HOH Top 60 Defensemen - Round 1 Voting Results

[overpass]

HOH Top 60 Defensemen - Round 1 Voting Results

Rank | Player | # of Lists | Voting Points | Average Ranking
1 | Bobby Orr | 23 | 1839 | 1.0
2 | Doug Harvey | 23 | 1806 | 2.5
3 | Ray Bourque | 23 | 1790 | 3.2
4 | Eddie Shore | 23 | 1775 | 3.8
5 | Nicklas Lidstrom | 23 | 1745 | 5.1
6 | Denis Potvin | 23 | 1729 | 5.8
7 | Red Kelly | 23 | 1695 | 7.3
8 | Larry Robinson | 23 | 1667 | 8.5
9 | Slava Fetisov | 23 | 1652 | 9.2
10 | Chris Chelios | 23 | 1622 | 10.5
11 | Brad Park | 23 | 1601 | 11.4
12 | Pierre Pilote | 23 | 1549 | 13.7
13 | Paul Coffey | 23 | 1546 | 13.8
14 | Al MacInnis | 23 | 1503 | 15.7
15 | King Clancy | 23 | 1494 | 16.0
16 | Tim Horton | 23 | 1465 | 17.3
17 | Earl Seibert | 23 | 1439 | 18.4
18 | Scott Stevens | 23 | 1437 | 18.5
19 | Sprague Cleghorn | 23 | 1407 | 19.8
20 | Brian Leetch | 23 | 1320 | 23.6
21 | Chris Pronger | 23 | 1319 | 23.7
22 | Bill Gadsby | 23 | 1314 | 23.9
23 | Borje Salming | 23 | 1303 | 24.3
24 | Dit Clapper | 22 | 1286 | 22.5
25 | Serge Savard | 23 | 1242 | 27.0
26 | Valeri Vasiliev | 23 | 1231 | 27.5
27 | Mark Howe | 23 | 1216 | 28.1
28 | Scott Niedermayer | 23 | 1144 | 31.3
29 | Rod Langway | 23 | 1115 | 32.5
30 | Bill Quackenbush | 23 | 1098 | 33.3
31 | Guy Lapointe | 22 | 1087 | 31.6
32 | Jack Stewart | 23 | 1053 | 35.2
33 | Jacques Laperriere | 23 | 1020 | 36.7
34 | Marcel Pronovost | 23 | 959 | 39.3
35 | Lionel Conacher | 22 | 947 | 38.0
36 | Butch Bouchard | 23 | 931 | 40.5
37 | J.C. Tremblay | 23 | 928 | 40.7
38 | Eddie Gerard | 21 | 912 | 37.6
39 | Larry Murphy | 23 | 908 | 41.5
40 | Rob Blake | 22 | 838 | 42.9
41 | Zdeno Chara | 22 | 836 | 43.0
42 | Ebbie Goodfellow | 22 | 761 | 46.4
43 | Carl Brewer | 22 | 746 | 47.1
44 | Alexei Kasatonov | 22 | 730 | 47.8
45 | Ching Johnson | 23 | 718 | 49.8
46 | Moose Johnson | 18 | 702 | 42.0
47 | Jan Suchy | 22 | 663 | 50.9
48 | George Boucher | 20 | 658 | 48.1
49 | Tom Johnson | 21 | 657 | 49.7
50 | Hod Stuart | 22 | 651 | 51.4
51 | Babe Siebert | 19 | 639 | 47.4
52 | Harry Cameron | 20 | 636 | 49.2
53 | Sylvio Mantha | 23 | 626 | 53.8
54 | Ken Reardon | 17 | 618 | 44.6
55 | Doug Wilson | 23 | 615 | 54.3
56 | Alexander Ragulin | 20 | 602 | 50.9
57 | Fern Flaman | 21 | 529 | 55.8
58 | Harry Howell | 22 | 522 | 57.3
59 | Lester Patrick | 20 | 510 | 55.5
60 | Allan Stanley | 22 | 493 | 58.6
61 | Sergei Zubov | 21 | 483 | 58.0
62 | Art Coulter | 21 | 458 | 59.2
63 | Harvey Pulford | 17 | 396 | 57.7
64 | Vladimir Konstantinov | 17 | 341 | 60.9
65 | Pat Stapleton | 20 | 336 | 64.2
66 | Frantisek Pospisil | 14 | 320 | 58.1
67 | Mike Grant | 12 | 310 | 55.2
