HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time (Preliminary and General Discussion)

[Leaf Lander]

Coffey was 17th in my list, and I suspect I'm of thoses who ranked him "low".

The guys below him in my list?
McInnis
Stevens
Savard

While a point can certainly be made for McInnis (effective no1 D-Men for at least 7 or 8 more years than Coffey, better or much better defensively, probably a better offensive contributor from 32 years old onward), i'd honestly be unable to make such a case with Stevens and Savard.

Interestingly, Coffey always ends up really close to Tim Horton is those exercises, which is funny as they are pretty much polar opposites.

Macinnis was still going strong as all round defenceman at age 40 and coffey had been retired since his mid 30's and he was a shadow of himself from age 32 onward where as al macinns had a few more seasons left in him until his unfortunate eye injury

coffey imo wasn't a better all round defenceman through out his entire career then macinnis

I always found that People here tend to overrate coffey for some odd reason

Macinnis flourished in 2 eras the high scoring era of the 80's and late 90's then the dead puck era till just after the lockout when his eye injury occurred.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I have always felt that Hatcher has been somewhat overrated on this board for whatever reason. His general skillset was uniquely suited towards the Dead Puck Era and pre-lockout NHL when he could run interference on opposing forwards or engage in some pretty blatant obstruction tactics with impunity. However, following the lock-out it was clear that he had become a liability as an everyday NHL defenceman. I don't believe that players should be punished for the period in which they play and the trends that dictate the style of play, so perhaps I'm being unduly harsh on Hatcher, but I never got the impression (other than his fine 2003 season) that he was one of the better defencemen in the league, let alone a legitimate stalwart, which is pretty much what a player would have to be in order to merit a spot on an all-time positional ranking list.

He was a very good physical defenceman at his peak who could provide an intimidation factor to opposing forwards, encouraging them towards the outside, but he was a fairly poor skater who provided little in the way of offence for a debatable top-tier defender. He had seasons in which he just scraped to 30 points, which is comparable to Adam Foote and latter career Scott Stevens, but I never considered him near to their equal on the defensive end. And quite frankly, given his weakness in terms of skating and relatively slow speed, I don't think that his defensive game was nearly as dominant as has been portrayed by some observers. On the positive end of things for Hatcher is the fact that Dallas used him upwards of 27 to 28 minutes per game at one point during his peak seasons (aged 27-30), which means that he shouldered significant responsibility against the opposition's best forwards, but perhaps my judgement is being clouded by his later struggles within the more speed and skill oriented style that has defined the post-lockout NHL.

I always thought Hatcher was quite a bit more dominant than Adam Foote. Hatcher was the 2nd best defensive defenseman of the dead puck era after Stevens, IMO. Foote was very good, but he didn't suffocate the opponent's offense like Hatcher did. The Norris record (Hatcher has one, Foote does not) supports this. I bet a lot of people forget that Hatcher was Dallas' captain when they were a perennial contender that went to back to back finals.

Foote gets overrated because of what he did for Team Canada, IMO.

 

[Epsilon]

I always thought Hatcher was quite a bit more dominant than Adam Foote. Hatcher was the 2nd best defensive defenseman of the dead puck era after Stevens, IMO. Foote was very good, but he didn't suffocate the opponent's offense like Hatcher did. The Norris record (Hatcher has one, Foote does not) supports this. I bet a lot of people forget that Hatcher was Dallas' captain when they were a perennial contender that went to back to back finals.

Foote gets overrated because of what he did for Team Canada, IMO.

I was actually debating between a few defensive defensemen of the late 1980s-early 2000s era for inclusion on my list (I felt it was a "category" that was definitely under-represented, if that makes sense), and I came to the same conclusion as you with respect to Hatcher and Foote. Neither of them made my top 80 though, I went with Ulf Samuelsson instead, and I'm sure I'll catch some grief for that one but I'll try to defend it later (of course, none of these guys are getting a sniff of the top 60).

 

[plusandminus]

I always thought Hatcher was quite a bit more dominant than Adam Foote. Hatcher was the 2nd best defensive defenseman of the dead puck era after Stevens, IMO. Foote was very good, but he didn't suffocate the opponent's offense like Hatcher did. The Norris record (Hatcher has one, Foote does not) supports this. I bet a lot of people forget that Hatcher was Dallas' captain when they were a perennial contender that went to back to back finals.

Foote gets overrated because of what he did for Team Canada, IMO.

Just out of curiousity... Am I right that most people here agree that Hatcher had a playing style that was much better suited for "dead puck era" hockey, than if he had played in for example the first half of the 1980s?
Maybe a bit like Paul Coffey having his prime during a very high scoring era?

