HOH Top 60 Centers List & Voting Record - MadArcand

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
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Round 1 List

Rank | name
1 | Wayne Gretzky
2 | Mario Lemieux
3 | Jean Beliveau
4 | Stan Mikita
5 | Bobby Clarke
6 | Mark Messier
7 | Phil Esposito
8 | Howie Morenz
9 | Frank Nighbor
10 | Bryan Trottier
11 | Cyclone Taylor
12 | Newsy Lalonde
13 | Milt Schmidt
14 | Joe Sakic
15 | Steve Yzerman
16 | Frank Boucher
17 | Marcel Dionne
18 | Joe Malone
19 | Syl Apps Sr.
20 | Henri Richard
21 | Elmer Lach
22 | Sid Abel
23 | Max Bentley
24 | Ron Francis
25 | Peter Stastny
26 | Ted Kennedy
27 | Hooley Smith
28 | Norm Ullman
29 | Dave Keon
30 | Gilbert Perreault
31 | Sergei Fedorov
32 | Doug Gilmour
33 | Peter Forsberg
34 | Eric Lindros
35 | Igor Larionov
36 | Nels Stewart
37 | Frank McGee
38 | Marty Barry
39 | Russell Bowie
40 | Alex Delvecchio
41 | Mike Modano
42 | Denis Savard
43 | Adam Oates
44 | Dale Hawerchuk
45 | Sidney Crosby
46 | Alexander Maltsev
47 | Joe Thornton
48 | Pavel Datsyuk
49 | Evgeni Malkin
50 | Joe Primeau
51 | Bill Cowley
52 | Mickey MacKay
53 | Jean Ratelle
54 | Darryl Sittler
55 | Vaclav Nedomansky
56 | Vladimir Petrov
57 | Pat Lafontaine
58 | Jacques Lemaire
59 | Guy Carbonneau
60 | Frank Fredrickson
61 | Frank Foyston
62 | Duke Keats
63 | Rod Brind'amour
64 | Henrik Zetterberg
65 | Mats Sundin
66 | Vyacheslav Starshinov
67 | Tommy Dunderdale
68 | Bernie Morris
69 | Bernie Federko
70 | Joe Nieuwendyk
71 | Jeremy Roenick
72 | Neil Colville
73 | Phil Watson
74 | Walt Tkaczuk
75 | Ralph Backstrom
76 | Jack Adams
77 | Henrik Sedin
78 | Don McKenney
79 | Milan Novy
80 | Dan Bain

Players from our final top 60 not ranked in this top 60
Duke Keats at 62
Henrik Zetterberg at 64
Mats Sundin at 65
Neil Colville at 72

Players unique to this list
NONE

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Bobby Clarke at 5 - next highest at 6
Elmer Lach at 21 - next highest at 22
Sid Abel at 22 - next highest at 23

Players ranked 2nd highest on this list
Frank McGee at 37

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Bill Cowley at 51 - next lowest at 49

Players ranked 2nd lowest on this list
Howie Morenz at 8
Joe Sakic at 14 (tied with 2 others)
Steve Yzerman at 15 (tied with 1 other)
Peter Forsberg at 33
Mats Sundin at 65

