HOH: Crosby to Columbus?

[Dadof5boys]

Assuming there's a 2005-06 season, I'd prefer the draft be pushed back until the All-Star break and the standings at the 41 game point be used to determine the order using the lottery system in the old CBA. Combining All-Star weekend with the draft would give the NHL some much needed positive publicity. It would get a lot more coverage than either event gets on its own.

I'd keep the draft on this schedule permanantly and use the final 41 games of the previous season plus the first 41 games of the following season to determine the selection order in subsequent drafts. The NHL could still hold a June draft to handle unsigned players who re-enter the draft.

As long as as the players are NHL players and not Replacements, I wouldn't have a problem with this plan. As for using past seasons, like Greg Stack, I think teams have already been compensated for those poor seasons with past high picks, so using past seasons wouldn't be fair to me. I am probably in the minority of the small market fans who believe everyone should have a shot at higher picks. Since no one has a crystal ball and can look back and see how the last season may have played out or what teams will be great and which ones will decline, the only fair way to do a draft order would be 30 balls in a bag...each team gets ONE ball...start drawing balls...there is your draft order; to make it even fairer, they could do it fantacy style. I can't really see how the NHL could use 03-04 seasons standings especailly since some BIG changes are going to be made. With a new deal, the past better teams(Avs, Wings, Devils, Sens) may have to shed some of their salary losing good players in the process. These players will in turn sign with teams have not been quite as good. My question is why should the large markets have to pay twice for this new deal that is supposed to help all team be more competitive. I think that using past drafts could put the bigger markets too far behind the 8-ball. This is coming from a Preds fan a small market team who thinks if Detroit (whom I DESPISE) gets the first ball they should get the 1st, 60th, 61st picks and so on so be it.

 

[Tawnos]

Take the last 3 seasons, average them and break them up into groups of 5. Re-order each group based on this. It would have to be done on computer... but the first team in the group gets 5 ping-pong balls, the second team gets 4... etc etc.

Let's take the top 5. Columbus, Pittsburgh, Florida, Atlanta, NYRangers.

First draw (Columbus 5, Pittsburgh 4, Florida 3, Atlanta 2, NYRangers 1)
Florida wins first overall pick

Second draw (Columbus 4, Pittsburgh 3, Atlanta 2, NYRangers 1)
Columbus wins second overall pick

Third draw (Pittsburgh 3, Atlanta 2, NYRangers 1)
NYRangers win 3rd overall pick

Fourth draw (Pittsburgh 2, Atlanta 1)
Pittsburgh wins 4th overall pick, Atlanta gets 5th.

Repeat steps for 6-10, 11-15, 16-20, 21-25 and 26-30.

 

[futurcorerock]

Columbus gets Nash AND Crosby? Is that even allowed?

Atlanta gets Kovalchuk, Heatley and Brule? WHAT?

How much do these teams need to be padded with future stars? I mean seriously. Why not give the likes of the Ducks, Canes, or maybe even my Flames a shot at Crosby?

The Flames have never been in the top 5, not once.

This arrangement seems fair to me though, Washington has a wealth of prospects as it is and they already have their franchise player.

The teams can be padded as much as they want... its their fault for sucking.

I don't buy the flames argument... they've been middle of the pack and just on the verge of competing. What the hell do you want? They've got Dion Phaneuf. That's called good drafting on their part. Oh, did you forget that he's got his own hype too? "The Next Scott Stevens"

Plus, by no means does it say that Ilya Kovalchuk will stay a Thrasher, or Nikolai Zherdev will stay a Blue Jacket. Theres a little something called Unrestricted Free Agency that'll come up. And don't forget... there's always trades. Dallas traded Iginla

 

[Wetcoaster]

Why does there have to be a CBA?

If the league imposes work conditions -- via impasse - that it can make whatever call it wants vis a vis the draft.
If the league goes on to hammer out a cba with the union, it can make it a condition that it won't agree to a deal unless the PA accepts its draft order, and perhaps even the selections (depending if cba is ratified after the June draft.
The league is still in business, even if it doesn't have a work agreement with its players. The tail has wagged the dog too long, folks.

kpd/hoh

Several potential problems with your scenario.

First the NHL would have to get the impasse declaration past the NLRB and given the facts and the case law that is far from a sure thing. Less than 10% of impasse declarations make it past the post.

If the NHL declares an impasse and goes ahead with the draft before the NLRB rules, then they are really rolling the dice because if the declaration is not upheld the NHL has opened itself up to antitrust suits with treble damages.

Can you imagine the Sidney Crosby damage award. What would he have been worth if all 30 teams were bidding for his services???? and then triple it.

