HOH Top 40 Goaltenders - Round 1 Voting Results (Aggregate List)

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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HOH Top 40 Goaltenders - Round 1 Voting Results
Goalies Aggregate.jpg

This list is the result from Round 1 of voting to generate a list of players for Round 2. It is not the final result.

Definitions
# of Lists: The number of top 60 lists (out of 27 total lists) on which the player was listed.
Voting Points: The number of voting points the player received. 60 points for 1st, 59 points for 2nd, and so on down to 1 point for 60th.
Average Ranking: The average placement of a player on the lists on which he appeared only. For example, Kirk McLean was ranked on one list only, at spot #52. His average ranking is 52.
Change: The change from the aggregate list to the final list
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Biggest risers
Georges Vezina +7
Chuck Rayner +6
Henrik Lundqvist +6
Percy LeSueur +5
Charlie Gardiner +4
Tom Barrasso +4
Roy Worters +3
Hugh Lehman +3

Biggest fallers
Alec Connell -8
Bernie Parent -5
Johnny Bower -5
Ed Giacomin -4
Rogie Vachon -4
Bill Durnan -3

Gerry Cheevers fell at least 3 spots to be out of the top 40 and Lorne Chabot fell at least 1 spot to be out of the top 40.
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,824
16,555
I understand pretty much everything.

Except one thing : MIKE PALMATEER?!?!?!

First two comparables I thought of : Byron Dafoe and Carey Price.

Am I off?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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I, for one, was really surprised by the lack of diversity on the lists. We asked 27 people to list 60 goalies each and only got 94 unique names.

I guess that's the result of having a couple of preliminary discussion threads beforehand.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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I, for one, was really surprised by the lack of diversity on the lists. We asked 27 people to list 60 goalies each and only got 94 unique names.

I guess that's the result of having a couple of preliminary discussion threads beforehand.

It's not only that...
I mean, I strongly suspect that if I would have had Carey Price on my list, it would have made it a candidate for rejection (with cause, I might add).

In fact... I'm actually willing to learn something I don't know about Mike Palmateer. Here's a guy I probably wouldn't have put in my Top-100 (the same Top-100 that would have been rounded out by guys like Jake Forbes, in some of my examples).
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
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tually willing to learn something I don't know about Mike Palmateer.

I was curious, myself:

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/palmateer.html

His first three NHL regular seasons were tremendous (he even had two Hasekian seasons of 45 and 51 goals prevented above average). His next four were slightly below league average, and he fell off the cliff at the age of thirty in 1983-84 (10 goals below replacement level).

His first two playoffs were also quite good.

Overall, I have his NHL career as 75 goals above average in the regular season, with an additional 19 above average in the playoffs. (Acknowledging that there's more to this than stats, particularly save percentage), It'd be hard to justify him in my personal top 100.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,824
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I was curious, myself:

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/palmateer.html

His first three NHL regular seasons were tremendous (he even had two Hasekian seasons of 45 and 51 goals prevented above average). His next four were slightly below league average, and he fell off the cliff at the age of thirty in 1983-84 (10 goals below replacement level).

His first two playoffs were also quite good.

Overall, I have his NHL career as 75 goals above average in the regular season, with an additional 19 above average in the playoffs. It'd be hard to justify him in my personal top 100.

Well, the statsheet certainly screams "better than Dafoe". I'd also be inclined to rank him above Price (until the end of the current season at the very least).

Okay, I'm convinced he deserves to be ranked higher than Price or Dafoe (seriously, it never crossed my mind that, as a whole, Dafoe was a well-below average goalie, in spite having one very good season). Maybe I just overrated a bit the late 70ies Leafs...?
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
13,553
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Agreed on Dafoe (perhaps other than the "well below" part).

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/dafoe.html

I've got him at 17 goals below average in the regular season (147 goals above replacement), and another 8 below average in the playoffs. As you noted, he had one eye-opening regular season.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,560
18,068
Connecticut
I, for one, was really surprised by the lack of diversity on the lists. We asked 27 people to list 60 goalies each and only got 94 unique names.

I guess that's the result of having a couple of preliminary discussion threads beforehand.

Too many other lists to use as guides.

Consider also that only 2 goalies from this top 40 (37th and 39th) didn't make the final top 40. That's pretty much a consensus on something I thought couldn't possibly have one.
 

ContrarianGoaltender

Registered User
Feb 28, 2007
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tcghockey.com
Well, the statsheet certainly screams "better than Dafoe". I'd also be inclined to rank him above Price (until the end of the current season at the very least).

