HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - pappyline

overpass · Feb 22, 2012

pappyline

Players from the Top 60 not to appear on this list
Guy Lapointe
Zdeno Chara
Rob Blake
Harvey Pulford
Frantisek Pospisil

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Brad Park (8)
Cyclone Taylor (10)
J.C. Tremblay (23)
Bill Quackenbush (25)
Neil Colville (46)
Doug Mohns (61)
Lars-Erik Sjoberg (68)
Paul Shmyr (69)
Bob Goldham (72)
Wally Stanowski (74)
Jim Neilson (79)

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Slava Fetisov (17)
Scott Stevens (27)
Chris Pronger (66)
Rod Langway (67)
Guy Lapointe (not listed)
Zdeno Chara (not listed)
Rob Blake (not listed)
Harry Howell (not listed)

Players unique to this list
Paul Shmyr (69)

Epsilon · Feb 22, 2012

Wow Chris Pronger at 66? Definitely interested in hearing a bit more about that one.

Also interesting to see Sjoberg there but not Pospisil.

overpass · Feb 22, 2012

Epsilon said:
Wow Chris Pronger at 66? Definitely interested in hearing a bit more about that one.

Also interesting to see Sjoberg there but not Pospisil.

Sjoberg was a top performer from the WHA, and his presence is consistent with high ratings for Tremblay and Shmyr.

reckoning · Feb 22, 2012

Pappyline has always been one of the bigger supporters of the WHA on this board.

This is probably the 3rd or 4th list released so far that has White and Stapleton rated in two consecutive spots. I don't know if it's just a fluke, or if people view them as similar due to playing together for so long.

seventieslord · Feb 22, 2012

he definitely loves his O6 players.

TheDevilMadeMe · Feb 22, 2012

In general, I think this list may have been the least friendly towards recent players, but Konstantinov at 39 sort of flies in the face of that trend.

seventieslord · Feb 22, 2012

But Konstantinov was a throwback.

RabbinsDuck · Feb 22, 2012

Wow, someone had Konstantinov higher than 39?

overpass · Feb 22, 2012

RabbinsDuck said:
Wow, someone had Konstantinov higher than 39?

We already saw tony d's list with Konstantinov at 30.

Dennis Bonvie · Feb 22, 2012

No Guy Lapointe, but J.C. Tremblay at 23?

I like where Konstantinov is rated here.

Epsilon · Feb 23, 2012

RabbinsDuck said:
Wow, someone had Konstantinov higher than 39?

overpass said:
We already saw tony d's list with Konstantinov at 30.

Dennis Bonvie said:
No Guy Lapointe, but J.C. Tremblay at 23?

I like where Konstantinov is rated here.

Maybe I just don't get it. I mean, as a Red Wings fan, I freaking loved Konstantinov, and I have absolutely no doubt that he had the ability to be a top 30 defenseman of all-time. But I just can't reconcile his short (albeit tragically shortened) career length with what he actually did in order to rank him that high (unlike say, Bobby Orr).

plusandminus · Feb 23, 2012

Sorry if misunderstanding or being ignorant, but doesn't pappyline (in round 1) list Cyclone Taylor as nr 10? I find no Taylor being top-60 when looking at the summary of this project. Yet, no one has made any comments about pappyline's high ranking of Taylor.
What have I misunderstood?

Edit: My mistake. t was mentioned in a thread about round 1 voting.

TheDevilMadeMe · Feb 23, 2012

Cyclone Taylor is one of the greatest players of all time, and if you consider him a defenseman, you would rank him highly. As we saw in the Round 1 Results thread recently posted, only two participants considered him a defenseman for the purposes of this project.

tarheelhockey · Feb 23, 2012

plusandminus said:
Sorry if misunderstanding or being ignorant, but doesn't pappyline (in round 1) list Cyclone Taylor as nr 10? I find no Taylor being top-60 when looking at the summary of this project. Yet, no one has made any comments about pappyline's high ranking of Taylor.
What have I misunderstood?

(((Speculating further... If pappyline had Taylor 10th, that should give Taylor 71 pts (81-10), right? One could get the impression that could be enough to make the overall top-80 in the first round. ? (I am not saying it would be enough, and I understand if it's not.) I am probably being ignorant, and probably may get a reply saying I should know about Taylor's case. So sorry for only have read about 90 % of everything posted in this project (and most of that several times), and probably being considered overly ignorant overall.)))

From the round 1 results thread:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1110457&page=2

tarheelhockey said:
Looks like only 2 voters had Cyclone Taylor, but they might have felt they had a strong argument for him.

overpass said:
Yes. Most voters didn't consider Taylor a defenceman, but he was one of the greatest players ever so anyone who ranked him ranked him highly.

He could have been eligible for the final vote in Round 2 with just 2 or 3 more voters listing him.

I think that addresses both parts of your question.

plusandminus · Feb 23, 2012

TheDevilMadeMe said:
Cyclone Taylor is one of the greatest players of all time, and if you consider him a defenseman, you would rank him highly. As we saw in the Round 1 Results thread recently posted, only two participants considered him a defenseman for the purposes of this project.

Sorry, when going through threads I seem to have missed those posts. (It does seem like a logical place to talk about it there).
I'm still a bit confused why he isn't listed in this thread as someone being ranked highly, etc., as if he didn't exist, but maybe I've overlooked something.

"Round 1" seem to have double meanings. First there was "round 1", and then there was "round 2" consisting of "round 1-12".

tarheelhockey said:
From the round 1 results thread:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1110457&page=2

I think that addresses both parts of your question.

Thank you, it does. And it obviously was a gap between his total and the "limit" for being up for voting in round two. (I forgot about 60th place meaning 21 points, thus making the 50-70 type players gain lots of points.)

overpass · Feb 23, 2012

Edited the OP to add Cyclone Taylor to the list of highest listed. Not sure how I missed that first time around...maybe because it was in the top 10.

Dennis Bonvie · Feb 23, 2012

Epsilon said:
Maybe I just don't get it. I mean, as a Red Wings fan, I freaking loved Konstantinov, and I have absolutely no doubt that he had the ability to be a top 30 defenseman of all-time. But I just can't reconcile his short (albeit tragically shortened) career length with what he actually did in order to rank him that high (unlike say, Bobby Orr).

There's your answer.

Some of us didn't take top defensemen to mean defensemen that had the best careers.

pappyline · Feb 29, 2012

Wow, can't believe I left Lapointe and Howell off my list. Pure oversight. Should have been more careful.

As far as some of the modern guys such as Pronger go, I probably did under-rate some of them. My feeling is that you need to let some tome go by after their careers end before you can objectively assess them. I was quite surprised to see Pronger ranked so high & was shocked to see him & Stevens ahead of Gadsby But I seem to be about the only one who thinks this way.

I do have a better appreciation of Pronger now after reading the arguments but still feel he was ranked too high.

And yes, I do have an appreciation for WHA accomplishments and am disappointed that others don't.

Overall, an interesting exercise

Hockey Outsider · Feb 29, 2012

overpass said:
Edited the OP to add Cyclone Taylor to the list of highest listed. Not sure how I missed that first time around...maybe because it was in the top 10.

You didn't do all the highest/lowest player rankings manually, did you? There must be a way to automate it in excel (could save a lot of time for the next project).

overpass · Feb 29, 2012

Hockey Outsider said:
You didn't do all the highest/lowest player rankings manually, did you? There must be a way to automate it in excel (could save a lot of time for the next project).

No, it was automated. My automated process missed a couple of top 10 rankings for some reason.

HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - pappyline

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