Hockey wanted in hockey cities

[SharksDownUnder]

Us Canadians are born with a 'love for hockey' gene that Americans just do not have... It has nothing to do with constant and consistent exposure to a team and sport we (and perhaps our Fathers and Grandfathers) have grown up and grown old with... 'Love for hockey' cannot be learned... You are either born with it, or you're not... Just like some people are born with a 'bitter' gene for having the team they love(d) get moved...

we'll play hockey when it's snowing, blowing, on the street, tennis court, gym and it doesn't matter if you have a net, pylon, two boots, or 2 empties (pregame Molson's)... we are born to play.

I don't agree with all that has been posted.... but hockey is a business and if it can sustain itself in carolina, nashville, colorado, anahiem, florida, atlanta, arizona or dallas.... so be it.

when hockey leaves a "hockey" hotbed... it's often from an economic issue that makes sense to go... (arena's are a HUGE revenue source... hockey is just a tenant/franchise) Just ask mister Tim Leiweke and the Anschutz group in LA (they've built an insane empire since 1999 and it's not because the LA Kings are in a hockey hotbed or have won anything).... hockey is a franchise and a bloody great one! It's ultimately a solid tenant for a real-estate development strategy. What do you think MacDonald's has made their fortune in.... land. Burgers are a means to an end... just like hockey. But if we are talking hockey.... Canadian's live & dream it.

In fact for some owners... they don't care (seem to care) if they actually are losing money... because the revenue they are getting from the team for the arena rental is making them serious cash on the ledge / plus the multipliers for business values to leverage for their next biz/franchise/whatever.

 

[Michael Morbid]

Those numbers are terrible for a state with that population. My hometown has 13 icepads in a 10 KM radius, all of which hockey nightly... the population of my hometown is 100,000 for your information

I said those are the rinks within a 40 mile radius (that's circle incase you didn't know) of the Florida Panthers arena in Sunrise, NOT THE ENTIRE STATE.

 

[espo*]

Not as bad as you might think, son. I think it was just last winter the Golden Wolves went up to Toronto and kicked some pansy Canadian *** in a pretty large tournament.

Must have been some bunch of house league teams.The day any hockey team from Florida comes up here and beats top level teams like a bunch of "pansies" is far,far away my talking through my *** American friend.

I know one thing......you would never come up here and say anything like that.You would find our real quick how ***** we are.

 

[Magnus Fulgur]

It is in the Southern United States (from coast to coast) where most of the population growth will happen in the US from now on. Much of that growth will come from yankees (and 'nucks!) that come on down and bring their hockey passion with them.

In Atlanta, for example, I play pick up with a 40yr. old guy from Boston who is quite good. Oddly, He never SKATED until he moved to Atlanta a few years ago. He wears all Thrashers colours.

Here, it's so much fun to play hockey. I play with born Southerners as well as Russians, Ukranians, Czechs, Canadians, Englishmen, and northern US residents.

I've seen no difference between the passion, attendance, and skill that I've witnessed at GA high school hockey and MA high school hockey.

 

[Timmy]

If you knew ANYTHING about Florida you would know that maybe 20% of the people living in Florida were born in Florida. The other 80% came from someplace much COLDER. I have lived in Florida for 14 years (born in NJ) and I have only 5 friends that were born and raised here while I know hundreds that were born and raised up north in the COLD WEATHER and just as many are Canadian's who live here only in winter. And guess what, they were hockey fans BEFORE they moved to Florida just like I was.

That was supposed to be quoting BigE. Obviously, I think his line of reasoning is off, hence the "Neither is New York" bit.

I have to stop trying to be funny now, because Kirk Muller tells me I have no talent, and has asked me to, for the love of God, stop.

 

[I in the Eye]

Canadian's live & dream it.

