Staniowski
Registered User
you are thinking about toews?
Of the guys in their 30s currently playing, I guess everybody would agree on Crosby, and some would say Malkin.
Of the younger guys, McDavid and Matthews have the potential.
you are thinking about toews?
I pretty much agree with most of your post.
The one thing i'll say is concerning your last paragraph - I don't think Malkin's season in 2015 "adds more" than Sakic in 1994. I'd argue neither season really adds anything. How much can a player's 8th, 9th 10th best season really add to their resume after all (in Sakic's case might be lower than 10th).
I do think Sakic's 94 season should "subtract" from his resume though. The same way that Ovechkin's 2011 and 2012 seasons hurt him, and the same way that Jagr's year in washington hurts him.
I don't think Malkin has any such year that hurts him too. In every (almost) full season, he's always performed well.
I don't think when judging a career it's fair to subtract points to a players legacy for injuries within a season. So Malkin doesn't lose any points for missing games in 2015, as injury is outside of a player's control. I only look at injuries when looking at overall career longevity.
So Lindros? Only 700 games - too small sample size to compete with Sakics and Yzermans. Forsberg? 700 games, too small sample size to compete with Sakics and Yzermans.
If Malkin ends up with enoug longevity career wise (say 1000+ games) - I won't really mind that he missed 15-20 games in many seasons, so long as everything else that matters is there.
If I get the crux of your argument, as long as Malkin plays a decent amount of career games and doesn't have any "full" seasons in his prime that are noticeably below his 'normal' expected level of play, that might be enough to move him past Sakic and Yzerman (assuming Malkin's playoff resume doesn't change that much).
I think you are placing too much value on their 9th or 10th best seasons especially when Sakic has a clear advantage in raw point scoring finishes in their best 1 thru 8 best seasons.
I have a real issue with the presuming Malkin's down seasons would have regressed to the norm. A presumption like that is simply not a viable reason to potentially move Malkin ahead of Sakic, or move him closer than their raw point scoring finishes would indicate.
I'm not really presuming anything about Malkin's down seasons. I'm just not holding them against him, because of small sample size. As you say, how much does hi 9th or 10th best season really matter?
What does matter is that Malkin doesn't have a "bad" season. Sakic does - at least 1, and Yzerman a few. I'm holding that aspect of their prime against them (Yzerman/Sakic) - having some "bad" seasons. Whereas I admire the fact that Malkin hasn't had one yet.
I'm big on consistency, so when looking at overall prime i don't see any valleys in Malkin's resume, but i do see some in Yzerman and Sakic's.
Longevity matters. Both Sakic and Yzerman played approx 1500 games. Malkin has approx 800. That's a big gap, obviously.
But if it was 1500 vs say 1100-1200 games? Longevity matters a lot less to me, especially if those extra 300-500 games are just more of those "10th, 11th, 12th best seasons".
I'm not really presuming anything about Malkin's down seasons. I'm just not holding them against him, because of small sample size. As you say, how much does hi 9th or 10th best season really matter?
What does matter is that Malkin doesn't have a "bad" season. Sakic does - at least 1, and Yzerman a few. I'm holding that aspect of their prime against them (Yzerman/Sakic) - having some "bad" seasons. Whereas I admire the fact that Malkin hasn't had one yet.
I'm big on consistency, so when looking at overall prime i don't see any valleys in Malkin's resume, but i do see some in Yzerman and Sakic's.
Longevity matters. Both Sakic and Yzerman played approx 1500 games. Malkin has approx 800. That's a big gap, obviously.
But if it was 1500 vs say 1100-1200 games? Longevity matters a lot less to me, especially if those extra 300-500 games are just more of those "10th, 11th, 12th best seasons".
In one paragraph you say that a 9th or 10th best season for Malkin doesn't really matter (seemingly because you can play the "small sample size" card) but then in the next paragraph Sakic and Yzerman's 11th? or 12th? or 13th? best seasons do matter and you are holding it against them.
So which is it?
This seems like a compete double standard in addition to the double standard of comparing Malkin's high PPG finishes vs. S and Y's full seasons but not comparing Malkin's low PPG finishes vs. S and Y's full seasons.
Seems like the moral of the story is, if you're not performing quite at your expected level, just get injured to queer the sample size. And if you are performing at your expected level, getting injured before you have a slump or slow down isn't a bad strategy either.