Round 2 voting

Round | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | none
1 | Gretzky | Lemieux | Beliveau | Mikita | Morenz | Clarke | Messier | Esposito | Trottier
2 | Mikita | Clarke | Messier | Esposito | Nighbor | Trottier | Taylor | Lalonde | Sakic, Yzerman
3 | Esposito | Trottier | Taylor | Lalonde | Sakic | Schmidt | Yzerman | Dionne | Apps
4 | Lalonde | Schmidt | Yzerman | Dionne | Apps | Malone | Boucher | Richard | Forsberg
5 | Schmidt | Richard | Malone | Dionne | Kennedy | Bentley | Forsberg | Fedorov | Crosby
6 | Malone | Kennedy | Lach | Stastny | Cowley | Bentley | Keon | Fedorov | Abel, Crosby, Stewart, Ullman
7 | Francis | Lach | Stastny | Cowley | Bentley | Keon | Fedorov | Ullman | Abel, Delvecchio, Stewart
8 | Francis | Keon | Abel | Stastny | Perreault | Stewart | Fedorov | Gilmour | Delvecchio, Lindros, Oates
9 | Francis | Gilmour | Stastny | Delvecchio | Perreault | Lindros | Oates | Thornton | Hawerchuk, Malkin, Maltsev
10 | Smith | Bowie | Delvecchio | Lindros | Perreault | Ratelle | Larionov | Oates | Datsyuk, Hawerchuk, Malkin
11 | Smith | Bowie | Perreault | Ratelle | Modano | Larionov | Savard | Hawerchuk | Datsyuk, MacKay, Malkin, Petrov
12 | Modano | Barry | Ratelle | Larionov | Savard | Hawerchuk | Petrov | MacKay | Fredrickson, Primeau, Sittler, Sundin
13 | Larionov | Savard | Sittler | Nedomansky | Petrov | Primeau | MacKay | Zetterberg | Fredrickson, Keats, Lafontaine, Lemaire, Sundin
14 | McGee | Nedomansky | Sittler | Primeau | Zetterberg | Sundin | Fredrickson | Foyston | Dunderdale, Keats, Lafontaine, Lemaire, Morris, Sedin
15 | McGee | Lemaire | Foyston | Keats | Primeau | Lafontaine | Brind'Amour | Carbonneau | Colville, Dunderdale, Federko, Morris, Nieuwendyk, Novy, Roenick, Sedin, Starshinov, Stamkos, Turgeon
16 | Foyston | Primeau | Colville | Roenick | Lafontaine | Sedin | | |

Highest vote
Round 7: Francis 1st
Round 8: Francis 1st
Round 9: Francis 1st
Round 10: Smith 1st
Round 14: McGee 1st
Round 15: McGee 1st

Lowest vote
Round 2: Sakic NR
 
Last edited:

bigbuffalo313

Registered User
Apr 28, 2012
4,135
57
New York
24 | Ron Francis

Highest vote
Round 7: Francis 1st
Round 8: Francis 1st
Round 9: Francis 1st

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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
Heh. Mad sure wasn't shy about voting players he likes 1st in Round 2.

His round 1 list was solid enough - with the exception of obvious mistakes with Morenz and Cowley that he corrected in Round 2 - Mad does seem to prefer players he hasn't seen over players he has seen (with the exception of Francis and I guess a fairly high vote for Brind'amour) - but nothing too out there.

Mad also had the lowest ranking for Sedin (77th) of anyone who had him on his list, but 2 guys left Sedin off entirely.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,206
17,561
Connecticut
Heh. Mad sure wasn't shy about voting players he likes 1st in Round 2.

His round 1 list was solid enough - with the exception of obvious mistakes with Morenz and Cowley that he corrected in Round 2 - Mad does seem to prefer players he hasn't seen over players he has seen (with the exception of Francis and I guess a fairly high vote for Brind'amour) - but nothing too out there.

Mad also had the lowest ranking for Sedin (77th) of anyone who had him on his list, but 2 guys left Sedin off entirely.

I wouldn't call them mistakes.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
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The obvious was his treatment of Crosby, Malkin, Sundin and heck even Sedin and Stamkos in contrast to guys like McGee,Smith and Franics and Primeau.

No idea on what type of metric was being used there but he didn't count Crosby's seasons right during the discussion so maybe it was just a colossal mistake?

Pretty solid list overall despite some suspect voting patterns.
 
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MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
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The obvious was his treatment of Crosby, Malkin, Sundin and heck even Sedin and Stamkos in contrast to guys like McGee,Smith and Franics and Primeau.

No idea on what type of metric was being used there but he didn't count Crosby's seasons right during the discussion so maybe it was just a colossal mistake?

Pretty solid list overall despite some suspect voting patterns.
I place more emphasis on defensive play than most.

I also made no mistake with Crosby, he's just unimpressive (just look at the last Olympics) compared to the preceding generation of centers, and I've seen his whole career.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
I place more emphasis on defensive play than most.

I also made no mistake with Crosby, he's just unimpressive (just look at the last Olympics) compared to the preceding generation of centers, and I've seen his whole career.

And yet you were the 2nd lowest vote for Yzerman, Sakic (tied), and Forsberg
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
And just how great of a spread of placements for Sakic and Yzerman are we talking of in the whole project? I doubt it's more than say 5 spots.

Forsberg has a whole set of problems that take down his value.

