HOH Top 60 Centers of All Time

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by TheDevilMadeMe, Nov 4, 2013.

  1. Thenameless

    Thenameless Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    314
    Trophy Points:
    79
    I think one of the arguments is Crosby's competition. Maybe the actual numbers too. But for me this is really petty. They're close enough that you'd be happy with either of their first three years.
     
  2. daver

    daver Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2003
    Messages:
    14,159
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    199
    Home Page:
    Look up the word "context" in the dictionary and then apply some. Then look at their respective playoff resumes.
     
  3. ResilientBeast

    ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    189
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Location:
    Edmonton
    Home Page:
    But how is it Connor's fault? He hasn't had the luxury of having a player close to as good as him when healthy
     
  4. daver

    daver Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2003
    Messages:
    14,159
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    199
    Home Page:
    That he finished 3rd on his team in playoff scoring?

    Are we not considering playoff resumes at all anymore? Crosby was much more proven in the playoffs regardless of one's opinion of their respective teams.
     
  5. MXD

    MXD James St. John Smythe

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    38,191
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Occupation:
    Dead
    ... No, he wasn't. 5 pts in 5 games (in a relatively higher scoring environment) is not more proven than 9 pts in 13 games in a lower scoring environment. That's an obvious case of "equally proven"... or "equally not proven".

    And if you say he was, you're part of problem.
     
  6. K Fleur

    K Fleur Intangibles Per Game

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,870
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    Trophy Points:
    94
    I believe Daver was referring to each player’s respective playoff performance after their first 3 seasons. With that context Crosby is objectively ahead(and more proven) in the playoffs.
     
  7. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2013
    Messages:
    9,110
    Likes Received:
    543
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Location:
    Oblivion Express
    Crosby's rookie season was better because he got a full season in and was 18 throughout the entire year. One of all time great 18 year old seasons. McD got hurt so hard to fully compare.

    Crosby's 2nd season was slightly superior. 19 years old, 120 points. Both players won the Hart, Lindsay and Ross. Both players first year in the postseason. McD went to the 2nd round but was largely average. Same for Sid in a 1st round exit. Hard to put a lot of stock in a 19 and 20 year in their very first playoff run.

    McDavid's 3rd REGULAR season was better because Sid got hurt. Sid had a better PPG but obviously we give credit to McDavid for what he did vs what Sid might have done. McD got his 2nd straight Ross and I'd wager he's very likely to win the Lindsay but don't think he will win or deserves the Hart. However, Crosby had an all time notable postseason run to the Cup finals, where he led the playoffs in assists and points. Personally I'd call this a wash, at least until we find out if Connor adds any more trophies to the mantle this summer.

    There's no doubt Crosby's more impressive if we factor in the 18 year old season and his playoff run in his 3rd year. McDavid obviously has the 2 Art Ross trophies to Sid's 1, but as of now both would have had 1 Hart each and Crosby through 3 years is superior to McDavid, largely because of the 2nd chance and subsequent performance in the 2008 playoffs. IMHO.

    Personally I think McDavid is a guy who ends up winning 5-6 Art Ross's at a minimum if he remains healthy. Something like 4-5 Hart's. It's what Sid would have done if not for losing large chunks of games in 07, 10, and 12 (especially the latter 2 considering how far ahead of the field he was when injured). Those 3 years specifically I think Sid handily wins if he gets 80-82 games in.

    The real question is how many chances does McDavid get in the playoffs and what does he do with them? Will be interesting to see. But like any all time great, that is truly where you will leave a lasting legacy. I hope Connor gets ample chances.