68 | Bill White | 18 | 284 | 65.2
69 | Babe Pratt | 15 | 282 | 62.2
70 | Phil Housley | 12 | 246 | 60.5
71 | Hap Day | 13 | 240 | 62.5
72 | Vladimir Lutchenko | 11 | 230 | 60.1
73 | Brad McCrimmon | 15 | 198 | 67.8
74 | Jimmy Thomson | 16 | 196 | 68.8
75 | Eric Desjardins | 14 | 194 | 67.1
76 | Herb Gardiner | 12 | 173 | 66.6
77 | Art Ross | 13 | 169 | 68.0
78 | Cy Wentworth | 14 | 148 | 70.4
79 | Sergei Gonchar | 11 | 143 | 68.0
80 | Red Horner | 9 | 141 | 65.3
81 | Lennart Svedberg | 7 | 125 | 63.1
82 | Reg Noble | 3 | 116 | 42.3
83 | Gus Mortson | 12 | 106 | 72.2
85 | Adam Foote | 9 | 105 | 69.3
84 | Cyclone Taylor | 2 | 105 | 28.5
86 | Lionel Hitchman | 9 | 104 | 69.4
87 | Moose Vasko | 7 | 103 | 66.3
88 | Gary Suter | 11 | 100 | 71.9
89 | Randy Carlyle | 4 | 90 | 58.5
90 | Doug Mohns | 7 | 89 | 68.3
91 | Derian Hatcher | 9 | 85 | 71.6
92 | Duncan Keith | 5 | 74 | 66.2
93 | Nikolai Sologubov | 5 | 71 | 66.8
94 | Leo Boivin | 8 | 67 | 72.6
95 | Si Griffis | 7 | 59 | 72.6
96 | Viktor Kuzkin | 3 | 54 | 63.0
97 | Neil Colville | 3 | 50 | 64.3
98 | Joe Simpson | 7 | 48 | 74.1
99 | Flash Hollett | 6 | 48 | 73.0
100 | Jean-Guy Talbot | 6 | 47 | 73.2
101 | Jack Crawford | 5 | 47 | 71.6
102 | Ted Green | 3 | 43 | 66.7
103 | Vitaly Davydov | 3 | 42 | 67.0
104 | Brian Rafalski | 3 | 41 | 67.3
105 | Dan Boyle | 2 | 38 | 62.0
106 | Frank Patrick | 3 | 37 | 68.7
107 | Joe Hall | 4 | 32 | 73.0
108 | Red Dutton | 3 | 31 | 70.7
109 | Alexander Gusev | 1 | 30 | 51.0
110 | Jiri Bubla | 2 | 26 | 68.0
111 | Billy Burch | 1 | 22 | 59.0
113 | Lars-Erik Sjoberg | 3 | 20 | 74.3
121 | Bert Corbeau | 2 | 20 | 71.0
112 | Didier Pitre | 1 | 20 | 61.0
114 | Tom Anderson | 1 | 20 | 61.0
115 | Bob Goldham | 4 | 18 | 76.5
116 | Bob Baun | 5 | 17 | 77.6
117 | Ott Heller | 3 | 17 | 75.3
118 | Kevin Hatcher | 1 | 16 | 65.0
119 | Leo Reise | 1 | 15 | 66.0
120 | Jack Marshall | 1 | 14 | 67.0
122 | Glen Harmon | 1 | 13 | 68.0
124 | Craig Hartsburg | 1 | 12 | 69.0
123 | Paul Shmyr | 1 | 12 | 69.0
126 | Teppo Numminen | 4 | 11 | 78.3
125 | Jim Schoenfeld | 1 | 11 | 70.0
127 | Kevin Lowe | 1 | 10 | 71.0
128 | Reijo Ruotsalainen | 1 | 10 | 71.0
129 | Wally Stanowski | 2 | 9 | 76.5
130 | Keith Magnusson | 1 | 8 | 73.0
132 | Kimmo Timonen | 1 | 8 | 73.0
131 | Stefan Persson | 1 | 8 | 73.0
133 | Shea Weber | 1 | 7 | 74.0
134 | Anders Eldebrink | 1 | 6 | 75.0
135 | Carol Vadnais | 1 | 6 | 75.0
137 | Dickie Boon | 1 | 6 | 75.0
136 | Kenny Jonsson | 1 | 6 | 75.0
138 | Craig Ludwig | 1 | 5 | 76.0
139 | Mattias Ohlund | 1 | 4 | 77.0
140 | Jim Neilson | 2 | 3 | 79.5
143 | Mike Green | 1 | 1 | 80.0
141 | Sandis Ozolinsh | 1 | 1 | 80.0
142 | Ulf Samuelsson | 1 | 1 | 80.0

