Hockey's Future Spring 2006 Organizational Rankings (16-30)

[Garbs]

Pogge and Rask are about as unproven as they come and could either be stars or nothing.

In a thread concerning prospects, is this not the dumbest thing you've ever read? Goodness, you mean these young untested players could prove to be failures? Oh no! I hope for the sake of other franchises, this is only a Toronto thing!

God knows you'd have us believe that.

How exactly does one prospect distinguish himself as a proven commodity compared to another? With regards to the goaltender pool, Rask and Pogge are about as proven as you get, whether you're going to admit that or not.

 

[Belgian Fan]

That's not at all relevent.

A development system for prospects has very little to do with Pierre Lacroix's trades.

He still drafted a top defenseman...

So that means he isn't an NHL player? I mean if the people at hfboards.com say so..

You're out to lunch on this whole Av's thing, just admit it.

Whoa, a Canuck fan and an Oiler fan are supporting the Avs system. Typical North West division bias

Actually it is pretty relevant. Some of the guys mentioned have become nothing, in fact most of them. It is also pretty relevant that the "awsome" system produced trades like Robyn Regehr + for a handful of games of Theo Fleury. Nieminen for nothing of Kasparitius. Some of the other guys walked. Skoula has been THE longest running joke on this message board and just because other guys like Kurt Sauer and McCormick actually play, doesn't mean they belong in the NHL.

Those were trades trying to gear up for a cup run. It's like saying that the Flyers system is bad because Clarke traded three picks for a couple of games' worth of Adam Oates...
In short: those things happen.


By the way, I never called the system "awesome", I said it was "very solid".

The numbers and the facts are there, the output of solid NHL material is pretty good. Not too much top end talent but what would you expect without any decent first round picks since 1998?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

You might have missed Jay Harrison and Staffan Kronwall play for the Leafs this year. They seem destined to be solid NHL d-men (with a solid chance of becoming top d-men).

Please.

If Jay Harrison and Staffan Kronwall turn into top pairing NHL defenseman, I will buy you a new TV.

Keep dreaming.

 

[AH]

Who cares about all those defensemen Toronto promoted. ALL of them, except Cola, project to be bottom pair defensemen. And even CC is so injury prone, he will likely never gain his potential. Might as well re-name him to Coliacopov.

Bunch of marginal players with low ceilings. Christ, who cares.

 

[BlueAndWhite]

Please.

If Jay Harrison and Staffan Kronwall turn into top pairing NHL defenseman, I will buy you a new TV.

Keep dreaming.

I made a mistake. I meant to say chance of becoming "top four d-men".

Good on you to avoid all the other points directed at your absurd post.

 

[BlueAndWhite]

Who cares about all those defensemen Toronto promoted. ALL of them, except Cola, project to be bottom pair defensemen. And even CC is so injury prone, he will likely never gain his potential. Might as well re-name him to Coliacopov.

Bunch of marginal players with low ceilings. Christ, who cares.

If you didn't care so much why bother with your inane post and waste your time ?

No one is touting the Leafs as having a great prospect system but they are better (IMO) than some are giving them credit for (posters not the HF rankings).

As well we'll ignore the play of these defenseman in the AHL and the NHL - because since you said they project to be bottom pairing defenseman - it must be so.

 

[AH]

If you didn't care so much why bother with your inane post and waste your time ?

No one is touting the Leafs as having a great prospect system but they are better (IMO) than some are giving them credit for (posters not the HF rankings).

As well we'll ignore the play of these defenseman in the AHL and the NHL - because since you said they project to be bottom pairing defenseman - it must be so.

So you have 6 or 7 guys capable of playing (as you guys say). How many are actually going to play in the NHL with the Leafs? none of these guys have an over bearing trade value. You might get mid round picks for them if you put them up on the trade market today. They need playing time to prove their worth in the NHL, because as it stands now, most of them are marginal prospects (except for CC - but again he is too injured).

So are they really prospects at all? No real trade value, and a lack of spots on the NHL team to prove their worth in Toronto. The way I see it, half of those guys will be discarded or be allowed to go elsewhere for next to nothing.