Okay, I'm convinced he deserves to be ranked higher than Price or Dafoe (seriously, it never crossed my mind that, as a whole, Dafoe was a well-below average goalie, in spite having one very good season). Maybe I just overrated a bit the late 70ies Leafs...?

It's probably more likely that I underrated the late '70s Leafs.

I was the guy that listed Palmateer, and I did so for several reasons. My initial list was peak-heavy, quite likely too peak-heavy. If you look at best 3 and 5-year stretches, Palmateer shows up very well relative to most guys in that range in terms of stats like save percentage, GAR and GVT, and that's just if you take his numbers at face value:

1976-77 to 1978-79:
1. Ken Dryden, .917
2. Chico Resch, .913
3. Mike Palmateer, .908
4. Billy Smith, .908
5. Tony Esposito, .905

He also completely dismantled his backups in his first Toronto stint ('76-77 to '79-80):

Palmateer: 99-72-30, 3.07, 15 SO
Backups: 44-62-13, 3.87, 3 SO

Most of them weren't great goalies of course (although Wayne Thomas wasn't too bad), but that's the sort of outperformance that makes you take notice.

If the Leafs weren't that good defensively, then Palmateer starts to look quite frankly outstanding in terms of peak performance relative to the other guys in that range (again if you aren't looking at things like award voting, trophies and team success, which I generally am not). His playoff numbers were also very good, albeit in a small sample. Yes, he apparently fell off a cliff later in his career, but to me those kinds of numbers over that sample size in that kind of team context would seem to indicate some true talent, and I'd rather rate a guy with probable talent above a guy who never proved he was any better than his teammates.

Another huge part of it is that I don't trust goalie rankings and awards from the '70s all that much because the team effects are so obviously huge (I think I made that case a few times in the Giacomin debates). I probably went a bit too far (maybe going a bit too contrarian, I'm quite prone to that obviously) in terms of pulling out some of the less known '70s goalies and giving them the benefit of the doubt over the guys who played on good teams, which is why Palmateer, Dan Bouchard and Gilles Meloche all made my list while guys like Roger Crozier and Don Edwards did not.

I'm not sure if Palmateer would make my list if I went though it again, I probably would put a guy with more longevity on there ahead of him to be honest, but he's an interesting case of a guy who very likely had a peak that was much better than he's usually given credit for.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
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Too many other lists to use as guides.

Consider also that only 2 goalies from this top 40 (37th and 39th) didn't make the final top 40. That's pretty much a consensus on something I thought couldn't possibly have one.

We definitely didn't have the huge rises and falls of the defensemen project.

In that project, you had

Hod Stuart +15
Ching Johnson +9
Eddie Gerard +8
Art Coulter +8
Frantisek Pospisil +8
Lester Patrick +6
Alexei Kasatonov +5
Moose Johnson +5
Sprague Cleghorn +4
Bill Quackenbush +4T
Babe Seibert +4
King Clancy +3
Ken Reardon +3
Harvey Pulford +3

Larry Murphy -11
Butch Bouchard -9
Scott Niedermayer -5
Jacques Laperriere -5
Al MacInnis -4
Rob Blake -4
Harry Cameron -4
Brian Leetch -3
Serge Savard -3
JC Tremblay -3
Carl Brewer -3
Tom Johnson -3
Sylvio Mantha -3

What explains the discrepancy?

1) Voters did a better job on our round 1 lists this time.
2) Voters were less willing to be swayed by arguments this time.
3) There was more room for movement on a longer list.

Maybe a combination of the 3.
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
4,981
2,363
By the way, I was the dunce who left Mike Liut off my original list of 60.

Reason being, I started by ranking my top 25, then populated the rest of the list drawing from 3 long-lists: players I saw play, "history book" type players between Vezina and Dryden, and an older, more esoteric list.

Smith and Fuhr were in the top 25, and Liut was the only other goalie of particular note who fell awkwardly between the "contemporary" list and "history book list."

I'm glad for the sake of my own ego that this wasn't enough to torpedo my list, but I'm glad he ended up making the cut in the top 40. My stupid.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,560
18,068
Connecticut
By the way, I was the dunce who left Mike Liut off my original list of 60.

Reason being, I started by ranking my top 25, then populated the rest of the list drawing from 3 long-lists: players I saw play, "history book" type players between Vezina and Dryden, and an older, more esoteric list.

Smith and Fuhr were in the top 25, and Liut was the only other goalie of particular note who fell awkwardly between the "contemporary" list and "history book list."

I'm glad for the sake of my own ego that this wasn't enough to torpedo my list, but I'm glad he ended up making the cut in the top 40. My stupid.

I would hope leaving Liut off would not be grounds for torpedoing your list.

After all, its not like you left off Tim Thomas or Alec Connell.
 

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