This list is the result from Round 1 of voting to generate a list of players for Round 2. It is not the final result.

Definitions
# of Lists: The number of top 80 lists (out of 23 total lists) on which the player was listed.
Voting Points: The number of voting points the player received. 80 points for 1st, 79 points for 2nd, and so on down to 1 point for 80th.
Average Ranking: The average placement of a player on the lists on which he appeared only. For example, Kevin Lowe was ranked on one list only, at spot #71. His average ranking is 71.

Click to read more...

 

[unknown33]

Matthias Ohlund and Mike Green?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Paul Shmyr?

Or was there really a Paul Shymr?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Matthias Ohlund and Mike Green?

Two-time first team all-star shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

Granted, he's no Paul Shymr....

 

[dao256]

Who on earth didnt put Bobby as #1?????

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Adding a column to show how far a player rose or fell in Round 2

HOH Top 60 Defensemen - Round 1 Voting Results

Rank | Player | # of Lists | Voting Points | Average Ranking | Change
1 | Bobby Orr | 23 | 1839 | 1.0|0
2 | Doug Harvey | 23 | 1806 | 2.5|0
3 | Ray Bourque | 23 | 1790 | 3.2|0
4 | Eddie Shore | 23 | 1775 | 3.8|0
5 | Nicklas Lidstrom | 23 | 1745 | 5.1|0
6 | Denis Potvin | 23 | 1729 | 5.8|0
7 | Red Kelly | 23 | 1695 | 7.3|0
8 | Larry Robinson | 23 | 1667 | 8.5|-1
9 | Slava Fetisov | 23 | 1652 | 9.2|+1
10 | Chris Chelios | 23 | 1622 | 10.5|0
11 | Brad Park | 23 | 1601 | 11.4|0
12 | Pierre Pilote | 23 | 1549 | 13.7|-2
13 | Paul Coffey | 23 | 1546 | 13.8|0
14 | Al MacInnis | 23 | 1503 | 15.7|-4
15 | King Clancy | 23 | 1494 | 16.0|+3
16 | Tim Horton | 23 | 1465 | 17.3|-1
17 | Earl Seibert | 23 | 1439 | 18.4|+1
18 | Scott Stevens | 23 | 1437 | 18.5|-1
19 | Sprague Cleghorn | 23 | 1407 | 19.8|+4
20 | Brian Leetch | 23 | 1320 | 23.6|-3
21 | Chris Pronger | 23 | 1319 | 23.7|+1
22 | Bill Gadsby | 23 | 1314 | 23.9|+1
23 | Borje Salming | 23 | 1303 | 24.3|+1
24 | Dit Clapper | 22 | 1286 | 22.5|0
25 | Serge Savard | 23 | 1242 | 27.0|-3
26 | Valeri Vasiliev | 23 | 1231 | 27.5|+1
27 | Mark Howe | 23 | 1216 | 28.1|+1*
28 | Scott Niedermayer | 23 | 1144 | 31.3|-5
29 | Rod Langway | 23 | 1115 | 32.5|0
30 | Bill Quackenbush | 23 | 1098 | 33.3|+4*
31 | Guy Lapointe | 22 | 1087 | 31.6|-1
32 | Jack Stewart | 23 | 1053 | 35.2|+1
33 | Jacques Laperriere | 23 | 1020 | 36.7|-5
34 | Marcel Pronovost | 23 | 959 | 39.3|0
35 | Lionel Conacher | 22 | 947 | 38.0|0
36 | Butch Bouchard | 23 | 931 | 40.5|-9
37 | J.C. Tremblay | 23 | 928 | 40.7|-3
38 | Eddie Gerard | 21 | 912 | 37.6|+8
39 | Larry Murphy | 23 | 908 | 41.5|-11
40 | Rob Blake | 22 | 838 | 42.9|-4
41 | Zdeno Chara | 22 | 836 | 43.0|-1
42 | Ebbie Goodfellow | 22 | 761 | 46.4|-1
43 | Carl Brewer | 22 | 746 | 47.1|-3
44 | Alexei Kasatonov | 22 | 730 | 47.8|+5
45 | Ching Johnson | 23 | 718 | 49.8|+9
46 | Moose Johnson | 18 | 702 | 42.0|+5
47 | Jan Suchy | 22 | 663 | 50.9|-2
48 | George Boucher | 20 | 658 | 48.1|0
49 | Tom Johnson | 21 | 657 | 49.7|-3
50 | Hod Stuart | 22 | 651 | 51.4|+15
51 | Babe Siebert | 19 | 639 | 47.4|+4
52 | Harry Cameron | 20 | 636 | 49.2|-5