Some players may have been more "lucky" or "unlucky" (I know different people here think differently about luck) in matching their playing style/ability with the style of the era they played in?
Example... Some players have proved they can play great almost no matter what the game looks like, while others may be excel at one type of game but being quite mediocre during others. Norris Trophy and AST is often mentioned here. If theoretically player A is top 4 during a few seasons, and otherwise mediocre, while player B succeeds during almost any circumstances but is "always" just outside of top 4, player B may be a bit disfavoured..?


Finally... I don't know if there will be any European participants, but would appreciate if you guys try to give the European stars who didn't play (or succeed) in NHL a chance. There have been, and is, great hockey outside the NHL.
Also, a player may not be suited for the NHL style of play (or living, etc.), especially during the 1970s-1980s, but still be a great player. There may probably also be NHL stars who are great in the NHL, but who might end up like average players if put in another context/environment.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I always thought Hatcher was quite a bit more dominant than Adam Foote. Hatcher was the 2nd best defensive defenseman of the dead puck era after Stevens, IMO. Foote was very good, but he didn't suffocate the opponent's offense like Hatcher did. The Norris record (Hatcher has one, Foote does not) supports this. I bet a lot of people forget that Hatcher was Dallas' captain when they were a perennial contender that went to back to back finals.

Foote gets overrated because of what he did for Team Canada, IMO.

Votes for the Norris?

 

[Epsilon]

Votes for the Norris?

I assumed he meant finalist (i.e. top 3) finishes.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I was actually debating between a few defensive defensemen of the late 1980s-early 2000s era for inclusion on my list (I felt it was a "category" that was definitely under-represented, if that makes sense), and I came to the same conclusion as you with respect to Hatcher and Foote. Neither of them made my top 80 though, I went with Ulf Samuelsson instead, and I'm sure I'll catch some grief for that one but I'll try to defend it later (of course, none of these guys are getting a sniff of the top 60).

Eh, I can't see Ulf Samuelsson being the top defenseman on a Cup winner like Foote in 1996 or Hatcher in 1999. (No, I'm not forgetting about Zubov; he didn't become better than Hatcher until several years after the Cup win). Edit: Maybe I did forget about Ozolinsch; I guess he and Foote were co-#1s in 1996, each with a different role.

Votes for the Norris?

A Norris record. Hatcher has one; Foote doesn't. Hatcher has a 3rd and a 7th place finish in Norris voting. Adam Foote never received multiple votes for the Norris trophy. For what its worth, Ulf has a 10th place finish, probably with a handful of votes.

A Norris record isn't the be-all end-all of defensemen, but in this case, it confirms what I saw when watching these players - Hatcher was the more dominant player on the ice.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

For those wondering where we are at now - I sent another big group of lists to the screeners. Anyone who has sent in a list already will get 1 shot to make corrections if screeners find a problem with it. Anyone who hasn't sent in a list yet is free to do so, but will not get a redo if screeners don't accept the first try.

Hoping to start Round 2 some time next week.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Sent in my 2nd list as headcold clouded my judgement and I double listed 2 guys.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Heh. I had Ted Green ranked eightieth on my list as well.

It wouldn't surprise me if some people actually ranked Ted Green ahead of Mike Green.

 

[Dreakmur]

It wouldn't surprise me if some people actually ranked Ted Green ahead of Mike Green.

Shouldn't everone? Ted is way better than Mike.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Shouldn't everone? Ted is way better than Mike.

That will be an interesting argument when we get to round 2.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That will be an interesting argument when we get to round 2.

It's an argument we'll only have if they both end up in the top 75 or so of the aggregate list.

Neither one was in my top 80...

 

[Hardyvan123]

It's an argument you'll only have if they both end up in the top 75 or so of the aggregate list.

Neither one was in my top 80...

That's true as I doubt either will make the top 75 aggregate list and maybe we will have to evaluate Mike Green when we do a top 60 later on this decade.

 

[seventieslord]

neither was in my top-80 either.

there is at least somewhat of an argument for Ted. Not for Mike, after three good (offensive) seasons.

 

[Dreakmur]

It's an argument we'll only have if they both end up in the top 75 or so of the aggregate list.

Neither one was in my top 80...

I didn't have either Green on my list either. I could have put Ted Green in the top-80, and I could have easily defended it.

I think I had a bunch of defensive guys in my last couple spots - Bob Baun, Lionel Hitchman, and Leo Boivin... guys like that.


Am I the only guy who had Cyclone Taylor on their lists?? (mid-50s if I remember right)

 

[Hardyvan123]

I didn't have either Green on my list either. I could have put Ted Green in the top-80, and I could have easily defended it.

I think I had a bunch of defensive guys in my last couple spots - Bob Baun, Lionel Hitchman, and Leo Boivin... guys like that.


Am I the only guy who had Cyclone Taylor on their lists?? (mid-50s if I remember right)

Taylor will be a center for me

 

[tarheelhockey]

I actually had Ted Green relatively high on my list, but as you'll recall from earlier I consider him pretty severely underappreciated. (that said, just looking at my list I see about 10 guys I would move dramatically)

I didn't include Mike Green for the same reason I wouldn't put Steve Stamkos on a top-100 forwards list. Regardless whether he's a better player, he hasn't had nearly enough of a career yet to be ranked.