Even if the declaration of impasse was approved by the NLRB there may well be antitrust exposure because the US courts have predicated the ability of a CBA to include future players who are not yet members of the union upon the fact there is a negotiated CBA. There is no guarantee that imposed work rules per a bargaining impasse declaration would get around antitrust law for an Entry Draft - in fact based on the case law there is an excellent argument that it does not.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

Eh, Tampa Bay has never won the lottery. We got the #1 pick that we used for Lecavalier via trade.

We also never, ever tanked. We just stank!

Yeah you're right. I forgot about that. It would've originally been FL's pick but they traded it to San Jose for Viktor Kozlov. So FL's won the lottery 4 times technically (2003-traded,2002-traded,1998-traded,1994-Jovanovski) since its inception...anybody have any objections to not allowing them a chance to win it?

 

[Buffaloed]

As long as as the players are NHL players and not Replacements, I wouldn't have a problem with this plan. As for using past seasons, like Greg Stack, I think teams have already been compensated for those poor seasons with past high picks, so using past seasons wouldn't be fair to me.

I agree. If they can't do it as I proposed with standings determined by NHL players, they should draw the names out of a hat with every team having an equal chance. It would be quite an event for the NHL with 30 teams having a shot at Sidney.

 

[Icey]

While I believe that there's no perfect way to conduct a draft based upon phantom standings, your suggestion isn't palatable. What if the top five in the draft are Detroit, Colorado, New Jersey, Vancouver, and Tampa Bay?

I think a weighted lottery among all 30 teams is still the way to go. True, the above scenario could still manifest under that procedure, but it'd be much less likely.

What if any one of those teams or all of all them tanked this season? They would have been in the top five in the draft then. Point is you have no idea how any one team will do in any season. After missing the playoffs for how many seasons and all the sudden Calgary is in the finals? Who would have thought. Without Bertuzzi who knows what kind of team Vancouver would have iced, especially with an unproved goaltender.

The only fair way without playing a season is the give all 30 teams an equal chance, its what happens when the owners decide not to play the season.

 

[The Old Master]

seems like everyone is trying to move the numbers around to give their team the best chance to pick first. last yr.,last two yr.s, last three yr.s, every one the same.lottery, no lottery. the draft is setup to help the bad teams get better, so there wont be one or two teams with all the star players are all 30 teams =, NO! so wich are the worst teams now? and how do you decide that? do you go back to 1940? what dose that season have to do with anything? so why go back 3yr.s ?go back two yr.s? ok i can see that. but if you do that then why do you need a lottery? the lottery was installed to stop teams from tanking, nobody tanked last yr. there was no season. if the rangers want the top pick they can trade for it.

 

[Winger98]

Those teams would not be able to afford to keep them all in teh new economic reality. The NHL will be better served having the stars filtered throughout the league and making every team competive. Columbus would be a better team to go see when they come to town with crosby than without right? well this way during 42 games team across the league can benifit from him playing for columbus. I thought the goal was to make the league more competitive than have the stars all playing in the big markets like we had in the past.

While avoiding arguments regarding big markets having all of the talant, I think you hit on one of the NHL's claims for a goal for this CBA, but I don't personally ascribe to it being the right goal.

tThe league does appear to be attempting to "idiot proof" itself and guarantee at least a halfway decent team in every city, they also seem to want to do it not by giving everyone the same advantages, but by giving everyone the same disabilities.

In my opinion, a team should not be penalized through external means, whether it be financially through the size of its market or through the existence of a salary cap, for building a high quality team from the ground up. I'm not talking about teams like Toronto, or a few of the recent incarnations of the Wings, but teams like the old colorado and detroit teams, and the modern TB and Ottawa teams. A franchise that builds its team right, should not be penalized for it because they either don't have the money to spend or because they are not allowed to spend it.

I am all for restricting the ability to build teams largely through free agency, and for overhauling the arbitration process and closing the rookie bonus loopholes. But I am entirely against forcing organizations to become feeder teams for other franchises because they did their job too well. It'll just further reward the incompetancy of less well managed franchises who, to be frank, deserve to fail if they are poorly managed.

As for drawing interest from the fans, I don't think you have to have every team as a possible playoff contender to draw interest. Look at the late 80s/early 90s for hockey which were largey dominated by a few teams. Look at the other three major sports now. Baseball is dominated by the Yankees and Red Sox, yet baseball's popularity appears to be growing. Football has become somewhat dominated by the Patriots, yet their popularity is massive. Basketball may have the closest thing to actual parity right now, but I think their ratings have actually been slipping a bit.

edit: I'm gonna nailed on naming TB as a team that "did it right" with the Khabibulen trade, but oh well the vast majority of their team was built through smart trades and good drafting.

 

[Mothra]

Outraged ???

What do you think every hockey fan other then Washington ones felt like when Washington traded away all its players tanked the season and got Ovechkin as a reward for that ... ??

They were in last place in January.....with Jagr/Lang/Gonchar/Bondra

the idea that they traded these players and then fell apart is just wrong

 

[misterjaggers]

Personally I think that teams that performed poorly have already been rewarded for that. The past four years shouldn't matter a damn.