53 | Sylvio Mantha | 23 | 626 | 53.8|-3
54 | Ken Reardon | 17 | 618 | 44.6|+3
55 | Doug Wilson | 23 | 615 | 54.3|0
56 | Alexander Ragulin | 20 | 602 | 50.9
57 | Fern Flaman | 21 | 529 | 55.8
58 | Harry Howell | 22 | 522 | 57.3
59 | Lester Patrick | 20 | 510 | 55.5|+6
60 | Allan Stanley | 22 | 493 | 58.6|+1
61 | Sergei Zubov | 21 | 483 | 58.0
62 | Art Coulter | 21 | 458 | 59.2|+8
63 | Harvey Pulford | 17 | 396 | 57.7|+3
64 | Vladimir Konstantinov | 17 | 341 | 60.9
65 | Pat Stapleton | 20 | 336 | 64.2
66 | Frantisek Pospisil | 14 | 320 | 58.1|+8
67 | Mike Grant | 12 | 310 | 55.2
68 | Bill White | 18 | 284 | 65.2
69 | Babe Pratt | 15 | 282 | 62.2
70 | Phil Housley | 12 | 246 | 60.5
71 | Hap Day | 13 | 240 | 62.5
72 | Vladimir Lutchenko | 11 | 230 | 60.1
73 | Brad McCrimmon | 15 | 198 | 67.8
74 | Jimmy Thomson | 16 | 196 | 68.8
75 | Eric Desjardins | 14 | 194 | 67.1
76 | Herb Gardiner | 12 | 173 | 66.6
77 | Art Ross | 13 | 169 | 68.0
78 | Cy Wentworth | 14 | 148 | 70.4
79 | Sergei Gonchar | 11 | 143 | 68.0
80 | Red Horner | 9 | 141 | 65.3
81 | Lennart Svedberg | 7 | 125 | 63.1
82 | Reg Noble | 3 | 116 | 42.3
83 | Gus Mortson | 12 | 106 | 72.2
85 | Adam Foote | 9 | 105 | 69.3
84 | Cyclone Taylor | 2 | 105 | 28.5
86 | Lionel Hitchman | 9 | 104 | 69.4
87 | Moose Vasko | 7 | 103 | 66.3
88 | Gary Suter | 11 | 100 | 71.9
89 | Randy Carlyle | 4 | 90 | 58.5
90 | Doug Mohns | 7 | 89 | 68.3
91 | Derian Hatcher | 9 | 85 | 71.6
92 | Duncan Keith | 5 | 74 | 66.2
93 | Nikolai Sologubov | 5 | 71 | 66.8
94 | Leo Boivin | 8 | 67 | 72.6
95 | Si Griffis | 7 | 59 | 72.6
96 | Viktor Kuzkin | 3 | 54 | 63.0
97 | Neil Colville | 3 | 50 | 64.3
98 | Joe Simpson | 7 | 48 | 74.1
99 | Flash Hollett | 6 | 48 | 73.0
100 | Jean-Guy Talbot | 6 | 47 | 73.2
101 | Jack Crawford | 5 | 47 | 71.6
102 | Ted Green | 3 | 43 | 66.7
103 | Vitaly Davydov | 3 | 42 | 67.0
104 | Brian Rafalski | 3 | 41 | 67.3
105 | Dan Boyle | 2 | 38 | 62.0
106 | Frank Patrick | 3 | 37 | 68.7
107 | Joe Hall | 4 | 32 | 73.0
108 | Red Dutton | 3 | 31 | 70.7
109 | Alexander Gusev | 1 | 30 | 51.0
110 | Jiri Bubla | 2 | 26 | 68.0
111 | Billy Burch | 1 | 22 | 59.0
113 | Lars-Erik Sjoberg | 3 | 20 | 74.3
121 | Bert Corbeau | 2 | 20 | 71.0
112 | Didier Pitre | 1 | 20 | 61.0
114 | Tom Anderson | 1 | 20 | 61.0
115 | Bob Goldham | 4 | 18 | 76.5
116 | Bob Baun | 5 | 17 | 77.6
117 | Ott Heller | 3 | 17 | 75.3
118 | Kevin Hatcher | 1 | 16 | 65.0
119 | Leo Reise | 1 | 15 | 66.0
120 | Jack Marshall | 1 | 14 | 67.0
122 | Glen Harmon | 1 | 13 | 68.0
124 | Craig Hartsburg | 1 | 12 | 69.0
123 | Paul Shymr | 1 | 12 | 69.0
126 | Teppo Numminen | 4 | 11 | 78.3
125 | Jim Schoenfeld | 1 | 11 | 70.0
127 | Kevin Lowe | 1 | 10 | 71.0
128 | Reijo Ruotsalainen | 1 | 10 | 71.0
129 | Wally Stanowski | 2 | 9 | 76.5
130 | Keith Magnusson | 1 | 8 | 73.0
132 | Kimmo Timonen | 1 | 8 | 73.0
131 | Stefan Persson | 1 | 8 | 73.0
133 | Shea Weber | 1 | 7 | 74.0
134 | Anders Eldebrink | 1 | 6 | 75.0
135 | Carol Vadnais | 1 | 6 | 75.0
137 | Dickie Boon | 1 | 6 | 75.0
136 | Kenny Jonsson | 1 | 6 | 75.0
138 | Craig Ludwig | 1 | 5 | 76.0
139 | Mattias Ohlund | 1 | 4 | 77.0
140 | Jim Neilson | 2 | 3 | 79.5
143 | Mike Green | 1 | 1 | 80.0
141 | Sandis Ozolinsh | 1 | 1 | 80.0
142 | Ulf Samuelsson | 1 | 1 | 80.0

