HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)

[daver]

Because the case was as successfully made as you implies.

And because there isn't only offense to hockey.

Besides tangible elements like Selke wins or votes, are there other variables used to determine non-offense contributions?

 

[Plural]

Besides tangible elements like Selke wins or votes, are there other variables used to determine non-offense contributions?

Are you here finding some ground for the Crosby vs. Jagr debate.

 

[daver]

Are you here finding some ground for the Crosby vs. Jagr debate.

Some view offensive stats as the be-all, end-all for rating players. Looking to see how other variables are factored in.

The Crosby-Jagr debate is shaping up to be a good one though.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Some view offensive stats as the be-all, end-all for rating players. Looking to see how other variables are factored in.

The Crosby-Jagr debate is shaping up to be a good one though.

There are 2 things about Jagr and his placing

1) It's really hard for people to place or rank players still playing is an observation I have made and I think when he retires and we have say 5 years to get some perspective on him his standing and impact might be more fairly addressed.

2) things other than scoring, which should probably be the primary basis on how we rank forwards IMO, tend to be a hit and miss thing and it comes down to personal bias, some tend to bring out intangibles for players they like and dismiss or downplay them for those they don't like.

In the top wingers project coming up Jagr is in serious contention for top 3 and will probably be in most people's top 5, it will be a very interesting discussion to watch.

 

[unknown33]

In the top wingers project coming up Jagr is in serious contention for top 3 and will probably be in most people's top 5, it will be a very interesting discussion to watch.

Jagr will end up 4th.

 

[MXD]

Jagr will end up 4th.

If anything, he actually better come 4th.

 

[unknown33]

If anything, he actually better come 4th.

What do you mean?

 

[MXD]

What do you mean?

No claim at top-3, but definitely better than any candidate below. The only other player I can picture having a case over Jagr, except for the big3, is Makarov.

 

[Horvath Broncos]

No claim at top-3, but definitely better than any candidate below. The only other player I can picture having a case over Jagr, except for the big3, is Makarov.

top 3 as in Howe, Hull and Richard. if so i must ask how Lafleur is not close or even on par with Jagr? I think they have/had pretty comparable careers.

i most definitely rank Lafleur and actually few others ahead of Makarov

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think that on the wingers project (if we have one), we'll have Howe 1st (duh), then I expect a spirited discussion between Hull, Richard, and Jagr. Jagr actually does have a an edge at regular season peak point production over those 2, but I expect him to probably finish 4th when all is sorted out in the end.

For me, the interesting conversation is who would be 5th among wingers - Lafleur, Cook, Makarov, and Ovechkin (seriously) all have a legit claim IMO, and I'm sure others will argue for Bossy, Lindsay, or Kharlamov. And, of course, there are reasons to rank Bossy or Lindsay over Ovechkin, as well.

 

[thom]

Read Howie Meekers book-Stop it back it up- A best seller in canada.-He has Guy Lafleur as the 5th best player of all time.He also says Lafleur is the best hab ever.Here is Howie Meekers top 10.1-Wayne Gretzky.2-Orr.3-Lemieux.4-Howe.5-Lafleur.6-Beliveau.7-Hull.8-Harvey.9-Sawchuk.10-Messier. M.Richard-15 and Jagr-20.Many publications in Quebec have Lafleur higher than Richard or Beliveau.

 

[Horvath Broncos]

Read Howie Meekers book-Stop it back it up- A best seller in canada.-He has Guy Lafleur as the 5th best player of all time.He also says Lafleur is the best hab ever.Here is Howie Meekers top 10.1-Wayne Gretzky.2-Orr.3-Lemieux.4-Howe.5-Lafleur.6-Beliveau.7-Hull.8-Harvey.9-Sawchuk.10-Messier. M.Richard-15 and Jagr-20.Many publications in Quebec have Lafleur higher than Richard or Beliveau.

this may start a **** storm but i wouldn't have any problem with somebody ranking Flower or Jagr over Richard. He seems to be overrated pretty often due to the fact that he is so iconic player and a legend but his performances on the ice IMO don't come anywhere near Hull or obviosly Howe.

 

[thom]

Good point crosby-I know what Richard meant to Quebec people but Howie played against Maurice and Harvey and seen all others.Richard had Lach who won hart and Art and Blake was an allstar.Lafleur had Lemaire and Shutt good but not great.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

this may start a **** storm but i wouldn't have any problem with somebody ranking Flower or Jagr over Richard. He seems to be overrated pretty often due to the fact that he is so iconic player and a legend but his performances on the ice IMO don't come anywhere near Hull or obviosly Howe.

Richard's performances in the postseason were better than Hull's ot Jagr's, and he holds a 14-6 advantage in postseason All-Star Teams over Guy Lafleur. A 14-8 advantage in postseason All-Star Teams over Jaromir Jagr.

Richard's regular season peak was "only" 5 runners up for the Art Ross, which is probably a little behind Jagr or Flower, but he kills them in consistency and longevity as an elite player, and his postseason performances were second to none.

Anyway, I do think there is a case for Jagr over Richard or Hull, even if I won't necessarily agree with it.

 

[unknown33]

I think that on the wingers project (if we have one), we'll have Howe 1st (duh), then I expect a spirited discussion between Hull, Richard, and Jagr.

Even though I might prefer Jagr 3rd, I think he has no chance finishing ahead of Richard based on opinions I read here.