    And I honestly could care less if Connor ends up with more hardware than Sid, even as a diehard Pittsburgher. I enjoy rooting for generational stars (most of them) which includes McDavid. He seems like a hard worker, good kid, and somebody you'd respect a lot off the ice. I've always been drawn to the quiet guy who simply goes out and outworks/outclasses the competition (Sakic and Yzerman were my favorite non Pens players as an older kid and teen). As a Pens fan I'm quite aware of how spoiled I've been over the past few decades. 87 has been worth every penny I've ever spent on going to a game, jersey or piece of memorabilia, and has solidified his legacy especially over the past 2.5 years. I hope Connor at least gets a good # of chances to do the same.
     
    overg and mrhockey193195 like this.
  8. ResilientBeast

    ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    189
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Location:
    Edmonton
    Home Page:
    2007
    Crosby 120 points
    Thornton 114 points

    +6 points or 105% of second place

    2017
    McDavid 100 points
    Crosby/Kane 89 Points

    +11 points or 112% of second place

    McDavid in 2017 > Crosby in 2007 IMO

    2008
    Crosby if full season at that PPG 111 points
    Might not win the Art Ross because of Ovechkin

    2018
    McDavid 108 points
    Giroux 102 points

    +6 or 105% of second place

    Crosby's advantage rests on the rookie season's. The following two seasons McDavid beat his opponents for the Art Ross by larger margins. I don't see how Crosby's second season is even slightly superior, in fact it should swing to McDavid.

    Crosby's third regular season is not more impressive than McDavid's but he did have a great playoff run
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018 at 7:10 PM
  9. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2013
    Messages:
    9,110
    Likes Received:
    543
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Location:
    Oblivion Express

    By those metrics, sure you can put McDavid ahead slightly but that ignores a bunch of factors.

    One, who was Crosby playing with in 2007 at ES? Colby Armstrong. Yup. He played with a 38 year old Mark Recchi at times. It's a nuance that most people either are unaware of or selectively ignore. Sid has almost always dragged around less than stellar linemates. It's one of the most impressive things about his scoring resume. Ovechkin for example has played almost his entire career with a near stud C in Backstrom. Crosby once played with Marian Hossa for a few months. And they were ridiculous together. I understand the concept of Sid carrying lines and putting better players on the 2nd and 3rd lines to make it tougher to defend, but beyond injuries, 87's stats are even more hampered by the quality (lack thereof) of scoring line wingers he's had for the vast majority of his career.

    Two, Crosby was 35 points clear of the next closest scorer on the Pens. Malkin. That's absurd. 52 points clear of 3rd. Drai was 23 points behind McDavid. And Malkin is a far superior player if we're being honest.

    Three, Joe Thornton was/is a better overall hockey player than Patrick Kane. You're acting like McDavid winning the Art Ross by 11 is some massive difference from Sid winning by 6 over Thornton (btw Sid missed 3 games as well). It's not. I'd agree with you if we're talking about a 20 point difference. But we're not. Plus, Sid had a 21 year old Ovechkin that he smoked by 28 points in scoring. Who was McDavid beating? A 29 year old Crosby and 31 year old Ovechkin if we're talking the best pure talent. Other than that, Kucherov, Backstrom, and Marchand were top 5. All within 15 points. Guess how far behind Crosby the 5th place scorer Marty St Louis was in 07? 18 points. And MSL is better than the 3 names I have on the previous line. So yeah, it's a neat trivia that McDavid was the only guy to hit 90/100 points but it's not like he blew the field away when you go numbers 2-5.

    So no chance a 20 year old McDavid's 2nd year was better than Sid's 19 year old, 2nd season.

    But I don't expect either of us to budge given our allegiances. ;)
     
    Felidae likes this.
  10. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    The idea of splitting aces and/or play a depth player on their was common in the O6 era. Applying the same reasoning boosts Beliveau, Henri Richard, Bobby Hull,Stan Mikita, Gordie Howe, Ted Kennedy and a few others.
     
    ImporterExporter likes this.
  11. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2013
    Messages:
    9,110
    Likes Received:
    543
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Location:
    Oblivion Express
    I agree completely. And those names are not lost on me. Thanks for pointing it out though sir.
     
  12. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2013
    Messages:
    9,110
    Likes Received:
    543
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Location:
    Oblivion Express
    It's been a while since I was thoroughly scouting the Wings of the early 50's but didn't Howe, Able and Lindsay play quite a bit together? At least until Abel left Detroit/retired.....
     
  13. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Yes thru the 1951-52 season. Initially formed in 1946-47 as the second line - Abel and two youngsters behind the Billy Taylor/Roy Conacher duo.