Based on your criteria, Sakic suffering a season-ending injury in the middle of January, 1994 would raise his stock. His ppg would be a fair bit higher than it ended up, afterall. Do you not see the logical pitfall this line of thinking presents?
Not sure why i'm being grilled with all these questions. It's getting rather annoying. Instead of attacking how I form my opinion - why don't you yourself lay out in detail every idea and element that goes into your own ranking of players, to see how well it holds up. I should do what 90% of posters do and reply with a sarcastic 1 liner, or simply ignore this.
But since you asked, I suppose I'll explain yet again...
You said in an earlier post that I am "presuming Malkin's down seasons would have regressed to the norm". I am doing no such thing. I am simply ignoring those seasons due to small sample size. I give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe over a long stretch he would have done better, and don't spend too much time looking at those when I look at his overall resume.
When I look at a player's career there are things i consider a "positive" and things I consider a "negative".
Best seasons? Very large "positives". Pick any of Yzerman, Sakic or Malkin's best seasons, they count for a lot.
6th, 7th.....10th, 11th best season? Diminishing returns. They all counts as positives so long as they are "good" seasons relative to expectations/field/competition and whatever other reasonable criteria you can think of.
Bad season? ie Sakic in 1994. It's a negative. He was disappointing, and so it's a negative.
Malkin in 2011, small sample size? I simply ignore it altogether. Too small sample size, i don't think it's fair to deduct points. So it's not a positive, it's not a negative, it's just 0 - i ignore it.
You and other posters are also obsessing over this. In the grand scheme of the Malkin vs Yzerman or Malkin vs Sakic debate - the worth of Malkin's 2011 or Sakic's 94 season is maybe 1%, max, of the overall picture. Not sure why so many posts are being wasted discussing this. I'd love to move onto a discussion about comparing their overall resumes instead.
Malkin has been a more consistent high level offensive contributor in his career than either Sakic or Yzerman were. He's been better on a per game basis, and I find that commendable. With enough longevity (which he lacks) and awards (which he already has more of) than them - he should pass them in my opinion. I'd argue that he's already close to Yzerman overall despite the lack of longevity, since other areas of his resume are stronger, though i'm not sure if he's already passed him or not.
Hamilton Spectator (Ontario, Canada)
January 10, 1994 Monday Final Edition
Nords' star may not be immune from trade
His 47 points make him the Quebec Nordiques' second-leading scorer but even Mats Sundin doesn't consider himself untouchable in a possible trade.
"Anything can happen," Sundin said after practice yesterday. "Almost everybody is worried by the trade rumors because 99 per cent of the guys, me included, are not playing up to their potential."
The Nordiques have a record of 17-20-5 and would miss the playoffs if they began today. Several players believe general manager Pierre Page will make a trade before the team's next game against the Flames in Calgary tomorrow.
Page is not travelling with the team, and captain Joe Sakic said players know "he's involved in trade talks."
Sakic, Quebec's scoring leader with 53 points, hopes the uncertainty surrounding the team disappears soon so the team can concentrate on playing hockey.
Forward Claude Lapointe said the trade rumors have left players edgy.
"Everybody's a bit nervous," Lapointe acknowledged. "Mike Ricci and Valeri Kamensky didn't play last Friday (a 6-4 defeat in Edmonton against the Oilers).
"We're wondering who's going to be left out for the next match. The guys want to know where they stand with the team and I'm convinced that Pierre was serious when he said that four players would be on the move after the holidays."
[...]
Sundin said rumors the franchise might move have nothing to do with his own problems or the team's.
"I remember last season when we had a dry spell in February and these negative stories appeared," Sundin recalled. "It's always the same old story when things are going badly. People look for reasons."
Nordiques' captain Joe Sakic said the team has enough on-ice problems without having to worry about developments upstairs.
"I haven't seen Guy for ages but I guess it's normal that negative comments like these are made when the team is going through a rough spell," said Sakic, who believes the rumors will disappear once the team puts together a winning streak.
Aubut, who is also part owner of the Nordiques, has often said the team will have difficulty surviving in Quebec City if a new 19,000-seat Colisee is not built.
The Philadelphia Inquirer
February 20, 1994 Sunday FINAL EDITION
NORDS LOOK LIKE A TROUBLED TEAM THEY LOST 4 IN A ROW. WINGER OWEN NOLAN TOOK ON / ASSISTANT COACH DON JACKSON. NOT MUCH IS GOING RIGHT.