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I should add that if anyone wants a copy of the aggregate list in excel format, please send an email to hohtopplayers at yahoo dot com (posting the address that way because we got inundated with spam after posting it the real way just once on this board). You aren't going to get any information that isn't eventually going to be posted here, but if you want it, it's out there.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The players who rose by five or more spots during Round 2 were primarily players who from the earliest era of North American hockey (Stuart, Gerard, M. Johnson, Patrick) and European players (Pospisil, Kasatonov). Four of those blueliners never played a single game in the NHL, and Patrick played in just two contests. Perhaps an initial lack of familiarity with these relatively obscure players could explain why they were given more appropriate recognition during Round 2.

Two other player who jumped by five or more spots during Round 2 were C. Johnson and Coulter, both of whom peaked during the 1930s. Again, a lack of familiarity with these ancient players may have contributed to their low rank during Round 1.

Quackenbush was the last player to soar five or more positions - he's the only post-WWII NHL player to rise by at least five spots.

====

Five players fell by five or more spots. It's safe to assume that all of us have seen Murphy and Niedermayer play; they're familiar names to us and that could explain their relatively high ranks during Round 1. Murphy was criticized for never having a dominant peak, and Niedermayer was criticized for having a far shorter peak than most people realize. Although those are both valid criticisms, there's also the possibility of us being too familiar with those players, and perhaps exaggerating their weaknesses. I can explain Niedermayer's weaknesses with far more subtlety and precision than I can for, say, Reardon. Then again, that works both ways, as the same is true for their strengths.

Two great Hab defenseman, Laperriere and Bouchard, fell significantly, as did Cameron. Not sure if there is a specific reason for this.