 

[reckoning]

Mike Green and Sandis Ozoloinsh weren't even on my radar for this list. Glen Wesley and Calle Johanssen came closer to making it, but didn't.

 

[Epsilon]

Eh, I can't see Ulf Samuelsson being the top defenseman on a Cup winner like Foote in 1996 or Hatcher in 1999. (No, I'm not forgetting about Zubov; he didn't become better than Hatcher until several years after the Cup win). Edit: Maybe I did forget about Ozolinsch; I guess he and Foote were co-#1s in 1996, each with a different role.

Personally I felt that Ulf was the defensive anchor of the 91 and 92 Penguins' playoff runs, as much if not more so than Foote was for the Avalanche in 96. He also really anchored the back end of those mid/late 1980s Whalers teams. I remember reading a pretty good argument once that he deserved more Norris consideration than he got for the 86-87 season where the Whalers won the Adams division (33 points and team-leading +28 while getting the hardest defensive assignments). Plus he played most of his prime in a really bad era for defensive defensemen (one of the factors that led me to rank him above Hatcher).

Interestingly enough, Hockey-Reference's highest similarity score match for Ulf is Kevin Lowe, who was one of the last cuts for my list and would have made the top 90. Hatcher probably would have as well, while Foote would likely be in my top 100.

 

[MXD]

I didn't have either Green on my list either. I could have put Ted Green in the top-80, and I could have easily defended it.

I think I had a bunch of defensive guys in my last couple spots - Bob Baun, Lionel Hitchman, and Leo Boivin... guys like that.


Am I the only guy who had Cyclone Taylor on their lists?? (mid-50s if I remember right)

The Greens might have been candidate for a possible Top-100, but so were roughly 50 players, and, on top of my head, guys like Red Horner, Ott Heller and JG Talbot were more deserving, not to mention the three guys named above who didn't make my list. Not even sure Mike Green would make it above Matthieu Schneider, who would be around 150th on my list.

Mike Green and Sandis Ozoloinsh weren't even on my radar for this list. Glen Wesley and Calle Johanssen came closer to making it, but didn't.

Another two guys ahead of the Greens.

Personally I felt that Ulf was the defensive anchor of the 91 and 92 Penguins' playoff runs, as much if not more so than Foote was for the Avalanche in 96. He also really anchored the back end of those mid/late 1980s Whalers teams. I remember reading a pretty good argument once that he deserved more Norris consideration than he got for the 86-87 season where the Whalers won the Adams division (33 points and team-leading +28 while getting the hardest defensive assignments). Plus he played most of his prime in a really bad era for defensive defensemen (one of the factors that led me to rank him above Hatcher).

Interestingly enough, Hockey-Reference's highest similarity score match for Ulf is Kevin Lowe, who was one of the last cuts for my list and would have made the top 90. Hatcher probably would have as well, while Foote would likely be in my top 100.

And another two guys ahead of the Greens. Not sure for Derian, though.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Round 2 discussion should begin on next Monday if everything goes smoothly; Tuesday at the latest.

There are a few list makers who haven't heard back from us yet - expect to hear back from us by Friday or Saturday. If there is an issue with your list, you'll have until the end of the first part of round 2 to resubmit.

 

[tjcurrie]

I always thought Hatcher was quite a bit more dominant than Adam Foote. Hatcher was the 2nd best defensive defenseman of the dead puck era after Stevens, IMO. Foote was very good, but he didn't suffocate the opponent's offense like Hatcher did. The Norris record (Hatcher has one, Foote does not) supports this. I bet a lot of people forget that Hatcher was Dallas' captain when they were a perennial contender that went to back to back finals.

Foote gets overrated because of what he did for Team Canada, IMO.

Hatcher was also a 2nd Team All Star in 2003 and came 2nd in voting for the Conn Smythe in 1999

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hatcher was also a 2nd Team All Star in 2003 and came 2nd in voting for the Conn Smythe in 1999

Yes, Hatcher was a 2nd Team All Star in 2003 - he also finished 3rd in Norris voting that year, so people can't say he was a distant 4th or anything.

Where do you hear that Hatcher was 2nd in voting for the CS? I have never heard of CS voting being released, and I'd be surprised if he finished ahead of Modano or Belfour - though he was clearly the most important defenseman on Dallas that year.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Hatcher was also a 2nd Team All Star in 2003 and came 2nd in voting for the Conn Smythe in 1999

Do you have a source for this? Usually Conn Smythe voting results are not made public (outside of the winner of course). Also, from what I remember and by most accounts of others I have heard, Modano and Belfour were the next two in line for the Conn Smythe


EDIT: TDMM beat me to it!