HOH Top 60 Centers List & Voting Record - Sturminator

TheDevilMadeMe · Mar 24, 2014

Round 1 List

Players from our final top 60 not ranked in this top 60
Duke Keats at 62
Henrik Zetterberg at 64
Neil Colville at 67
Jacques Lemaire at 70

Players unique to this list
Phil Goyette (on 1 other list)
Doug Weight (on 1 other list)
Vladimir Shadrin (on 1 other list)

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Frank Nighbor at 6 (tied with 1 other)
Frank Boucher at 13 (tied with 1 other)

Players ranked 2nd highest on this list
Elmer Lach at 22
Norm Ullman at 23
Joe Thornton at 30
Marty Barry at 34 (tied with 1 other)
Jeremy Roenick at 54
Phil Watson at 65

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Sidney Crosby at 52 - next lowest at 47

Players ranked 2nd lowest on this list
Evgeni Malkin at 58

Round 2 voting

Round|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|none
1|Gretzky|Lemieux|Beliveau|Morenz|Mikita|Clarke|Trottier|Esposito|Messier
2|Mikita|Nighbor|Messier|Clarke|Sakic|Esposito|Taylor|Trottier|Lalonde, Yzerman
3|Trottier|Taylor|Sakic|Esposito|Yzerman|Lalonde|Dionne|Schmidt|Apps
4|Boucher|Yzerman|Lalonde|Richard|Apps|Schmidt|Forsberg|Dionne|Malone
5|Schmidt|Richard|Crosby|Dionne|Forsberg|Kennedy|Malone|Bentley|Fedorov
6|Crosby|Kennedy|Ullman|Lach|Cowley|Bentley|Stewart|Malone|Abel, Fedorov, Keon, Stastny
7|Ullman|Bentley|Cowley|Lach|Stewart|Fedorov|Francis|Keon|Abel, Delvecchio, Francis
8|Stewart|Abel|Fedorov|Keon|Francis|Gilmour|Lindros|Perreault|Delvecchio, Oates, Stastny
9|Maltsev|Thornton|Perreault|Oates|Stastny|Gilmour|Francis|Delvecchio|Hawerchuk, Lindros, Malkin
10|Delvecchio|Ratelle|Perreault|Smith|Lindros|Oates|Datsyuk|Hawerchuk|Bowie, Larionov, Malkin
11|Smith|Perreault|Ratelle|Petrov|Modano|Malkin|Datsyuk|Hawerchuk|Bowie, Larionov, MacKay, Savard
12|Petrov|Barry|Ratelle|Modano|Hawerchuk|Savard|MacKay|Fredrickson|Larionov, Primeau, Sittler, Sundin
13|Petrov|Sittler|Savard|Fredrickson|MacKay|Nedomansky|Larionov|Zetterberg|Keats, Lafontaine, Lemaire, Primeau, Sundin
14|Fredrickson|Sittler|Nedomansky|Sundin|Keats|Foyston|Zetterberg|Lafontaine|Dunderdale, Lemaire, McGee, Morris, Primeau, Sedin
15|||||||||
16||||||

Highest

Vote 13: Sittler 2nd

Lowest

NONE

MadArcand · Mar 24, 2014

The initial placements of Crosby and Malkin are awesome. :yo:

But what made you fall in love with Crosby in the voting?

Say Hey Kid · Mar 24, 2014

MadArcand said:
The initial placements of Crosby and Malkin are awesome....

Agreed. You need 800 points in the post-O6 era to crack the top 50.

TheDevilMadeMe · Mar 24, 2014

MadArcand said:
The initial placements of Crosby and Malkin are awesome.

But what made you fall in love with Crosby in the voting?

I can't speak for him entirely, but I'm sure a huge part of it is that the original VsX tables only went through 2011-12. Sturminator loves looking an aggregate of a player's best 7 years, and remember that he was the main force behind the use of VsX. Once Crosby's 2012-13 was included in the Vs-X calculations, his ranking in the metric shot up considerably, and it would go up even more if 2013-14 were included. So my guess is that Sturminator decided that Crosby's last year or two was enough to give him a long enough prime to be ranked accordingly.

___________________

It's really a shame that Sturminator disappeared before voting in Round 15. I would imagine Roenick would have won outright then, without the need for a tiebreak round.

Dennis Bonvie · Mar 24, 2014

Of active players, Joe Thornton 30th and no one else until Crosby at 52. Hmmmmm

Another voter who switched to Sakic over Esposito in round 2.

Another Pat Lafontaine at 60th. That one seems nearly set in stone.

Almost had Phil Goyette on my list also.

Dennis Bonvie · Mar 24, 2014

Hawkman said:
Agreed. You need 800 points in the post-O6 era to crack the top 50.

Is that common knowledge? I missed it.

Rob Scuderi · Mar 24, 2014

Dennis Bonvie said:
Is that common knowledge? I missed it.

Agreed, I'm not sure why hitting an arbitrary career total matters. Ovechkin had under 800 points coming into this season, but I think he still did enough to easily be a top 10 all-time LW.

Canadiens1958 · Mar 24, 2014

Counting

Rob Scuderi said:
Agreed, I'm not sure why hitting an arbitrary career total matters. Ovechkin had under 800 points coming into this season, but I think he still did enough to easily be a top 10 all-time LW.

Sense that the initial point was directed at the counting aspect that the project veered towards as opposed to the evaluation objectives.

TheDevilMadeMe · Mar 25, 2014

Canadiens1958 said:
Sense that the initial point was directed at the counting aspect that the project veered towards as opposed to the evaluation objectives.

What counting aspect?

kmad · Mar 25, 2014

Rob Scuderi said:
Agreed, I'm not sure why hitting an arbitrary career total matters. Ovechkin had under 800 points coming into this season, but I think he still did enough to easily be a top 10 all-time LW.