 

[plusandminus]

This may be either ignored or considered a bad idea, but I try to post it anyway... If it's a bad suggestion, I suppose it would come as a surprise considering it's me making it.

Would it be possible to just post a table, similar to the one posted here, with columns showing each voter's votes added?

Voters: 1=TheDevilMadeMe, 2=Overpass, 3=Seventieslord and so on...
Or even better: TDDM, Over, Seve and so on...

Rank | Player | # of Lists | Voting Points | Average Ranking | TDMM|Over|Seve|...
1| Bobby Orr |23 |1839 |1.0 |1|1|1|...
2| Doug Harvey | 23|1806|2.5|?|?|?|...

The same then being done for each round, with non-voting participants columns either excluded or empty.

Then one would be able to instantly see how each voter has voted, and also instantly being able to compare his votes to the other voters or the overall (etc.). Sortable columns would be great.

Perhaps there are already Excel sheets looking like above. If so, it might be even easier to post it here.

So far, I haven't seen any consideration being done in regard to the non-voting/participating followers of the project, so maybe it needs a participator to suggest things like this.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Overall, I think it's a solid list. The guys that deserve to fall like Murphy, Laperriere, and Bouchard whereas guys like Hod Stuart and Ching Johnson deservedly moved up when they were examined closer.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Two great Hab defenseman, Laperriere and Bouchard, fell significantly, as did Cameron. Not sure if there is a specific reason for this.

Bouchard falling is easy to explain - I don't think a lot of round 1 voters realized just how short his prime was, nor how weak the competition of the era was during his prime.

Laperriere is harder to explain. I would imagine some voters were surprised he wasn't as important to the Canadiens' playoff success in the 1960s as they may have thought. I think it's more likely that he just got caught up in a numbers game - he's a relatively "boring" candidate who got leapfrogged by Eddie Gerard and Hod Stuart, then Pronovost and Conacher (both of whom are more "exciting") maintained their positions while Lapperiere fell behind them. I would be interested in comments from voters who voted Lapperriere higher in round 1 than in round 2.

As for Cameron, I think he got hurt by unfavorable comparisons to Georges Boucher, then got caught in a bit of a numbers game himself when other worthy early era players like Lester Patrick came in.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This may be either ignored or considered a bad idea, but I try to post it anyway... If it's a bad suggestion, I suppose it would come as a surprise considering it's me making it.

Would it be possible to just post a table, similar to the one posted here, with columns showing each voter's votes added?

Voters: 1=TheDevilMadeMe, 2=Overpass, 3=Seventieslord and so on...
Or even better: TDDM, Over, Seve and so on...

Rank | Player | # of Lists | Voting Points | Average Ranking | TDMM|Over|Seve|...
1| Bobby Orr |23 |1839 |1.0 |1|1|1|...
2| Doug Harvey | 23|1806|2.5|?|?|?|...

The same then being done for each round, with non-voting participants columns either excluded or empty.

Then one would be able to instantly see how each voter has voted, and also instantly being able to compare his votes to the other voters or the overall (etc.). Sortable columns would be great.

Perhaps there are already Excel sheets looking like above. If so, it might be even easier to post it here.

So far, I haven't seen any consideration being done in regard to the non-voting/participating followers of the project, so maybe it needs a participator to suggest things like this.

I'll talk to overpass, but I believe the next step is to release every voter's complete record one at a time. After we do that, making a graph like this might be worth considering. (Or maybe you can help us out and do it, once we release all the source data).

 

[overpass]

This may be either ignored or considered a bad idea, but I try to post it anyway... If it's a bad suggestion, I suppose it would come as a surprise considering it's me making it.

Would it be possible to just post a table, similar to the one posted here, with columns showing each voter's votes added?

Voters: 1=TheDevilMadeMe, 2=Overpass, 3=Seventieslord and so on...
Or even better: TDDM, Over, Seve and so on...

Rank | Player | # of Lists | Voting Points | Average Ranking | TDMM|Over|Seve|...
1| Bobby Orr |23 |1839 |1.0 |1|1|1|...
2| Doug Harvey | 23|1806|2.5|?|?|?|...

The same then being done for each round, with non-voting participants columns either excluded or empty.

Then one would be able to instantly see how each voter has voted, and also instantly being able to compare his votes to the other voters or the overall (etc.). Sortable columns would be great.