The Nordiques are experiencing some rough times in the frozen north. Scoring star Mats Sundin had just three goals in 26 games through Thursday. And the team, which was expected to contend for the Stanley Cup this season, lost four straight this past week before Thursday's victory over San Jose.
Then there was the Battle in the Gym. According to sources in Quebec, injured winger Owen Nolan got into a fistfight with assistant coach Don Jackson earlier this month after the two disagreed over whether Nolan was finished with a rehabilitation workout.
Although Nolan is regarded as a tough player and a pretty good fighter on the ice, fighting experts close to the Nordiques say that Jackson would have creamed Nolan if the brief tussle had gone the distance.
Nolan has been out for most of the season with a shoulder injury.
In other news from Eric Lindros' favorite team, general manager and coach Pierre Page said that he would not trade Mike Ricci, Sundin or Joe Sakic as long as he was calling the shots in the big Q.
When told of Page's comments, Ricci shrugged. That's what they said in Phildadelphia, Ricci said. Ricci was traded to the Nordiques against his wishes in the Lindros deal shortly after being told by the Flyers that he was in their long-range plans.
Actually, Ricci would make good trade bait right now. He'd be the perfect second- or third-line center for the Flyers, among other teams. And, after a rough spell, he's playing well these days.
Ricci credits some of his resurgence to a visit by his mother during the all-star break. While she was there, Ricci's mother cooked him some nice meals and generally perked up his spirits.
Since the break, Ricci has returned to his gritty, trash-talking self. He also scored five goals Thursday in the Nords' 8-2 victory over San Jose.
BYLINE: Gary Miles, INQUIRER STAFF WRITER
St. Louis Post-Dispatch (Missouri)
February 3, 1994, THURSDAY, FIVE STAR Edition
TRUE GRIT; HARD-NOSED GUYS MAKE QUICK IMPACT FOR QUEBEC
BYLINE: Tom Wheatley Of the Post-Dispatch Staff
"Bassen and Sutter were our best players," coach/general manager Pierre Page told the Canadian Press after the Hartford game. "And they shouldn't be. (Joe) Sakic and (Mats) Sundin should play better."
Those are just two of Quebec's seven centers. And that doesn't count Swedish whiz kid Peter Forsberg, who is expected to sign after the Olympics.
The hot scuttlebutt is that the play of Bassen and Sutter will free Quebec to make a blockbuster three-way deal.
Toronto would send slick defenseman Dave Ellett to Quebec, which would send center Mike Ricci to Philadelphia, which would send forward Rod Brind'Amour to Toronto.
In Quebec, Ellett would do what holdout Duchesne refused to do: Run the point on what is now the third-worst power play in the National Hockey League.
Ricci, a sparkplug who lost his spark, is expendable because of the truly gritty play of centermen Bassen and Sutter.
"I hope it's contagious, the way they work," Page told reporters after the Hartford game. "They will show the way to the young players. That's what we need."
[...]
Bassen, wearing his familiar No. 28, began by centering rookie Iain Fraser and displaced Sundin.
Bassen is between Russian winger Valeri Kamensky and Sutter, making a rare appearance on right wing.
Sutter, in his usual No. 22, takes all important faceoffs, as he did here. That fills a huge gap for Quebec.
On the road, Sutter rooms with Sundin, the gifted-but-soft Swede whose game has sagged badly. Page hopes that Sutter may toughen up Sundin by association.
"It's like we've known each other for a lot of years," Sundin told the Canadian Press. "It's great. We need players like that."
Sundin and Joe Sakic are normally freewheeling centermen.
They have been gridlocked by the trapping defenses now the rage around the NHL.
St. Louis Post-Dispatch (Missouri)
January 24, 1994, MONDAY, FIVE STAR Edition
BLUES ACQUIRE DUCHESNE FOR BUTCHER, SUTTER, BASSEN
BYLINE: Tom Wheatley Of the Post-Dispatch Staff
Duchesne, who made $ 900,000 (Canadian) last season, refused to report to camp in a salary dispute. Last month, an arbitrator awarded him $ 1.125 million for this season and an option for next season. But the situation between Duchesne and team owner Marcel Aubut apparently deteriorated beyond reconciliation.
Curiously, Duchesne's arrival may make Brown expendable if Phil Housley returns in March, as expected, from back surgery.
