HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All Time

[GuineaPig]

Be the judge yourself.

I think it's telling that this video essentially doubles as a Spezza highlight reel.

 

[tarheelhockey]

No, he was drafted in 2008 by a Senator team, one season removed from the 2007 SC finals.

No relationship to his present day performance or going forward.

My point is that Karlsson didn't choose to play for such a mediocre team, that's a circumstantial factor beyond his control. His fate not to play on a true Cup contender until at least 2018 was sealed the moment his name was called at the podium.

The fact that he dragged them as far as the ECF as their clear-cut MVP is as good as you can realistically expect from a player in his position.

 

[Canadiens1958]

As if.............

My point is that Karlsson didn't choose to play for such a mediocre team, that's a circumstantial factor beyond his control. His fate not to play on a true Cup contender until at least 2018 was sealed the moment his name was called at the podium.

The fact that he dragged them as far as the ECF as their clear-cut MVP is as good as you can realistically expect from a player in his position.

As if any draftee has such a choice?

The issue is what the drafted player accomplishes given the team circumstances.

 

[Theokritos]

As if any draftee has such a choice?

The issue is what the drafted player accomplishes given the team circumstances.

I think that was his point. Given the team circumstances in case of Erik Karlsson, he might never reach the Conference Finals with Ottawa again, let alone win the Cup. And that would hurt his resume on paper and his standing in the eye of some observers, even if he deserved better based on his performance.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Coaching

I think that was his point. Given the team circumstances in case of Erik Karlsson, he might never reach the Conference Finals with Ottawa again, let alone win the Cup. And that would hurt his resume on paper and his standing in the eye of some observers, even if he deserved better based on his performance.

Nothing to do with the draft. Senators drafted well since 2008, but had very poor coaching - Clouston, MacLean, Cameron until Guy Boucher was hired.

Playoff`s, Karlsson habitually outplayed his coaching. This year the coaching more than caught up.

 

[Theokritos]

Nothing to do with the draft. Senators drafted well since 2008, but had very poor coaching - Clouston, MacLean, Cameron until Guy Boucher was hired.

Karlsson was drafted by the Senators. He didn't pick the team, the team picked him.

 

[MXD]

Karlsson was drafted by the Senators. He didn't pick the team, the team picked him.

Those Soviet Russians.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Draft

Karlsson was drafted by the Senators. He didn't pick the team, the team picked him.

Does anyone pick the team that drafts them since 1970?

 

[GuineaPig]

Jagr did.

 

[MXD]

Does anyone pick the team that drafts them since 1970?

It'S a bit out of the purview of this thread, but Michel Goulet absolutely did exactly that.

 

[overpass]

i think his point is that we can probably safely assume that karlsson was more responsible for spezza's career year (and not the other way around) than leetch was for the third or fourth best scoring season of messier's career?

Karlsson and Spezza definitely had a good thing going in 11/12. They both saw the game on an elite level and made some spectacular plays together as well as just generally clicking very well.

Karlsson has never before or since played with a forward on Spezza's level for vision and offensive awareness, and Spezza has never played with another defenceman who could match Karlsson's vision.

I think it was 50-50, or close enough. Neither "made" the other and both brought a lot to the table in that partnership. Maybe 60-40 in Karlsson's favour when you consider that fewer defencemen than forwards have that level of offensive vision.

 

[Theokritos]

Does anyone pick the team that drafts them since 1970?

No, but some have the good fortune to be drafted by teams with good rosters and/or good coaching and others don't.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Jagr did.

Zing.

If I had to guess, Karlsson will fall just short of Potvin/top-5 unless he keeps blocking shots with his bones. I love a shot-blocking defenseman, but taking a bad one off the foot any time before April can take a Norris season down to a 2nd Team selection or worse.