Perhaps there are already Excel sheets looking like above. If so, it might be even easier to post it here.

So far, I haven't seen any consideration being done in regard to the non-voting/participating followers of the project, so maybe it needs a participator to suggest things like this.

Our plan was to post the individual lists separately.

Your suggestion is a good one for presentation and analysis. I just don't know if a 25 column table would fit very well in a thread.

 

[plusandminus]

I'll talk to overpass, but I believe the next step is to release every voter's complete record one at a time. After we do that, making a graph like this might be worth considering. (Or maybe you can help us out and do it, once we release all the source data).

Thanks for replying to my post.

Yes, I likely would be prepared to help you out. But cutting and pasting posts/tables here, would likely take too much time and energy. I suppose it would be easier to do it using the Excel sheets. (I now have Excel. Got it relatively recently.)

If I had been running a project like this (and I don't mean I would do it better than, or as good as, you have done), I would probably have made Excel tables similar to the ones I suggested above. Have the players in one column, and then make a column for each voter. Insert votes. Then write a formula to summarize the votes (where rank is converted to a voting point, like "if rank is 1 to 10 then votepoint=11-rank else votepoint=0", or "if rank is 1 to 80 then votepoint=81-rank else votepoint=0"). I'm not good at Excel, and it really doesn't matter to me if the cells show place or point.
If Overpass was the one doing the summarizing, maybe what I asked for in the previous post has more or less already been done/prepared.

 

[plusandminus]

Our plan was to post the individual lists separately.

Your suggestion is a good one for presentation and analysis. I just don't know if a 25 column table would fit very well in a thread.

Thank you for replying.
You are welcome to try. I think it would fit, especially if you keep each column name/header short.

 

[plusandminus]

Testing if it might fit:

Rank | Player | Lists | Pts | Avg |1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11|12|13|14|15|16|17|18|19|20|21|22|23
1|Bobby Orr]|23|1839|1.0 |1|1|1||||||||||||||||||||||
2|Doug Harvey|23|1806|2.5|?|?|?||||||||||||||||||||||
64|Vladimir Konstantinov|17|341|60.9|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10

Rank | Player | Lists | Pts | Avg |tdm|ovp|sev|der|tar|can|xxx|xxx|xxx|xxx|xxx|xxx|13x|14x|15x|16x|17x|18x|19x|20x|21x|22x|23x
1|Bobby Orr]|23|1839|1.0 |1|1|1||||||||||||||||||||||
2|Doug Harvey|23|1806|2.5|?|?|?||||||||||||||||||||||
64|Vladimir Konstantinov|17|341|60.9|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10|10

Edit: From my viewpoint, both tables easily fit. If I decrease the size of the window, it adapts and still fits nicely. It might, however, look bad on a smartphone.

 

[Dom]

Why not present the result of your work on a google blog or the equivalent? It is worthy of being consulted by more than just the readers of the HOH section.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bouchard falling is easy to explain - I don't think a lot of round 1 voters realized just how short his prime was, nor how weak the competition of the era was during his prime.

Laperriere is harder to explain. I would imagine some voters were surprised he wasn't as important to the Canadiens' playoff success in the 1960s as they may have thought. I think it's more likely that he just got caught up in a numbers game - he's a relatively "boring" candidate who got leapfrogged by Eddie Gerard and Hod Stuart, then Pronovost and Conacher (both of whom are more "exciting") maintained their positions while Lapperiere fell behind them. I would be interested in comments from voters who voted Lapperriere higher in round 1 than in round 2.

As for Cameron, I think he got hurt by unfavorable comparisons to Georges Boucher, then got caught in a bit of a numbers game himself when other worthy early era players like Lester Patrick came in.

Maybe because I had him at 22 on my original list, he ended up higher than everyone else wanted him to be.

I stumped for him heavily during the second round but its hard to go against the big hitters like yourself, TDMM.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Maybe because I had him at 22 on my original list, he ended up higher than everyone else wanted him to be.

I stumped for him heavily during the second round but its hard to go against the big hitters like yourself, TDMM.

I don't remember spending much time making a case against Laperriere? I said he was injured a couple of times in the playoffs and his team won without him.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't remember spending much time making a case against Laperriere? I said he was injured a couple of times in the playoffs and his team won without him.