Straight lottery. Sorry small markets, you guys already cost the Leafs, Flyers, Wings, Avs, Devils, and other larger market teams a shot at the Cup, now we want a shot at Crosby, it's only fair ladies...

Yes. It should be a straight lottery with no strings attached. The fans of all the teams have suffered during this lockout and we should all equally participate in the draft contest as a reward.

 

[Charge_Seven]

what happens IF Tampa Bay wins the lottery and drafts Crosby? ... what then oh mighty one?

If Tampa wins, Tampa wins. Good for them. I don't care if the order ends up with Toronto picking last, I just want an actual unweighted lottery. My oppinion on this is not based on me being a fan of a team who's in the upper echelons of the league, it's based on what is right for the league in it's current position.

 

[Buffaloed]

If Tampa wins, Tampa wins. Good for them. I don't care if the order ends up with Toronto picking last, I just want an actual unweighted lottery. My oppinion on this is not based on me being a fan of a team who's in the upper echelons of the league, it's based on what is right for the league in it's current position.

It would also serve as a long term reminder to the NHL and the fans so we never have to repeat another lockout.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I am in favor of any weighted lottery that involves all 30 teams, so one that takes the regular-season records over a four-year period (basically, since the league went to 30 clubs) makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[me2]

What if any one of those teams or all of all them tanked this season? They would have been in the top five in the draft then. Point is you have no idea how any one team will do in any season. After missing the playoffs for how many seasons and all the sudden Calgary is in the finals? Who would have thought. Without Bertuzzi who knows what kind of team Vancouver would have iced, especially with an unproved goaltender.

Calgary might not make the playoffs next year, but they wouldn't finish in the bottom 5.

With or without Bertuzzi the Nucks wouldn't finish in the bottom 5.

 

[Trizent]

Just a variation on the 30 teams with one ball lottery. I would give non-playoff teams from 2003-04 2 balls.

Draw and establish 1-30 for the draft. But Round 2 would be 30-1, ROund 3 1-30, 4th 30-1, etc. just to make it a bit more even.

 

[Mess]

"Bettman also said that if there's no agreement, the 2005 draft would be postponed."

It has been confirmed by Bettman from the BOG meetinings ..

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/hockey/panthers/sfl-russo06mar06,0,4485622.column?coll=sfla-sports-panthers

 

[emillie]

I don't think it works. Over the last years teams like Columbus and the Thrashers, who you have getting the top two picks, have been getting better and doing better in the season because those young players they drafted are developing and I doubt either of them would be that low in the standings if there was a season. While old teams that are losing a lot of their veteran players like the Leafs and Avs, who might not do as well as they have historically, would be stuck with later round picks based on their past preformance which I don't think they can live up to anymore.

I think we'll see an unweighted lottery. Teams like the Wings, Avs and Leafs who want to play hockey but are on board with this lock out to help those teams at the bottom of the NHL are going to lose a lot of their veteran players. They aren't going to just let Bettman tell them they have less of chance to get some good young players now because 1 or 2 years ago they were better then some other teams who already have a lot of good young players. Every team will have a 1/30 chance of getting the 1st overall pick.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I don't think it works. Over the last years teams like Columbus and the Thrashers, who you have getting the top two picks, have been getting better and doing better in the season because those young players they drafted are developing and I doubt either of them would be that low in the standings if there was a season. While old teams that are losing a lot of their veteran players like the Leafs and Avs, who might not do as well as they have historically, would be stuck with later round picks based on their past preformance which I don't think they can live up to anymore.

I think we'll see an unweighted lottery. Teams like the Wings, Avs and Leafs who want to play hockey but are on board with this lock out to help those teams at the bottom of the NHL are going to lose a lot of their veteran players. They aren't going to just let Bettman tell them they have less of chance to get some good young players now because 1 or 2 years ago they were better then some other teams who already have a lot of good young players. Every team will have a 1/30 chance of getting the 1st overall pick.

You keep telling yourself that . . . over and over if it makes you feel better. It's not going to happen, but it is nice to dream I suppose.

 

[wedge]

Is it important to have a draft in the summer?

I'm not sure of what I'm talking about, but isn't baseball having his draft during the season?

So, if there is a season with the NHL players, they could do a draft at mid-season with the standings. And then, at the end of the season, doing another draft.

But I think it wouldn't be fair because all the bad teams would get 2 great prospects while the good teams would get regular prospects. But anyway...

My idea has always been to cancel the draft and put the age of entry at 19. We often say that 18 is too young to get in the NHL. Maybe 19 would be better.