 

[BlueAndWhite]

So you have 6 or 7 guys capable of playing (as you guys say). How many are actually going to play in the NHL with the Leafs? none of these guys have an over bearing trade value. You might get mid round picks for them if you put them up on the trade market today. They need playing time to prove their worth in the NHL, because as it stands now, most of them are marginal prospects (except for CC - but again he is too injured).

So are they really prospects at all? No real trade value, and a lack of spots on the NHL team to prove their worth in Toronto. The way I see it, half of those guys will be discarded or be allowed to go elsewhere for next to nothing.

First off, I was talking about those players as prospects. These are prospect rankings.

If we were to come back at these lists five years down the road - I'm willing to bet than a good portion of the "top prospects" on the 15 best organizations may never play more than 10 NHL games.

Why is that because Toronto MAY (please keep in mind that when I was talking about some of those players, I was talking about their pojections. i.e. some of these guys may never play an NHL game) have some solid depth in the "prospect pipeline" - it's a detriment ?

 

[Garbs]

I made a mistake. I meant to say chance of becoming "top four d-men".

Good on you to avoid all the other points directed at your absurd post.

Wasn't that cute? As if we'd all assume he didn't see it, or something. Haha, awww.

 

[AH]

First off, I was talking about those players as prospects. These are prospect rankings.

If we were to come back at these lists five years down the road - I'm willing to bet than a good portion of the "top prospects" on the 15 best organizations may never play more than 10 NHL games.

Why is that because Toronto MAY (please keep in mind that when I was talking about some of those players, I was talking about their pojections. i.e. some of these guys may never play an NHL game) have some solid depth in the "prospect pipeline" - it's a detriment ?

I know they are prospects. But are they really prospects for the Leafs if they can't play or have no real trade value. If the discarded ones make their way to a club looking for young defensemen, then it's a different story.

I dont know if I make myself clear. I will take the Habs example with regards to goaltending. There are no less than 4 guys in the system (Danis, Price, Halak, Lindberg) with enough skill to make it as a pro. But how many can you have when there are only two spots available in the NHL? We go back to the late 90s when we had Theodore, Garon, Vokoun. Only one guy out of that group was able to get real playing time to prove his worth, while Vokoun was lost on waivers for nothing and Garon had an average return (I know we got Huet but who knew).

 

[BlueAndWhite]

I know they are prospects. But are they really prospects for the Leafs if they can't play or have no real trade value. If the discarded ones make their way to a club looking for young defensemen, then it's a different story.

I dont know if I make myself clear. I will take the Habs example with regards to goaltending. There are no less than 4 guys in the system (Danis, Price, Halak, Lindberg) with enough skill to make it as a pro. But how many can you have when there are only two spots available in the NHL? We go back to the late 90s when we had Theodore, Garon, Vokoun. Only one guy out of that group was able to get real playing time to prove his worth, while Vokoun was lost on waivers for nothing and Garon had an average return (I know we got Huet but who knew).

No, I understand what you are trying to say. I just don't see the relevancy to these rankings or the prospect system as a whole.

The market value of a prospect, their role on their respective team and their eventual return in a trade have no bearing on whether they are a worthwhile prospect or not (for the sake of this discussion).

 

[AH]

No, I understand what you are trying to say. I just don't see the relevancy to these rankings or the prospect system as a whole.

The market value of a prospect, their role on their respective team and their eventual return in a trade have no bearing on whether they are a worthwhile prospect or not (for the sake of this discussion).

I undertand what you say as well, but I am just pointing the relevancy of Leaf fans telling everyone else that they X amount of defensemen in the system hence they cant understand being only 20th, when none of then really stick out at you. It's just quantity and little quality.

Now if you guys tell me you are loaded in the goaltending department, its a different situation due to the quantity AND quality of those guys.

 

[BlueAndWhite]

I undertand what you say as well, but I am just pointing the relevancy of Leaf fans telling everyone else that they X amount of defensemen in the system hence they cant understand being only 20th, when none of then really stick out at you. It's just quantity and little quality.

Now if you guys tell me you are loaded in the goaltending department, its a different situation due to the quantity AND quality of those guys.