    1946-47 Detroit Red Wings Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com
     
  14. ResilientBeast

    ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    9,769
    Likes Received:
    189
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Location:
    Edmonton
    Home Page:
    As per frozen pool in 2007/08 Crosby spent about a third of his shifts at even strength with Malkin, who is far better than Draisaitl so lets not say he always played with scrubs (sadly their data doesn't go quite far enough back and stops at 07/08)

    I'd hope Sidney Crosby would be that far ahead of a rookie on his own team :laugh: compared to McDavid with a 4th year pro who spent 3/4 of the season on his line

    I can buy even, but Crosby is not ahead
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018 at 8:42 PM
  15. bambamcam4ever

    bambamcam4ever 107 and counting

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2012
    Messages:
    7,647
    Likes Received:
    402
    Trophy Points:
    94
    You can't just gloss over the games missed for the players in question or their competition.

    McDavid's ppg lead the past two seasons were .03 and .007. Hardly evidence he is clearly above the rest of the league in regular season production, even without accounting for the lesser competition McDavid is facing.
     
  16. daver

    daver Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2003
    Messages:
    14,159
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    199
    Home Page:
    How does a "far better" Malkin finish 18th in scoring vs. 8th for Draisatl? And isn't it saying something about Crosby finishing "far ahead" of "far better" Malkin compared to McDavid finishing closer to Draisaitl?

    Not saying this is particularly relevant to a not particularity relevant discussion but had to be asked.
     
  17. daver

    daver Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2003
    Messages:
    14,159
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    199
    Home Page:
    I think the PPG numbers speak for themselves without getting into a comparison of competition. I don't see how any player (s) in any of their first three seasons had a season (s) that should be considered a statistical anomaly.
     
  18. bobholly39

    bobholly39 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    6,238
    Likes Received:
    774
    Trophy Points:
    109
    Outside of the elite consistency (no down years yet) for Crosby that is his biggest attribute - one other reason that is hugely significant and a big reason why he aspires so high on this list is that he hit the ground running at 18 years old.

    Lemieux didn't reach his top potential till 4 years in or so
    Gretzky started at 19
    Beliveau was 22 i think?

    McDavid seems primed to copy Crosby in that regard.

    I think that makes a huge difference for Crosby and can for McDavid too.
     
  19. 66871

    66871 Registered User

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    2,066
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Location:
    Maine
    Doesn't this statement go against the 'talent compression' argument I see so often here about the O6 era. I mean, OK, there were definitely some aces. But the conventional wisdom around here seems to be that nearly everyone else in the league was a king, queen or jack due to talent compression.
     
  20. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    No, all it illustrates is that aces were not linemates of other aces. Aces played with face cards.
     
  21. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Beliveau in his combined amateur try-out at ages 19 and 21 scored 7 points in 5 NHL games including 5 goals.

    Jean Beliveau Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

    He dominated the QJHL and QSHL where he was paid more than the NHL offered.
     
  22. 66871

    66871 Registered User

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    2,066
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Location:
    Maine
    I guess I'm lost, then, on why that is comparable to Crosby or McDavid or anyone in the cap era playing with 4s and 5s.
     
  23. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Point was that splitting aces goes back to the start of the O6 era.

    Howe as an example played with minor league retreads like Gary Aldcorn, Parker MacDonald, not exactly face cards.
     
  24. 66871

    66871 Registered User

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    2,066
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Location:
    Maine
    That was exactly my point earlier, the notion of talent compression in the O6 era has its limits.
     
  25. bobholly39

    bobholly39 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    6,238
    Likes Received:
    774
    Trophy Points:
    109
    Yeah but that doesn't count a lot when assessing his resume, does it? Lesser league - it doesn't add much to his resume, not as much as having success in the NHL those years would have.

    Which is why it's impressive that despite starting at age 22 he's looked at the #3 center all time.
    Flip side of looking at it - because of those 4 "missed" years - thats 4 extra years of prime McDavid/Crosby have on him. We just spent the past cpl pages talking about each players first 3 years. In comparison - Beliveau is still at 0 at the same stage - and both McDavid/Crosby have a 4th year to add to their resume before Beliveau even starts his career, if we are doing apples to apples comparison by age.

    If Crosby/McDavid both (or either/or) end up passing Beliveau - this will be a huge reason why.
     

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"