 

[Colt.45Orr]

The NHL should have a draft this June -- cba or no cba -- and the best basis for draft order should be the cumulative record of the Original 30 over the last FOUR seasons (including late-comers Minny and Columbus).
Following then should be the draft order -- team name, followed by total points over last four seasons.
1. Columbus (252)
2. Atlanta (266)
3. Florida (271)
4. Pitt (288)
5. NY Rangers (299)

6. Chicago (305)
7. Anaheim (306)
8. Nashville (314)
9. Carolina (316)
10. Minnesota (319)

11. Calgary (321)
12. NY Isles (322)
13. Tampa Bay (327)
14. Montreal (327)
15. Phoenix (331)

16. Washington (333)
17. Buffalo (337)
18. Los Angeles (346)
19. Edmonton (366)
20. San Jose (371)

21. Boston (380)
22. Vancouver (389)
23. St. Louis (391)
24. Toronto (391)
25. Dallas (404)

26. Philadelphia (405)
27. New Jersey (414)
28. Ottawa (418)
29. Colorado (422)
30. Detroit (446)

Easy enough, right? Fair. Concise.
Let the drafting begin, followed by the PA's grievance.

kpd/hoh

Lemme see if I got this straight KPD...



1)You are in the Hockey Hall of Fame as a writer.

...


2)You were just named Sportswriter of the Year in North America.


....




3) You are a Bruins fan.



....




4) ALL YOU CAN COME UP WITH IN THAT BRILLIANT MIND OF YOURS IS A SCHEME THAT SEES THE BRUINS GET THE 21st OVERALL PICK??????

Booooooooo....

I saw let the picks go in order of the worst Owners in hockey. Repay the fans loyalty (and $) for having total duds as Owners

That way Boston get's a pick in the top3 and Toronto, Detroit etc get a pick in the end of the round!!! It's brilliant!!!

 

[Wetcoaster]

Is it important to have a draft in the summer?

I'm not sure of what I'm talking about, but isn't baseball having his draft during the season?

So, if there is a season with the NHL players, they could do a draft at mid-season with the standings. And then, at the end of the season, doing another draft.

But I think it wouldn't be fair because all the bad teams would get 2 great prospects while the good teams would get regular prospects. But anyway...

My idea has always been to cancel the draft and put the age of entry at 19. We often say that 18 is too young to get in the NHL. Maybe 19 would be better.

The problem that arises is that the normally draft-eligible juniors (at least the top-end of the draft) could declare themselves to be free agents.

Raising the age of the draft would run into problems with antitrust laws.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Does anyone really still believe that there will be an 'eqaul chance for all 30 teams' lottery? I am not asking you to honestly comment on what you want, not on what you think is 'fair' . . . but what you actually believe will happen. All leaks that I have seen have had variations of draft scenerios, but none have the equal chance for all variation. The only reference at all to an equal chance for all 30 teams option was in the Strachan article and in that article it was said that a couple of big market teams brought it up and it was quickly shot down.

Face it, none of us know what final option will be chosen, but if your team is a bottom five or so team it can feel pretty good about where it is positioned.

 

[jacketracket*]

I don't think it works. Over the last years teams like Columbus and the Thrashers, who you have getting the top two picks, have been getting better and doing better in the season because those young players they drafted are developing and I doubt either of them would be that low in the standings if there was a season.

Not to nitpick, but Columbus' on-ice performance appears to have only gotten worse. In fact, as a season-tix holder, I'm almost afraid to think of how they'd muck it up if they had a talent like Crosby.

That said, I agree with the notion that any recent suckiness has already been rewarded.

IMO, all "debts" are paid, and each team should go into a non-standings based entry draft on equal footing --- all with a chance to win the top pick.

 

[X0ssbar]

Does anyone really still believe that there will be an 'eqaul chance for all 30 teams' lottery? I am not asking you to honestly comment on what you want, not on what you think is 'fair' . . . but what you actually believe will happen. All leaks that I have seen have had variations of draft scenerios, but none have the equal chance for all variation. The only reference at all to an equal chance for all 30 teams option was in the Strachan article and in that article it was said that a couple of big market teams brought it up and it was quickly shot down.

Face it, none of us know what final option will be chosen, but if your team is a bottom five or so team it can feel pretty good about where it is positioned.

I agree, there is absolutely no chance that there will be a draft where all teams have an equal shot at the Crosby Cup.

As a Columbus fan, I would trade a shot a Crosby in a heartbeat for the success that teams such as Detroit and Colorado have had over the last five years. Fans of teams that have been successfull over the past few years can't have their cake and eat it too.

One idea that has been brought up and I think would be fair is to have some kind of weighted tierd lottery and then have a fantasy style, reverse order draft - i.e.the team with the 30th pick gets also gets the 31st and so on. Its not Crosby but it does somewhat compensate the bottom teams in the draft order for a missed season and the 'uncertainty factor'.

Regardless I think one thing we can all agree on is that whatever draft system is chosen there are going to be some unhappy teams.