You don't realize your own power.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You don't realize your own power.

Meh, if I had that much power, Lionel Conacher would have dropped 10-15 spots

I was actually surprised to see Laperriere fall below Conacher, especially considering the gap between them in aggregate points after round 1. After Gerard shot up, I kind of expected the Laperriere, Pronovost, Conacher trio to slide down a spot each, but Pronovost and Conacher maintained their spots and Laperriere is the one who suffered.

Edit: remember that round 8 (where we added 36-40) was the round where 2 new candidates (Hod Stuart and Ching Johnson) finished 1-2. Laperriere was the highest ranked of the leftovers. Makes me wonder how high Hod and Ching would have finished if they had appeared earlier

 

[reckoning]

Paul Shmyr played in the WHA through all seven years that the league existed. Though he did play a few season before and after that in the NHL, those seven years were the prime years of his career, so it makes him tough to compare against NHL players.

But he was selected to the WHA's 1st All-Star Team three times, and was one of only three WHA players (along with Bobby Hull and Marc Tardif) to be invited to the Team Canada training camp for the inaugural Canada Cup.

He didn't make my top 80 list, but he's a perfectly reasonable choice.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The players who rose by five or more spots during Round 2 were primarily players who from the earliest era of North American hockey (Stuart, Gerard, M. Johnson, Patrick) and European players (Pospisil, Kasatonov). Four of those blueliners never played a single game in the NHL, and Patrick played in just two contests. Perhaps an initial lack of familiarity with these relatively obscure players could explain why they were given more appropriate recognition during Round 2.

Two other player who jumped by five or more spots during Round 2 were C. Johnson and Coulter, both of whom peaked during the 1930s. Again, a lack of familiarity with these ancient players may have contributed to their low rank during Round 1.

Quackenbush was the last player to soar five or more positions - he's the only post-WWII NHL player to rise by at least five spots.

====

Five players fell by five or more spots. It's safe to assume that all of us have seen Murphy and Niedermayer play; they're familiar names to us and that could explain their relatively high ranks during Round 1. Murphy was criticized for never having a dominant peak, and Niedermayer was criticized for having a far shorter peak than most people realize. Although those are both valid criticisms, there's also the possibility of us being too familiar with those players, and perhaps exaggerating their weaknesses. I can explain Niedermayer's weaknesses with far more subtlety and precision than I can for, say, Reardon. Then again, that works both ways, as the same is true for their strengths.

Two great Hab defenseman, Laperriere and Bouchard, fell significantly, as did Cameron. Not sure if there is a specific reason for this.

Quack actually only went up 4 positions (30 to tied for 26). Or 3.5 if you like. My math was wrong

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I believe these are the only players who were added in their first round of eligibility:

Sprague Cleghorn
Eddie Gerard
Hod Stuart
Ching Johnson
Art Coulter
Frantisek Pospisil

Hod Stuart and Ching Johnson are the only two players who finished ahead of all returning candidates, finishing 1-2 in round 8. This means they are the most likely candidates to have finished higher if they came up earlier.

Moose Johnson almost joined them in round 8 - missing the cut by only a few votes as a first time candidate

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Players who didn't come up for vote who I most wish did:

Art Ross - is he really any worse than Lester Patrick? I don't know.

Lennart Svedberg - I would have liked to discuss his place among other Europeans. He's definitely below Suchy, but how does he compare to Pospisil, Ragulin, and Lutchenko?

Eric Desjardins - IMO, he was a better defenseman than Zubov or Housley, both of who we discussed. I don't think he peaked as high as Konstantinov, but he probably had a better career. I would have loved to see overpass's stats for him.

Herb Gardiner - I'm at fault as much as anyone for this - IIRC, he was a late cut from my list. I doubt he's top 60, but would have been worth discussing his unique career.

I also had Derian Hatcher fairly high (top 75 not top 60). Would have been interesting to compare his career to Zubov and possibly even Harvey Pulford. IMO, if it wasn't for Scott Stevens, Hatcher could have been the defining "dead puck" defenseman - meaning a guy who epitomizes the style of play in the era. Hatchet is pretty cut and dry though- if he wasn't on your list already, I doubt you add him.