Duchesne's arrival "may lead to more player movement," Caron said. "Did God put all this together in seven days? I know temporarily it will look confusing, particularly at center. But we can remedy that quickly by suggesting some other transactions."
Caron said he did not want to touch the team's top six players - goalie Curtis Joseph, Brown and forwards Brett Hull, Brendan Shanahan and Craig Janney.
Caron denied rumors that he was trying to move Janney and Shanahan. In fact, he did not try to land Quebec center Joe Sakic because the Nordiques always asked for Shanahan.
Caron said he hoped to add three Blues prospects after the Olympics - forwards Craig Johnson and David Roberts of Team USA and defenseman Jason Marshall of Team Canada.
Butcher and Sutter were Blues assistant captains. Bassen has anchored the checking line for 3 1/2 seasons, hounding the opposition's top centers.
Bassen and Sutter also took most of the Blues' defensive faceoffs, a job that may fall to wingers Shanahan and Hull.
The trade blindsided the Blues, who practiced Sunday at the Forum Ice Arena in Fenton.
"I'm flabbergasted," Sutter said. "Shocked."
So were his ex-teammates.
Coach Bob Berry spoke to the three departing players, then tersely deferred all questions to Caron.
The few players who would comment did so only if their names were not used.
"Tell me (Mike) Modano and (Jeremy) Roenick aren't laughing now," one player said, referring to two of the top rival centers in the Central Division. "The guys we're losing are the ones who make it tough on them."
Another player said, "Why would you give away your spine?"
"They're entitled to that opinion," said Caron, who arrived after practice to talk to the players. "If this is the case, my job is to find another spine. And I'll be working on it, because spines are not permanent."
The Ottawa Citizen
March 30, 1994, Wednesday, FINAL EDITION
SCOUTING REPORT ON THE NORDIQUES
BYLINE: JOHN MACKINNON; CITIZEN
WHO'S HOT:
The Nordiques are 5-4-1 over their past 10 games, a stretch that began on March 8 with a 5-2 victory over the Senators.
Quebec has lost their past two games, 5-2 to the New Jersey Devils and 6-3 to the Toronto Maple Leafs. Valeri Kamensky has been much criticized in Quebec City for indifferent play, but he has 25 goals and 57 points and leads the club in plus-minus, with a plus 8.
WHO'S NOT:
Most of the usual suspects -- Joe Sakic, Mats Sundin, Mike Ricci and Kamensky -- are among the team leaders in scoring. Most also have put up subpar numbers. Sakic (22-59-81) and Sundin (28-45-73) both are capable of 100-plus points totals. The most conspicuously absent Nordiques scorer could well be Martin Rucinsky, who has just nine goals and 23 assists for 32 points in 56 games.
The Globe and Mail (Canada)
April 26, 1994 Tuesday
Sakic loses tooth for Canada Nordiques centre injured in comeback win over Italy
BYLINE: ALAN ADAMS; CP
The Canadian general manager's worst fears were realized minutes later
when Joe Sakic left the ice with a blood-soaked towel over his mouth.
"To me, Sakic was really outstanding," said Sather, after Canada beat
Italy 4-1 yesterday in its first game at the 12-country championship. "He
had a game going where he could have scored a lot of goals.
"He has impressed me more than anyone. He has a real attitude. He wants
to be here and he wants to win."
Sakic was hovering near the Italian net in the last minute of the first
period when a puck bounced off a stick and nailed him, cutting him and
knocking back two front teeth. A Swiss dentist in the crowd took him to a
clinic in nearby Trento for oral surgery. One tooth was removed.
"It's up to him," Canadian coach George Kingston said of Sakic's status
for today's game against Austria. "He's a gamer."
Sakic did, however, give a thumbs-up signal as he leaned against a wall
outside Canada's dressing room in the second intermission.
"People focus on his points but nobody realizes how gritty he is," said
Mike Ricci, Sakic's teammate on the Quebec Nordiques. "He's as tough as
nails and he will be back."
Yes I do value very highly players who performer at their expected level, I agree.
It's not about an injury to Sakic would raise his stock. It's about not having a stretch of 40 games - or an overall 1994 season - of play significantly below his expected level. I do find that underwhelming, and it lowers his stock imo. By a "bit". I'm not suggesting he be dropped outside of the top 60 centers over 1994, so I think you too are giving too much significance to this. But I still won't back off of it. 1994 was a bad year for Sakic, and it impacts his overall resume.