Most clearly prefer the Rocket and I don't think there is much convincting going on when talking about the well known cream of the crop players. Also I expect Jagr getting more outliner bottom votes.

The support for Lafleur is getting less and less, some might still have him ahead of Jagr but unlikely over Richard. Richard over Hull is also quite popular.

For me, the interesting conversation is who would be 5th among wingers - Lafleur, Cook, Makarov, and Ovechkin(seriously) all have a legit claim IMO.

#1 candidate for extreme bottom outliner votes out of all player in my opinion. (Out of 'modern' NHL players)

 

[Horvath Broncos]

Richard's performances in the postseason were better than Hull's ot Jagr's, and he holds a 14-6 advantage in postseason All-Star Teams over Guy Lafleur. A 14-8 advantage in postseason All-Star Teams over Jaromir Jagr.

Richard's regular season peak was "only" 5 runners up for the Art Ross, which is probably a little behind Jagr or Flower, but he kills them in consistency and longevity as an elite player, and his postseason performances were second to none.

Anyway, I do think there is a case for Jagr over Richard or Hull, even if I won't necessarily agree with it.

Lafleur's peak wasn't as long as Richard but he still managed to get 3 art rosses and if he played full season could have also stolen one from Orr himself. Also two harts compared to Richards one. though Rocket had Howe to compete against and to top it all 3 Lindsays which in this case are pretty irrelevant. but i am sure you know these things. i would probably rank wingers from 3-5 Lafleur, Jagr, Richard but they are IMO pretty damn close.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Lafleur's peak wasn't as long as Richard but he still managed to get 3 art rosses and if he played full season could have also stolen one from Orr himself. Also two harts compared to Richards one. though Rocket had Howe to compete against and to top it all 3 Lindsays which in this case are pretty irrelevant. but i am sure you know these things. i would probably rank wingers from 3-5 Lafleur, Jagr, Richard but they are IMO pretty damn close.

Except once you figure playoff performances in, Richard, IMO, starts pulling away from both of them.

 

[Horvath Broncos]

Except once you figure playoff performances in, Richard, IMO, starts pulling away from both of them.

Jagr i understand completely but wasn't Lafleur one heckuva playoff performer at his peak years?

 

[Rhiessan71]

Jagr i understand completely but wasn't Lafleur one heckuva playoff performer at his peak years?

I know but Richard was even better.

It took 40 years and 30-40 more playoff games for anyone to match Richard's playoff GWG total.

And even right now, Richard is 8th in PO goals despite playing many less games than just about every other player in the top-20 and took over 25 years for any of them to even pass Richard.
Only Lemieux and Bossy have a higher playoff GpG rate and as we all know, neither of those players played much into their nether years while Richard did.

 

[Horvath Broncos]

I know but Richard was even better.

It took 40 years and 30-40 more playoff games for anyone to match Richard's playoff GWG total.

And even right now, Richard is 8th in PO goals despite playing many less games than just about every other player in the top-20 and took over 25 years for any of them to even pass Richard.
Only Lemieux and Bossy have a higher playoff GpG rate and as we all know, neither of those players played much into their nether years while Richard did.

Rocket definitely was the better goalscorer of the two, but still in the regular season he has zero art rosses and many times was outscored by his own team-/linemates and i don't know if his playoff performances are enough to put him in front of Flower, who atleast in my mind is clearly better player in the regular season and was no slouch in the post season either.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Rocket definitely was the better goalscorer of the two, but still in the regular season he has zero art rosses and many times was outscored by his own team-/linemates and i don't know if his playoff performances are enough to put him in front of Flower, who atleast in my mind is clearly better player in the regular season and was no slouch in the post season either.

Lafleur top 10 finishes in points: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4
Richard top 10 finishes in points: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

 

[Horvath Broncos]

Lafleur top 10 finishes in points: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4
Richard top 10 finishes in points: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

in those seasons he has been outscored by atleast 3 different team mates of his own.

 

[Killion]

Definitely, 110% going with Maurice Richard here on this one. Love Guy Lafleur but no, sorry, nowhere close to the Money Player that was The Rocket & Ditto on that for Jagr. When it really mattered Richard exceeded all expectations year in year out post season (and regular). Statistically those others 2 guys Im afraid arent even close and when it comes to the intangibles, no, not even on the same Planet as Richard. This guy was the Ultimate Bad*** All Time from the Blue Line in, in fact, both ends of the rink. Nothing really fancy but just through sheer force of will & strength, knock you right out (both literally & figuratively by scoring critical goals or with his fists if you wanted to play it that way). Lafleur was poetry in motion; Jagr an imaginative abstract & very colorful splash of paint. Richard was a 2 X 4 delivered 2 handed between the eyes. All the chips on the table, he'd be my first pick in a Winner Take All.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

in those seasons he has been outscored by atleast 3 different team mates of his own.

He also led his team in scoring in 1947, 1950, 1951, 1953, and 1954. Lost the scoring title by 1 point in 1955 to a teammate who played 3 more games.

Finished 2nd to Jean Beliveau in team scoring in 1956 and 1957.

 

[thom]

Guy Lafleur led his team in assists 8 times,led team in pts 8 times.Maurice Richard led assists only 2 times,and led team in pts 5 times.Lafleur never played with an all star centerman not even close.And the good centermen he had they got rid off.Maurice played with award winning players on line-Hart,Art Ross.Lafleur had Shutt yes he was good but a great player