I would laugh at any list that had him outside of the top five LWs.

Canadiens1958 · Mar 25, 2014

Counting

TheDevilMadeMe said:
What counting aspect?

Every thread discussion veered to counting - goals, assists, points, awards and honours etc. VsX is a prime example. Just a more advanced level of county focusing on a differently defined criteria.

Evaluations would involve looking at the value or weight factors of an AST selection in a three team PCHA vs a thirty team NHL or a thirties/forties Hart vs a modern Hart. etc.

Defense is under appreciated because viable counting techniques are not available.

unknown33 · Mar 25, 2014

Canadiens1958 said:
Defense is under appreciated because viable counting techniques are not available.

Supported by the under appreciation of Nighbor and Clarke.

Canadiens1958 · Mar 25, 2014

Counting

unknown33 said:
Supported by the under appreciation of Nighbor and Clarke.

Both have good counting numbers, Hart etc, even Ted Kennedy has a Hart but Clarke's and Kennedy's Harts are the only ones that get denegrated every time they come up for consideration. Usaul arguement centers around players with better counting numbers offensively being viewed as the better choice.

As for Nighbor in the initial project he barely ranked in the top 100.

MXD · Mar 25, 2014

Canadiens1958 said:
Both have good counting numbers, Hart etc, even Ted Kennedy has a Hart but Clarke's and Kennedy's Harts are the only ones that get denegrated every time they come up for consideration. Usaul arguement centers around players with better counting numbers offensively being viewed as the better choice.

As for Nighbor in the initial project he barely ranked in the top 100.

You mean, like some people who diminished what Schmidt, Smith and Colville had done ?

unknown33 · Mar 25, 2014

Canadiens1958 said:
Both have good counting numbers, Hart etc

If it's all about 'counting' it's not even close to 6th place worthy good.
Nighbor has the same Hart count as Henrik Sedin, yet he finished 6th while the other isn't ranked at all.

How does that work out?

Canadiens1958 said:
even Ted Kennedy has a Hart but Clarke's and Kennedy's Harts are the only ones that get denegrated every time they come up for consideration.

They aren't denegrated, they are put into context.
First there are complains about trophy counting, now if they don't.

Which one is it?

Canadiens1958 said:
As for Nighbor in the initial project he barely ranked in the top 100.

Are you trying to argue against your own point here? If his trophy count is so obviously great how come he was overlook last time?

Canadiens1958 · Mar 25, 2014

Counting

unknown33 said:
If it's all about 'counting' it's not even close to 6th place worthy good.
Nighbor has the same Hart count as Henrik Sedin, yet he finished 6th while the other isn't ranked at all.

How does that work out?

They aren't denegrated, they are put into context.
First there are complains about trophy counting, now if they don't.

Which one is it?

Are you trying to argue against your own point here? If his trophy count is so obviously great how come he was overlook last time?

No.

Since 2008 Frank Nighbor has not played one game. In 2008 he was ranked 95th. He has not won any more awards since 2008. The Hart Trophy was presented to NHL players starting in the second half of Nighbor's career. Henrik Sedin won his Hart in 2010 so the comparable is out of time in the context of 2008.

Point is that since 2008 the emphasis of the counting may have changed for certain players.

Hardyvan123 · Mar 25, 2014

MXD said:
You mean, like some people who diminished what ]Schmidt, Smith and Colville had done ?

The weakness of these 3 players offensive resumes is there in plain sight.

The intangible argument seems to bump up certain players, ie guys we have never seen while for modern guys it seems to be a minor factor for the most part.

I love 2 way guys but it's extremely hard to pout Nighbor, Clarke and Keon that high and then guys like Feds and Gilmour, while still high seemed to slip in comparison of 2 way guys.

seventieslord · Mar 25, 2014

Hawkman said:
Agreed. You need 800 points in the post-O6 era to crack the top 50.

why on earth would an arbitrary benchmark of raw points be the way to get on the top-50?

seventieslord · Mar 25, 2014

Vancouver Blazers said:
I would laugh at any list that had him outside of the top five LWs.

Well, his career defensive value and playoff value have been dropping like stones in the past two years.

Ishdul · Mar 25, 2014

seventieslord said:
Well, his career defensive value and playoff value have been dropping like stones in the past two years.

I don't think his defensive value has gone down so much as the Capitals defensive value has gone down.

seventieslord · Mar 25, 2014

Ishdul said:
I don't think his defensive value has gone down so much as the Capitals defensive value has gone down.

he seems to be performing a hell of a lot worse defensively than his team.

Ishdul · Mar 25, 2014

seventieslord said:
he seems to be performing a hell of a lot worse defensively than his team.

The fluctuation of his GA rate doesn't really follow that strong of a pattern, mostly because it is tied very heavily to his on-ice save percentage which he has little control over (and the Capitals switch goalies every year it seems). He had a lower goals allowed rate last year than he did in 2008-09.

unknown33 · Mar 28, 2014

Canadiens1958 said:
No.

Point is that since 2008 the emphasis of the counting may have changed for certain players.

Yes.

You've said about this CURRENT project, not about 2008 or that it changed since then for some players:

Every thread discussion veered to counting - goals, assists, points, awards and honours etc. VsX is a prime example. Just a more advanced level of county focusing on a differently defined criteria.

Evaluations would involve looking at the value or weight factors of an AST selection in a three team PCHA vs a thirty team NHL or a thirties/forties Hart vs a modern Hart. etc.

Defense is under appreciated because viable counting techniques are not available.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=82240179&postcount=11

HOH Top 60 Centers List & Voting Record - Sturminator

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