Die-hard Canadian hockey fans live & dream hockey... Die-hard American hockey fans live & dream hockey... I see absolutely no reason that even more American hockey fans can't become die-hard fans and live & dream hockey as well... IMO, there is nothing that goes into 'love for hockey' that separates Canadians from Americans, except being exposed to hockey and our respected teams for much longer... Evidence: Detroit, Chicago, Boston, NYR, NYI... What makes these US cities 'hockey markets' is that they've had hockey in these markets for many years - and therefore, they have many more die-hard fans... A 'hockey market', IMO, can be defined simply as how many die-hard fans for the team live within the geographical area - and therefore, follow and support their team during good and not-so-good times... I believe that there are die-hard Toronto fans who love the leafs... Die-hard Canuck fan who love the Canucks... and die-hard Carolina fans who love the Hurricanes... In time, there will be many more Carolina fans who love the Hurricanes... Give the franchise 30-years, and there is no reason that the Hurricanes can't have a following that resembles the best 'hockey markets' in the NHL... especially if the Hurricanes reach the Stanley Cup finals once every 4 years... A Father takes his kids to these Stanley Cup finals, and when the kids become adults, take their kids to the Stanley Cup finals, etc... We aren't born with 'love for hockey', it is learned... If we've had this 'love for hockey' since children, it can seem like we were born with it (as we've never really known life without it)... But we are born with the shape of our nose... the colour of our hair... not love for hockey...

How many years do we give a US hockey market before giving up on it? IMO, if it's a big US market (potential for huge revenue growth), we don't give up on it... We nurture it...

 

[doc5hole]

Don't think, if it means getting big-time TV money, that NHL owners won't completely sell out the game of hockey and put the shootout into the playoffs. Networks will demand it, and there's nothing that's gone on business-wise in the NHL the last 15 years that indicate that tradition or what hockey fans care about will be given any kind of consideration when the almighty dollar is at stake.
The better the NHL does in the southern U.S., the more likely the chance of a real national TV offer. And the more likely the chance of some heartbreaking gutting of the sport as we know it.
The Lightning have a footprint now with roller rinks going up along the west coast of Fla. (there's a nice one 90 minutes south of Tampa right near my folks' house), but the Panthers are sucking wind. And insiders have doubt about the future of the NHL in some other southern cities.
If Carolina wins the Cup, it might stabilize the franchise against the wall of empty seats that greeted the Canes during the 2003-04 season.
Good for the individuals involved, but not for the game IMO.

 

[weezman]

You might want to stop using tuneel vision on your hatred and start focusing on actual facts.

Bettman does not approve or select expansion cities. That is done by the Board of Governors

Don't believe me?
http://slam.canoe.ca/97NHLExpansion/home.html


But hey don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Facts in an internet debate? NEVER!

 

[Fenton]

it's happened, its the way it is.,.get over it.
Besides, I don't think anyone can question how much North Carolina loves their Canes with the crowds those first 2 games, and really the whole playoffs

All the fans are in the building. This applies to a lot of teams in awkward markets.

There were tickets available to game 1 up to atleast 5 hours before the game.

 

[Anton Babchuk]

All the fans are in the building. This applies to a lot of teams in awkward markets.

According to the News & Observer (Raleigh), an average of 108,370 in the Raleigh market watched Games 1 and 2 on OLN.

There were tickets available to game 1 up to atleast 5 hours before the game.

There were tickets released by the NHL on game day. The tickets that were put on sale before (the day after Game 7 against Buffalo) sold out within hours.

 

[Hasbro]

I'll say it.

Provincial hockey snobs are a greater drag on the sport than any newbie southern fan will ever be.

You want to know why hockey is hard to market, it's because of the fart in church reception from real fans to anyone who picked up the sport later than the first trimester or is from the wrong place. And even the transplants from "traditional" "hockey" cities need to make the point about their purity.

Meanwhile college hockey fans were thrilled at the prospect of getting another southern team this year (Kenensaw) because we knew it was helpful to our sport and I've never seen anyone question Alabama-Huntsville's dedication to the sport.

More and more I think the NHL's promotional slogan Hockey is for Everyone has a double meaning.

 

[HughJass*]

I'll say it.

Provincial hockey snobs are a greater drag on the sport than any newbie southern fan will ever be.

You want to know why hockey is hard to market, it's because of the fart in church reception from real fans to anyone who picked up the sport later than the first trimester or is from the wrong place. And even the transplants from "traditional" "hockey" cities need to make the point about their purity.

Meanwhile college hockey fans were thrilled at the prospect of getting another southern team this year (Kenensaw) because we knew it was helpful to our sport and I've never seen anyone question Alabama-Huntsville's dedication to the sport.