Now if you were to show me evidence that Sakic was somehow injured in 1994 and played at less than 100% for a long stretch of the season, which explained his lower offensive contributions - sure, i'd be willing to not count that as a bad season since there's a reason for it.
This is where the contradiction lies. If Sakic got injured in January that season, he never has that stretch of 40 games played at a standard somewhat below what he'd previously established. And if he subsequently gets the Malkin treatment, the season is then either disregarded entirely, or projected out and counted in full based on his strong points per game in the first half of the season, whichever is more beneficial to his case.
I'm all for "punishing" crappy seasons. It's the logic that results in a 84 GP/92 point season being deemed WORSE than a 43 GP/37 point season that has me, and others, scratching our heads. You have tried to use the consistency argument as a point in Malkin's favour , despite him not managing to stay healthy for one single season out of the five prior to this one. Steve Yzerman played practically the full schedule 14 of his first 17 seasons in the league, but because a couple of those years were perhaps merely befitting of a regular first line center as opposed to Hall of Fame level, he's docked points for consistency. And all this is ignoring the fact that Malkin in particular has been notorious for putting together stretches of a month or two or a playoff series or two where he looks like Mario Lemieux, but then having similar stretches where a search party is being assembled to go find him. Malkin is one of the last guys I would ever think to call "consistent", unless it was immediately followed by "-ly injured".
I can appreciate your point that he's never had a full season where he wasn't a great player, but when you have only turned in 4 full seasons out of 11 (closing in on 5/12), this is not all it's cracked up to be. Sakic played 12 full seasons (I'll give him the 73 game 1999 season), and you'd have to say he was great in at least 10 of them. Yzerman had 14 full seasons (plus a 15th at age 38 where he was clearly not expected to be a franchise-level player), and I think it would be pretty harsh to call less than 11 of them great years.
So one guy is 4/4, one guy is 10/12, the other is 11/14. And the two guys that aren't batting 1.000 were still valuable contributors in the "bad" years. To claim the 4/4 guy has already closed in on the other two, and perhaps might have already passed the 11/14 guy is really stretching things. I mean, if Malkin goes out next year and has a "bad" 65 point/82 game season and Connor McDavid wins another scoring title or close to it, is the 3/3 full seasons McDavid suddenly on the cusp of passing the now 5/6 and no longer perfect in full seasons Malkin?
This is where the contradiction lies. If Sakic got injured in January that season, he never has that stretch of 40 games played at a standard somewhat below what he'd previously established. And if he subsequently gets the Malkin treatment, the season is then either disregarded entirely, or projected out and counted in full based on his strong points per game in the first half of the season, whichever is more beneficial to his case.
I'm all for "punishing" crappy seasons. It's the logic that results in a 84 GP/92 point season being deemed WORSE than a 43 GP/37 point season that has me, and others, scratching our heads. You have tried to use the consistency argument as a point in Malkin's favour , despite him not managing to stay healthy for one single season out of the five prior to this one. Steve Yzerman played practically the full schedule 14 of his first 17 seasons in the league, but because a couple of those years were perhaps merely befitting of a regular first line center as opposed to Hall of Fame level, he's docked points for consistency. And all this is ignoring the fact that Malkin in particular has been notorious for putting together stretches of a month or two or a playoff series or two where he looks like Mario Lemieux, but then having similar stretches where a search party is being assembled to go find him. Malkin is one of the last guys I would ever think to call "consistent", unless it was immediately followed by "-ly injured"
I can appreciate your point that he's never had a full season where he wasn't a great player, but when you have only turned in 4 full seasons out of 11 (closing in on 5/12), this is not all it's cracked up to be. Sakic played 12 full seasons (I'll give him the 73 game 1999 season), and you'd have to say he was great in at least 10 of them. Yzerman had 14 full seasons (plus a 15th at age 38 where he was clearly not expected to be a franchise-level player), and I think it would be pretty harsh to call less than 11 of them great years.
So one guy is 4/4, one guy is 10/12, the other is 11/14. And the two guys that aren't batting 1.000 were still valuable contributors in the "bad" years. To claim the 4/4 guy has already closed in on the other two, and perhaps might have already passed the 11/14 guy is really stretching things. I mean, if Malkin goes out next year and has a "bad" 65 point/82 game season and Connor McDavid wins another scoring title or close to it, is the 3/3 full seasons McDavid suddenly on the cusp of passing the now 5/6 and no longer perfect in full seasons Malkin?