But he's been the best defenseman 2, 3, maybe 4 times now, he's getting smarter, and his leadership qualities are through the roof. I don't like the idea of re-visiting players every year to ask Is he Leetch yet? Is he Robinson yet? Is he Lidstrom yet? Is he Shore yet? Until he has longevity and maybe another 5 years after his career to digest not only his performance but the relative strength of his era, there's going to be too many questions to have much of an historical discussion. There's a good chance we'll conclude that being 3rd in scoring among defensemen in 2017 is a much, much bigger deal than being 1st in 2001.

But I don't know about the rest of you, but Karlsson would be top-3 on my Hart ballot in 2016 and 2017, and that's a pretty good sign for a young defenseman.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Nothing to do with the draft.

It wasn't a commentary on the draft. I was simply saying that Karlsson's lack of team success isn't something to hold against him. It's a circumstance beyond his control.

 

[seventieslord]

I think Karlsson is noticeably ahead of Leetch after 8 seasons. There's a big gap between "noticeably ahead of Leetch" and "top-10 all-time", though. Also, it should be noted that with Leetch, the way his career ended up was probably disappointing considering how the first 9 seasons went, right?

 

[seventieslord]

It wasn't a commentary on the draft. I was simply saying that Karlsson's lack of team success isn't something to hold against him. It's a circumstance beyond his control.

Don't worry. Everyone else knows what you mean.

 

[MXD]

I think Karlsson is noticeably ahead of Leetch after 8 seasons. There's a big gap between "noticeably ahead of Leetch" and "top-10 all-time", though. Also, it should be noted that with Leetch, the way his career ended up was probably disappointing considering how the first 9 seasons went, right?

Well, Leetch was noticeably better all-around than Karlsson when he came in and has better playoffs. His competition on D was somewhat better (this generation of D is pretty good though).

That's pretty much all that favors Leetch at this point.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yeah, for me it's not so much that Karlsson's blown away Leetch's achievements... it's more that in order for them to end up in the same tier, he'd have to fall off pretty hard the same way Leetch did. While that's certainly a possibility, I find it unlikely enough that I'm not compelled to think of them in the same tier anymore.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I think Karlsson is noticeably ahead of Leetch after 8 seasons. There's a big gap between "noticeably ahead of Leetch" and "top-10 all-time", though. Also, it should be noted that with Leetch, the way his career ended up was probably disappointing considering how the first 9 seasons went, right?

As much as I like Karlsson and that he represents a huge personal victory for me on another front...I can't agree and believe it to actually be the opposite.
In fact, to the degree that I honestly can't see how anyone could see it that way after their first 8 seasons and would be quite interested in the criteria that allows you to see it that way.

Like you said, Karlsson is going to have plenty of opportunity to catch and pass Leetch after season 9 but make no mistake, he most certainly DOES have to catch him first.

Yeah, for me it's not so much that Karlsson's blown away Leetch's achievements... it's more that in order for them to end up in the same tier, he'd have to fall off pretty hard the same way Leetch did. While that's certainly a possibility, I find it unlikely enough that I'm not compelled to think of them in the same tier anymore.

It's not like anyone could have predicted Leetch's fall off after season 9 either.
I mean you're basically saying that you believe Karlsson is on a higher tier based on projection and what he hasn't even done yet.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's not like anyone could have predicted Leetch's fall off after season 9 either.
I mean you're basically saying that you believe Karlsson is on a higher tier based on projection and what he hasn't even done yet.

I'm saying it's abnormal for an all-time great talent to fall off the way Leetch did, so unless Karlsson starts showing signs of doing that I'm just going to assume it's not going to happen. Kind of like how I'm going to assume that McDavid isn't going to be the next Cheechoo, and Price isn't going to be the next Carey. It's not that those things *can't* happen, but they very likely won't.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Injuries Plus

I'm saying it's abnormal for an all-time great talent to fall off the way Leetch did, so unless Karlsson starts showing signs of doing that I'm just going to assume it's not going to happen. Kind of like how I'm going to assume that McDavid isn't going to be the next Cheechoo, and Price isn't going to be the next Carey. It's not that those things *can't* happen, but they very likely won't.