I was the one who specifically pointed out the Leafs' defensive prospects.

I also was the one who said that the Leafs should probably be slightly lower because there are teams behind the Leafs who have better prospect pools IMO.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I undertand what you say as well, but I am just pointing the relevancy of Leaf fans telling everyone else that they X amount of defensemen in the system hence they cant understand being only 20th, when none of then really stick out at you. It's just quantity and little quality.

I hazard to guess that you haven't seen them play much, if at all.

Even Leaf fans who have believed the hype and moaned about the Leafs perceived lack of prospects have seen what White, Bell, Harrison, Kronwall, Colaiacovo and to some extent Wozniewski have been able to do in the NHL and have been impressed.

 

[AH]

I hazard to guess that you haven't seen them play much, if at all.

Even Leaf fans who have believed the hype and moaned about the Leafs perceived lack of prospects have seen what White, Bell, Harrison, Kronwall, Colaiacovo and to some extent Wozniewski have been able to do in the NHL and have been impressed.

I do watch them play and except for White none of them stick out. CC did when he played with his open ice hits, but I question if he is too brittle. Then again, White is performing in a non pressure situation, just like the others early in the season (very early).

No one cares for Mr. Octobers and Novembers, unless of course you are playing baseball.

 

[BlueAndWhite]

I do watch them play and except for White none of them stick out. CC did when he played with his open ice hits, but I question if he is too brittle. Then again, White is performing in a non pressure situation, just like the others early in the season (very early).

No one cares for Mr. Octobers and Novembers, unless of course you are playing baseball.

To be honest, I think you are placing far too much importance on this whole "pressure situation". I'm not saying that has NO bearing but you are grossly exaggerating it's importance (esp. over such a short sample).

Brent Seabrooke hasn't played a pressure game arguably all year, does that totally descredit his play ?

And for the nth time, Harrison and Kronwall looked very good in their short time in the NHL. If by didn't stick out you mean they didn't show they could be top pairing d-men then yeah, they "didn't stick out".

That's not to say they will become top four d-men or even NHL d-men but they've definitely shown some very good promise.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I do watch them play and except for White none of them stick out. CC did when he played with his open ice hits, but I question if he is too brittle. Then again, White is performing in a non pressure situation, just like the others early in the season (very early).

No one cares for Mr. Octobers and Novembers, unless of course you are playing baseball.

I wouldn't call a situation where the team literally has to win every game they play to be non-pressure.

 

[Raging Bull]

How can the CHL MVP and a goalie who just won the Best Goaltender award at the WJC not be considered "elite"? Toronto probably has 2 of the top 3 goaltender prospects at the moment.

 

[BlueAndWhite]

How can the CHL MVP and a goalie who just won the Best Goaltender award at the WJC not be considered "elite"? Toronto probably has 2 of the top 3 goaltender prospects at the moment.

I wouldn't go that far.

I think both Pogge and Rask are comfortably in the top ten though.

 

[Raging Bull]

I wouldn't go that far.

I think both Pogge and Rask are comfortably in the top ten though.

Yeah, they are definatley top ten, but what really gets me is some posters saying they are "as unproven as they come". How does this not apply to every single prospect? Pogge and Rask have both shown to perform under pressure at the WJC this year, yet they are some how less proven than other prospects? I just don't understand the logic.

 

[BlueAndWhite]

Yeah, they are definatley top ten, but what really gets me is some posters saying they are "as unproven as they come". How does this not apply to every single prospect? Pogge and Rask have both shown to perform under pressure at the WJC this year, yet they are some how less proven than other prospects? I just don't understand the logic.

I think it's been well established that the comments of the poster who made those remarks were off-base and didn't contain much logic.

 

[AH]

How can the CHL MVP and a goalie who just won the Best Goaltender award at the WJC not be considered "elite"?

Jaroslav Halak? Ever heard of him?

 

[AH]

I wouldn't call a situation where the team literally has to win every game they play to be non-pressure.

uh no, I would call that exactly a non pressure situation. The season is over if you have to win every one of your games with a dozen to go.