More and more I think the NHL's promotional slogan Hockey is for Everyone has a double meaning.

Emphasized with bold type for emphasis. You truly get it.

The funny thing, I actually thought the lock out would make some of this silliness go away. When I saw the first "the game has no hitting or fighting" post months ago I should have known then the "purists" were going to be harping the familiar rhetoric eventually.

 

[bladoww]

You know...it pains me to see a Stanley Cup hoisted in places like Carolina and Tampa Bay. You can't even find a public rink down there. What percentage of the fans in the south can even skate? I know I'm going off on a tangent...but I'd be so much more comfortable with a cup going to Hartford than one going to Carolina. I don't care if another cup is ever won in the states of Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, Texas, or Arizona. Cities like Winnipeg, Quebec City, and Hartford have rabid hockey fans. They're all cities without other top professional sports teams in them. The fact that hockey has to compete in the south with a sport where people make left hand turns for 500 miles before ending right where they started...is disgusting. And forget about competing with college football/basketball in the south. Kansas City, Milwaukee/Green Bay, Seattle, Portland, Hartford, Winnipeg, Quebec City...should all have teams before the likes of these other sites. It's hard enough for hockey to ever grab a foothold of different markets when you consider how few of the potential fans ever played the sport as a kid...or were even a fan of it as a kid for that matter. You have to put teams in markets where kids have a chance to play it. I live in the north and the rinks in the Philadelphia area are few and far in between. I can't imagine what youth hockey is like in south Florida. Not only has the NHL expanded into a lot of questionable markets (simply because they're large TV markets), but they've left behind cities with great heritage and history.

The Minnesota North Stars leaving for Dallas...was probably the worst relocation imaginable. I miss all the old jerseys. Most of the new teams have the most hideous colors, logos, and nicknames ever seen on a professional sports team.

*sigh*

You can go ahead toss my sal*d you closed minded a**-hat. News flash Uncle Rico, it isn't 1982 anymore.

 

[Weary]

All the fans are in the building. This applies to a lot of teams in awkward markets.

According to the News & Observer (Raleigh), an average of 108,370 in the Raleigh market watched Games 1 and 2 on OLN.

And the during the Buffalo series it was an average of about 50,000. It's hard not to consider Carolina an awkard market when fewer than half of their fans bothered to watch the team in the conference finals.

 

[Sens Rule]

Don't think, if it means getting big-time TV money, that NHL owners won't completely sell out the game of hockey and put the shootout into the playoffs. Networks will demand it, and there's nothing that's gone on business-wise in the NHL the last 15 years that indicate that tradition or what hockey fans care about will be given any kind of consideration when the almighty dollar is at stake.
The better the NHL does in the southern U.S., the more likely the chance of a real national TV offer. And the more likely the chance of some heartbreaking gutting of the sport as we know it.
The Lightning have a footprint now with roller rinks going up along the west coast of Fla. (there's a nice one 90 minutes south of Tampa right near my folks' house), but the Panthers are sucking wind. And insiders have doubt about the future of the NHL in some other southern cities.
If Carolina wins the Cup, it might stabilize the franchise against the wall of empty seats that greeted the Canes during the 2003-04 season.
Good for the individuals involved, but not for the game IMO.

Network televison in the USA is the worst money generating stream for the NHL. There will not be a change to a shoot out in the playoffs for any reason. An NHL team generates as much money as the entire US national TV contract generates per team at the gate for 1 or 2 playoff games.

 

[Anton Babchuk]

And the during the Buffalo series it was an average of about 50,000. It's hard not to consider Carolina an awkard market when fewer than half of their fans bothered to watch the team in the conference finals.

I don't know about the other games, but according to http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060603/1032164.asp, 79,000 in Raleigh watched Game 6 and 101,000 watched Game 7.

 

[Sens Rule]

According to the News & Observer (Raleigh), an average of 108,370 in the Raleigh market watched Games 1 and 2 on OLN.

And the during the Buffalo series it was an average of about 50,000. It's hard not to consider Carolina an awkard market when fewer than half of their fans bothered to watch the team in the conference finals.