Happens quite a bit though. Injuries being the main reason.

Limiting the discussion to defencemen, O6 era onwards, You would have Tim Horton - post devestating check by Bill Gadsby, Red Kelly - playing thru 1959 injury then moved to forward, Doug Barkley - lost an eye, Jacques Laperrierre early Norris than a series of injuries, Serge Savard - two serious broken legs. Bobby Orr - everyone is familiar with the story, Brad Park reduced to a crawl,Denis Potvin, Mark Howe,Paul Coffey - game did not mature, the Vladimir Konstantinov tragedy, ...., Andrei Markov - knee injuries, Aaron Ekblad post. Far from an exhaustive list.

Erik Karlsson - achilles tendon.

Seems that defencemen are not destined to have Gordie Howe type longevity.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Happens quite a bit though. Injuries being the main reason.

Limiting the discussion to defencemen, O6 era onwards, You would have Tim Horton - post devestating check by Bill Gadsby, Red Kelly - playing thru 1959 injury then moved to forward, Doug Barkley - lost an eye, Jacques Laperrierre early Norris than a series of injuries, Serge Savard - two serious broken legs. Bobby Orr - everyone is familiar with the story, Brad Park reduced to a crawl,Denis Potvin, Mark Howe,Paul Coffey - game did not mature, the Vladimir Konstantinov tragedy, ...., Andrei Markov - knee injuries, Aaron Ekblad post. Far from an exhaustive list.

Erik Karlsson - achilles tendon.

Seems that defencemen are not destined to have Gordie Howe type longevity.

what a list. if anything, it tells us that we were very spoiled with the bourque, chelios, stevens, macinnis generation. spoiled to the point where we expect that to be the norm.

on the other hand, might this be generational? meaning the kinds of injuries that completely changed horton and savard, ended orr's career, etc, were somewhat reversable or mitigatable for the 80s guys (i would include mark howe -- who in fact continued to improve after his catastrophic injury -- in that category).

and perhaps different kinds of career arcs are also generational due to training? odd that other than pronger the greats who came in after leetch didn't even blossom until around year 8: lidstrom (yr 7), blake (yr 8), chara (yr 7), niedermayer (yr 11[!!!]).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

From an all-star perspective, Tim Horton had some of his best seasons very late in his career

 

[Canadiens1958]

Skating

what a list. if anything, it tells us that we were very spoiled with the bourque, chelios, stevens, macinnis generation. spoiled to the point where we expect that to be the norm.

on the other hand, might this be generational? meaning the kinds of injuries that completely changed horton and savard, ended orr's career, etc, were somewhat reversable or mitigatable for the 80s guys (i would include mark howe -- who in fact continued to improve after his catastrophic injury -- in that category).

and perhaps different kinds of career arcs are also generational due to training? odd that other than pronger the greats who came in after leetch didn't even blossom until around year 8: lidstrom (yr 7), blake (yr 8), chara (yr 7), niedermayer (yr 11[!!!]).

Skating. Orr, Savard, Park, Leetch before the injuries struck were elite level skaters, Karlsson is at the same level. Bourque was excellent. Niedermayer was elite but sheltered in NJ. Rest, solid were very good at best. Chara is well ......... Chris Pronger had injury issues.

Present group. P.K. Subban post injury is not skating as well, Neither is Ryan McDonagh post concussion. Letang has a long history of injuries, Tyson Barrie has not been the same since his knee injury. Just a partial list. Inherent in the game across generations.

 

[tjcurrie]

Boy am I embarrassed by my comments on page 1. Forgive me please fellas. I've learned much since my rookie season. Thank you vets.

Anyways, any chance things change and my boy Sergei Zubov cracks this list if he gets the HHOF nod this month?

I tweeted to Putin the other day, asking him to pull some strings for his fellow Ruskie.