I agree with this. You simply cannot ignore the lack of full seasons by Malkin. It is inherently written into his legacy at this point. Until an assessment of Malkin's career doesn't need to be qualified with "when healthy" or "at his best", then he should be behind a player with a similar peak and significantly better Art Ross finishes.
I think he differs from Lindros and Forsberg whose style of play likely lead to their career-stifling injuries but that doesn't mean you should ignore raw point finishes altogether; ones that are almost as strong as Malkin's PPG finishes in Sakic's case.
There's peak. Length of peak. Height of peak. Prime. Length of prime. Height of prime. Consistency of prime. Playoffs. Playoffs peak. Playoffs prime. Playoffs consistency. etc. Malkin scores well in many of those. There are other things that count too.
Art Ross finishes are just one of the many components. Doing nothing but looking at those is flawed, and giving too much importance to those is also flawed.
Malkin can absolutely end up above both Sakic and Yzerman playing nothing but 65-70 games a season for the rest of his career (and thus not adding as many high art ross finishes) if his level of play warrants it.
Of the bolded components, what do you feel Malkin scores better than Sakic at?
Sure if all you're going to count is absolutely full seasons, the ratio for Sakic/Yzerman goes significantly up. I try to be a bit more generous. If you play around 75% or more of the season I try to count those. Malkin has more than 4 of those.
So in 1994 Sakic had 53 points in his first 42 games (106 pace) and 39 in his last 42 games (78 point pace).
As a whole - I find his season of 92 points underwhelming. I agree that 106 point would be better, and 78 would be quite worst. If he had only played the first 42 games, scoring 53 points, that would have put him 15th in the league in PPG (in 42 games, whereas the 14 players above him all have more games played). Instead - after 84 games he sits in 33rd place (31st if we discount players with below 30 games). To be honest, even 15th in PPG isn't all that good for Sakic. But yes - if that had happened and he only had played the first 42 games, I wouldn't hold that season against him, I would "give him the benefit of the doubt" or "disregard it entirely" to use your words.
It's only a 42 game sample size - and i'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt maybe over 84 games it evens out. So it would stand out less and bother me less. Which is what i'm saying about Malkin in 2011.
When I evaluate a player - i try to look for his best years, and tabulate whatever worth those seasons should have. To try to use a clumsy math analogy - let's say player A has 12 overall seasons that can be broken down as:
5 good seasons
5 ok sasons
2 bad seasons
The 5 "good" seasons count for positives in my evaluation. If - like Crosby in 2011 or 2013 - the good seasons are partial seasons, they count for less than they would as full seasons (ie 2011 Crosby with 41 games counts for less than it would have if it was 82 games) but they still do count.
The "ok" seasons don't count for much. Assuming nothing super significant is going on there (no awards, or particularly high scoring totals/end season finishes, etc). For example - had Sakic played 1994 to the full 106 point pace he had at the midway point - this would probably be here. Doesn't subtract anything, but law of diminishing return says his 9th or 10th best season can only add so much positives, if any.
The bad seasons (ie 1994 for Sakic, 92 points) count as a negative. So yes - I deduct points for Sakic in 1994 because I find the season underwhelming for him.
If Sakic had only played 42 games in 1984 (whether scoring 39 or 53 points) - I wouldn't count it as a negative. Small sample size, give him the benefit of the doubt.
Which is what i'm doing for Malkin, when looking at individual seasons. Right now Malkin only has "good" or "ok" seasons, not "bad" ones.
And the 5 "good", 5 "ok" and 2 "bad" seasons is of course just an example. A different player might have 10 good and 1 ok season, or any combination of.
Yes I punish crappy seasons.
Yes consistency is a point in Malkin's favor. Moreso than Sakic/Yzerman - who had bad seasons, that I feel Malkin has not yet had.
Health obviously is a big negative for Malkin. I've never denied that, nor do I question it. But I look at longevity over a full career, as opposed to individual seasons. Ie i don't care if Malkin makes a career of playing 60-65 games a year, so long as he has enough longevity in the end to compare to someone like Sakic and Yzerman.
Lindros made a career of playing 55-60 games a season too. I don't hold that against him. What I hold against him is that he only played 700 career games. If he had played ~60 games a year but still managed over 1000-1200 games? I wouldn't care, if I deemed those ~1200 games enough career longevity to compare against guys like Sakic or Yzerman. That's where Malkin seems to be heading, but of course we'll only know once he's retired.