The TV market is the 29th largest in the USA it has 985 000 people in it.
29 Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle) 985,200

Therefore 11% of the households in Raleigh watched the game. For the ENTIRE TV season that would have been the Nationally 8th ranked show after:
American Idol Tuesday 17.7
American Idol Wednesday 17.2
CSI 15.3
Grey's Anatomy 12.1
Without a trace 12.1
Dancing with the stars 12
CSI Miami 11.9

Last week the NBA playoffs game 1 of finals did 6.1
Second was Fox baseball on Saturday at 2.9

Last week the nationallly top rated show for the entire week was CSI it got a 9.2.

So in the Raleigh market it is likely that the Stanley Cup finals were the TOP RATED TV SHOW FOR THE PAST WEEK. A rating of 10 or 11 is very strong.

Saying that the fans in Raliegh don't support their team is dead wrong, they are very supportive of their team.

I grant that in Buffalo or any Canadian city the ratings would have been better in the home city. You might have had 20-30+ of the households watching the game. But so what. They have had hockey there forever. Raliegh is a newer market and they are getting great ratings on TV and they sell out their building with 19000 fans a night.

 

[StevenintheATL]

I'll say it.

Provincial hockey snobs are a greater drag on the sport than any newbie southern fan will ever be.

You want to know why hockey is hard to market, it's because of the fart in church reception from real fans to anyone who picked up the sport later than the first trimester or is from the wrong place. And even the transplants from "traditional" "hockey" cities need to make the point about their purity.

Meanwhile college hockey fans were thrilled at the prospect of getting another southern team this year (Kenensaw) because we knew it was helpful to our sport and I've never seen anyone question Alabama-Huntsville's dedication to the sport.

More and more I think the NHL's promotional slogan Hockey is for Everyone has a double meaning.

If Kennesaw State does promote their club program to a full D1 program, you'll probably see some of the other club programs in the area potentially make the leap as well (Georgia Tech and the University of Georgia currently have club teams, as do many of the larger universities in the region).

 

[GSC2k2*]

And the during the Buffalo series it was an average of about 50,000. It's hard not to consider Carolina an awkard market when fewer than half of their fans bothered to watch the team in the conference finals.

Your posting name aptly describes my reaction to reading your posts.

It's freaking June!!!!!!!!

Guess what? In any market only a small percentage of a team's fans watch the game. It may surprise you hockey nerds who think EVERY fan of a team WILL AUTOMATICALLY TUNE IN AND CENTER THEIR ENTIRE EXISTENCE AROUND THE FACT THAT THEIR TEAM IS IN THE FINALS, but people do have things to do. Families to be with. Stuff to attend. Proms to get ready for.

Groan.

{Edit: not to mention that you twisted your facts, as pointed out in the above thread}.

 

[BigE]

So, name the six places that Washington, Chicago, Long Island, St. Louis, Nashville, and New Jersey should move to, in order to reward deserving hockey cities.

And, I'm sorry, are you now restricting people to reply only to very limited aspects of your posts, or are we free to respond freely without asking for your permission first? Perhaps you should be having your conversation with Sotnos by PM if you are concerned about other posters joining in.

Anyways,

It has been debated that an increased talent level can actually make games more defensive and less "thrilling" because of a far stronger defensive core on each team.

Oh, I don't know.

To expand the fanbase, maybe? Winnipeg had grass-roots, but it still couldn't hold onto a team. Who, besides you, is to say that Dallas was "less deserving?" This is a business, and owners and prospective owners do their research and try to make the right decision. You obviously think that the owners were wrong in their choice of markets. I do not.


The people in Florida were not begging for two NHL teams - 3/4 of them hadn't even heard of hockey ("you mean field, right?").

Apparently, neither are the good folks of New York City.

A lot of Canadians don't give a flying **** about hockey, either. A lot of Canadians hate all sports in general.

See, I can make broad generalizations too!


I don't understand this, but of course, as you've mentioned to Sotnos, your arguments are way over our heads anyways.

I don't understand. Are you blaming people from staying away from crappy teams? Are the teams crappy because they're in non-traditional cities? I don't get this comment (not suprising, given my mediocre grasp on any issue that involves thinking). Why aren't you attacking Chicago fans for not showing up when the Hawks are crappy? Or are you saying that people should, like sheep, sell out every game for a pro sports team no matter how bad they are?

Sorry.

