bold too.

also, even though i don't know enough about early guys to meaningfully participate and don't have the time to catch up i'd certainly like to see separate RW and LW lists. i think there's a meaningful difference, even if what that difference is changes from era to era.

hockey reference, hockeydb, and wikipedia all list Damphousse as C, and IIRC, he only played LW for a few seasons, though he did it well.

 

[overpass]

Alex Delvecchio played some C and some LW in the 50s. How much I don't know. What I am pretty sure of is that he was Gordie Howe's C regularly from about 1960 until Howe retired, and he played C to the end of his career. Even without nailing down the 50s I would lean towards C for Delvecchio on time served.

On the other hand, if you want to complicate things you could argue that Howe was effectively the centre for his line as the main puck carrier and playing C with him was really like playing wing.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

hockey reference, hockeydb, and wikipedia all list Damphousse as C, and IIRC, he only played LW for a few seasons, though he did it well.

just looking at AST voting, damphousse receives votes at LW in '90 (23 votes), '91 (3 votes), '92 (5 votes), '93 (7 votes), and '94 (8 votes). assuming they listed his position correctly, that's his prime, right?

for what it's worth, i always thought of him as a LW though that's probably because he played left wing the year he won the cup.

muller, another difficult guy, played center in '93 and i don't have a ton of memories of him in NJ but those memories are of him as a center too. my first instinct is to go damphousse LW and muller C, even though most of the databases list them the other way around.


and speaking of the habs, two more names that in the end probably won't matter: shayne corson and russ courtnall.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

just looking at AST voting, damphousse receives votes at LW in '90 (23 votes), '91 (3 votes), '92 (5 votes), '93 (7 votes), and '94 (8 votes). assuming they listed his position correctly, that's his prime, right?

for what it's worth, i always thought of him as a LW though that's probably because he played left wing the year he won the cup.

muller, another difficult guy, played center in '93 and i don't have a ton of memories of him in NJ but those memories are of him as a center too. my first instinct is to go damphousse LW and muller C, even though most of the databases list them the other way around.


and speaking of the habs, another name that in the end probably won't matter: shayne corson.

Hmm, I'll bold Damphoussue then. Muller played mostly C in NJ, from what I remember, but I was pretty young then.

The modern All-Star voters aren't exactly always right - I think Zetterberg mostly played C when he was voted 2nd Team AS LW, and I know Kovalchuk played RW last year, but the PHWA decided he would only be eligible for votes at LW to prevent vote splitting.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I would REALLY like to do all 3 forward positions separately, with the centers list being larger than the LW/RW lists. I think this thread is absolutely necessary if we want that to happen. Get everyone to agree on a position for each player, and then treat him as if he played his entire career at that position. I really didn't like how in the Defenseman Project it was just left for everyone to decide individually on how they treated players. You want everyone to be on the same page for the list to be as accurate as possible.

I am happy to help determine a position for the bolded players in the OP. I will start with Henrik Zetterberg

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Pretty sure Don McKenney should be a Center. I had him in the ATD a couple years ago, and while I don't have the research I remember that it was something I looked into and he played center for a large amount of the time. I know for sure that all of his AS votes were at center.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In the absence of an objection, I'm going to say Tony Leswick was a bit more of a LW than a RW. His career is evenly split between the Rangers and Red Wings. On the Red Wings, he mostly played RW on the checking line with Marty Pavelich at LW, and that's where he won his Cups.

But I still think his best years were with the Rangers, where it appears his primarily position was LW. He was a 2nd Team AS LW in 1950, and received a handful of AS votes in both 1947 and 1948, both at LW. Also, his feuds with Maurice Richard and Gordie Howe were legendary, and he must have been playing LW to shadow them.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Pretty sure Don McKenney should be a Center. I had him in the ATD a couple years ago, and while I don't have the research I remember that it was something I looked into and he played center for a large amount of the time. I know for sure that all of his AS votes were at center.

hockeydb, hockey reference, and wikipedia all list him as a C, as well.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I completely agree with this.

As for your comment about whether this list is complete or not, if anyone wants to add anyone, they are welcome to do so, and I will add them to the OP. Originally, I was going to include every multi-positional guy who was drafted in the 800 pick ATD, but GMs got lazy near the end and started listing everyone and their mother as "F," so I had to cut it off somewhere to keep this thing from ballooning.

Yeah, Linden is kind of a tough one isn't he? Based on what you said, I'm inclined to put him at RW. We have too many Cs as it is. I doubt he makes the list either way, but I'm trying to include any player that anyone might possibly include.

I think that as long as we designate each player a position then at least we can all be on the same page for voting.

As for Linden, I'm not sure how many RW's we are doing but his heart and leadership have to count for something right?

Depending on how long the list is he will get on at some point.

A guy like Real "Buddy" Cloutier blows Linden out of the water, scoring wise, but he also did absolutely nothing besides score.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think that as long as we designate each player a position then at least we can all be on the same page for voting.

As for Linden, I'm not sure how many RW's we are doing but his heart and leadership have to count for something right?

Depending on how long the list is he will get on at some point.

A guy like Real "Buddy" Cloutier blows Linden out of the water, scoring wise, but he also did absolutely nothing besides score.

So do you agree with Vadim that Linden was more RW than C?

 

[Nalens Oga]

Wait, do you mean separate forwards from each other or separate forwards from dmen and goalies?

If it's the latter then I'm all for it, there should be a separate list for fwds/dmen/goalies if you wanna be credible. But if you're separating by winger/centre then that's just taking it too far imo.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Wait, do you mean separate forwards from each other or separate forwards from dmen and goalies?

If it's the latter then I'm all for it, there should be a separate list for fwds/dmen/goalies if you wanna be credible. But if you're separating by winger/centre then that's just taking it too far imo.

I absolutely want to do separate lists for LW, C, RW, but I would be all for doing a Forwards list before the "All Players" list.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Dany Heatley has All-Star selections at both wings, but I believe he should be listed as a right-wing, since it seems to be his preferred position.

The Senators centre wasn't trying to put pressure on Dany Heatley, but Spezza is positive a move to the right side is going to be all right for his linemate.

"I don't think it's going to be too big a deal," said Spezza with a wide smile. "At times, (Heatley) has played on the right side , I think he is more comfortable over there. So we figure if he can get 50 (goals) on the left side, where he doesn't like it as much, he'll get 60 on the right side."

Of course, Spezza was only kidding, but as the Senators wrapped up their first on-ice session of training camp, yesterday at the Bell Sensplex, their new look was already getting a lot of attention.

With Martin Havlat and Bryan Smolinski dealt to Chicago in the summer, coach Bryan Murray is going to try a lot of different forward combinations during camp.

The biggest move on the first day of camp was the much-anticipated decision to move Heatley to Spezza's right wing, while Patrick Eaves skated on the left.

Though Heatley was trying to play it down, Spezza indicated the high-scoring winger wants the chance to use his one-timer from the slot this season.

"I get the feeling he just feels that it's going to be easier over there (on right wing)," said Spezza.

Setoguchi had spent his entire pro career playing right wing. But since coming to Minnesota from San Jose, he moved to the left side in order to accommodate Heatley, who likes playing the off wing and had done so previously in Atlanta and San Jose.

But with the line struggling to generate offense and speed coming through the neutral zone, Yeo made the switch in hopes of jump-starting the top line.

"I've never really played the left side before, so we were trying it out," Setoguchi said. "Heater wanted to play right, so I figured I could play left. It's nice at times and sometimes it's not, like catching a pass. I'm used to playing the right side and he knows how to play the left, so we'll see how this works out."