And yes Malkin is streaky - he's the type of player who can look like Lemieux for 10 games and look crappy for the next 10, I suppose. So what? If that averages out to "better" than Sakic/Yzerman level over 20 games, isn't that still better? He may not be very consistent game to game, but year to year he has been more consistent than either Sakic or Yzerman.
Fair enough I guess, we're obviously not going to see eye to eye on this. Your opinion that it is preferable to be injured and out of the lineup than performing at anything less than a first ballot HOFer level is rather unique, but I guess we all have our own criteria.
So would it be fair to say that if Malkin's play drops off and he starts adding some "bad" seasons in his 30's, your opinion/ranking of him will diminish
The problem is, the NHL does not award playoff positions or Stanley Cups based on partial sample sizes. Pittsburgh did not eventually get credited with an extra Stanley Cup as a result of a bunch of strong partial seasons. Great as they may be when they're on the ice, chronically injured players eventually hurt their teams due to their unreliability.
Not necessarily. Any coach in the world will take a guy who shows up and scores 1 point in 20 straight games over the guy who has seven three-point games and 13 zero-point games in the same stretch. Game to game consistency, including whether or not a player is healthy and available to play, is a highly valued trait.
So why does 75% of a season count unconditionally but not 52% or 65% (2013) for Malkin, even with some context applied?
I'm all for "punishing" crappy seasons. It's the logic that results in a 84 GP/92 point season being deemed WORSE than a 43 GP/37 point season that has me, and others, scratching our heads. You have tried to use the consistency argument as a point in Malkin's favour , despite him not managing to stay healthy for one single season out of the five prior to this one. Steve Yzerman played practically the full schedule 14 of his first 17 seasons in the league, but because a couple of those years were perhaps merely befitting of a regular first line center as opposed to Hall of Fame level, he's docked points for consistency. And all this is ignoring the fact that Malkin in particular has been notorious for putting together stretches of a month or two or a playoff series or two where he looks like Mario Lemieux, but then having similar stretches where a search party is being assembled to go find him. Malkin is one of the last guys I would ever think to call "consistent", unless it was immediately followed by "-ly injured".
Of all the recent players mentioned in the past couple of pages, Malkin seems to be in the ideal situation to shine strictly offensively.
I think this is a very good assessment, and one that should be definitely considered in comparing him to his peers. Comparing him with Crosby seems very straight forward given they play on the same team and era so deployment and performance vs. peers can be assessed easier. Where it gets tricky is putting players who were offensively inferior ahead of him. I am not sure that Malkin should be penalized for producing in the situation he has been put in as (1) we cannot say for sure that others would have improved their numbers if also put into the same situation, or (2) that Malkin's numbers would have been worse if his situation had been different.
Perhaps this can be added to the list of things that could potentially keep Malkin behind Sakic and Yzerman unless his offensive resume is clearly superior. I would also add in strength of team/linemates to that discussion too which is perhaps a plus for Malkin.
Team | GP | GF/GP | Rel GF/GP | GA/GP | Rel GA/GP | GD/GP | Rel GD/GP |
COL* | 786 | 3.130 | 2 (+5.9%) | 2.472 | 5 (-1.3%) | +0.658 | 2 (+78.3%) |
PIT** | 943 | 3.153 | 1 (+7.6%) | 2.715 | 13 (+4.2%) | +0.438 | 1 (+70.7%) |
Team | <1 GD Games | <2 GD Games |
COL | 498 (2 / 63.4%) | 628 (3 / 79.9%) |
PIT | 628 (1 / 66.2%) | 744 (1 / 78.9%) |
Player | GP | Score% |
Crosby | 777 | 71.4% |
Malkin | 778 | 71.2% |
Sakic | 694 | 69.6% |
Forsberg | 580 | 68.8% |
Player | GP | minus-player% |
Forsberg | 580 | 24.0% |
Sakic | 694 | 27.5% |
Crosby | 777 | 28.8% |
Malkin | 778 | 30.8% |
Who would be clearly inferior to him? I consider all these players to have peaked offensively in a pretty similar ballpark.
If their offensive resume end up being "superior" (prime wise, assuming peak won't change), is it by ability or by design? We don't know the specifics, is it about abilities or personal sacrifices for the greater good of the team? I think it's a legitimate question to ask.