You're forgetting the Edler's list, where he had Yzerman 20th and Sakic 21st. Other than that list, everyone had Sakic between 7th and 14th. Someone we haven't seen yet had Yzerman in 5th. Other than him and Edler, everyone had Yzerman between 9 and 15. So you're mostly right about them having a narrow spread, though it is a bit larger than 5 points.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
17,552
24
Vancouver
I place more emphasis on defensive play than most.

I also made no mistake with Crosby, he's just unimpressive (just look at the last Olympics) compared to the preceding generation of centers, and I've seen his whole career.

Well sid was actually pretty good in the last Olmpics so maybe that's part of the problem eh?

Also how are Cowley and Perreault ahead of Feds in 2 consecutive rounds then?
emphasis is fine but consistency is better.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,668
16,394
Well sid was actually pretty good in the last Olmpics so maybe that's part of the problem eh?

Also how are Cowley and Perreault ahead of Feds in 2 consecutive rounds then?
emphasis is fine but consistency is better.

Cowley ahead of Fedorov shouldn't exactly come as a surprise in any voting record...
 

MadArcand

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Dec 19, 2006
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Well sid was actually pretty good in the last Olmpics so maybe that's part of the problem eh?
Not sure if serious. 1 G & 2 A in 6 games is good for offense-only supposed legend?

Also how are Cowley and Perreault ahead of Feds in 2 consecutive rounds then?
emphasis is fine but consistency is better.
I have heavily underrated Cowley in round 1 due to the war years. I rectified it in round 2. I don't see why it would be oh-so unusual.
 

unknown33

Registered User
Dec 8, 2009
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Modano vs. Crosby: At some point there needs to be some common sense, watching the player and following the NHL applied in my opinion...
 

kmad

riot survivor
Jun 16, 2003
34,133
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Vancouver
Triple longevity and infinitely better defensively. Crosby offensively dominating a very weak competition doesn't close the gap.

I don't think this is weak competition. There might not be many outliers, but that speaks to the fact that defensive play all around has been elevated to the point where becoming a statistical outlier is significantly more difficult. I think that makes Crosby's dominance far more impressive.
 

MadArcand

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Dec 19, 2006
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I don't think this is weak competition. There might not be many outliers, but that speaks to the fact that defensive play all around has been elevated to the point where becoming a statistical outlier is significantly more difficult. I think that makes Crosby's dominance far more impressive.
You might be onto something with the defensiveness, but I still don't like the offensive talent pool when compared to the 90s. But to each his own.

unknown33 said:
Modano vs. Crosby: At some point there needs to be some common sense, watching the player and following the NHL applied in my opinion...
Watched both throughout their careers. Doesn't change anything at who I value higher as of right now. And frankly, Crosby isn't world-shattering talented. Thrown into the 90s, I doubt he'd look that great compared to say Fedorov, Sakic or Forsberg. Competing against the likes of Malkin or Stamkos makes you seem better when compared to guys who faced Wayne or Mario.
 

MadArcand

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I don't think it's irrational. Preferring a player who is greatly superior defensively, a better skater and who played for thrice as long over Crosby is not the heresy you'd like to paint it as.
 

unknown33

Registered User
Dec 8, 2009
3,942
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Compared to the final ranking gained/lost spots

Eric Lindros +3
Peter Forsberg -13
Sidney Crosby -23


How does that happen with your criteria. :huh:
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,668
16,394
I don't think this is weak competition. There might not be many outliers, but that speaks to the fact that defensive play all around has been elevated to the point where becoming a statistical outlier is significantly more difficult. I think that makes Crosby's dominance far more impressive.

While I think you are ultimately right (current competition isn't as bad as Mad makes it to be), this is one of the biggest problem when ranking active players.

Their legacy isn't over, and their "competition assessment" is certainly not established either.

In 15 years, Malkin might be seen as an extremely weak Art Ross winner. For whatever reason.
 

MadArcand

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Dec 19, 2006
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About my initial logic when ranking Forsberg/Lindros...

- both made of glass, both because of their own playstyle
- Forsberg significantly better playmaker & better defensively, Lindros significantly better goalscorer & more physical
- both dominant impact players at their peaks

They seemed very close to me, and I ranked them as such. I still don't see why there should be such a huge gap between them, TBH.

Crosby is a different animal.
 

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