And yet, they're all doing better than Chicago, an original six, Washington with Ovechkin, etc etc etc.

Yeah, as long as you aim high, right?

Finally, something we can agree on.

Starting at the top. No, I'm not concerned about you jumping into our line of discussion, but why not finish what you started instead of moving to something else? But hey, my criticism worked and you decided to support yourself, a little.

As far as your six...it's easy to see why you support Gary, your line of thinking is exactly the same: both of you suffer from tunnel vision. Here's a solution to our expansion issue, lets pick the six teams with the worst attendance and get rid of them; which is eerily similar to, lets pick a few cities with expanding populations and a few transplanted Canadians and give them an NHL club. The game should sell itself, right?

Moving on...

Yes, it's been debated, but yet again is that supposed to be a defensive piece of support for your opinion? Any two people with differing views can debate ANYTHING. Christ, not too long ago I once argued for 5 pages(!) with one individual who that Roman Cechmanek was the greatest goaltender ever! I asked you if you were really willing to debate it, and from your response I'm guessing not - which is fair because I wouldn't want to defend the calibre of post-expansion hockey to pre-expansion either.

Downwards...

To expand the fanbase? Why not put a team in ****ing Dubai, UAE for crying out loud? I hear they have two hockey rinks there! God knows there is enough money in that city to make a few more. You'd be expanding the fanbase, right? And hey, soccer, cricket, and horse racing do well there...so why shouldn't hockey?

Generalizations...

Sure, you can make broad generalizations...anyone can...but in making yours what questions does it force me to ask myself? It's a desperate attempt to respond to what I've said, ***-for-tat, you'd be better off responding directly to the generalization that I made with strong facts that refute it.

You realize full well that the thought of a team in Mississippi or Lousiana is outright foolish, and by the same token so is a team in Florida.

Rednecks...

Again, as I've tried to explain. It's a subliminal shot to the Carolina fans that have proclaimed the hockey played in their town "Redneck hockey."

Everyone is making such a huge deal out of a god damn tailgate party outside of the rink every game. This is supposed to mean that Carolina supports their team? No. I could make a better argument for the tailgate party occuring due to lost and confused football fans just looking for a place to pull out the cue and get ripped.

Loving winners...

Chicago has a storied history in this league as an original six member of this league, but hey attendance was down this year, and Carolina just found out they had a team when it made the Finals - so lets boot Chicago.

You're really willing to throw out the history and support that the Blackhawks have in Chicago for a team like Carolina that's received NO support up until ONE MONTH AGO?


Success of expansion teams...

Keep telling yourself that they're REALLY doing better and maybe it'll come true. Afterall, attendance is down and that is all that matters right?

Aiming high...

Aim wherever the hell you want. If all it takes to be successful in this world is a big population I'd seriously advise that you aim East - hope for Hong Kong or Beijing or a population center of mega proportions.

As I said, and you so clearly imply...the game should sell itself.

 

[In The Flesh]

Yea, I don't know what happened with Chicago, an original 6 team, a hockey town, but the team is horrible, and people don't even care. It's said when the Chicago Wolves get more people coming to the games than the Hawks do. And personally hockey in the south is good, there are a lot of people down there, who could get into hockey.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

As I said, and you so clearly imply...the game should sell itself.

Yeah, cause you know the game is totally going to sell itself on its own merits to somebody who's never seen it before.

 

[BigE]

A lot of people chalk it up to Wirtz. Others might suggest that the NHL has neglected it some.

One thing that is pretty tough to argue though, is the NHL's choice to expand rather than strengthen. It's not really a complex idea to grasp, but think of an army...if you spread your men and resources too thin you're bound to have weaker lines all throughout. Hindsight is 20/20 and everyone was eager to push the markets, but it would have been better for this league to strengthen its existing markets first before pushing into new, unknown and unfamiliar territory.

 

[Weary]

I don't know about the other games, but according to http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060603/1032164.asp, 79,000 in Raleigh watched Game 6 and 101,000 watched Game 7.

Here's the News-Observer's statistics for the first three games:
Buffalo fans are tuned in

 

[Jazz]

You know...it pains me to see a Stanley Cup hoisted in places like Carolina and Tampa Bay. You can't even find a public rink down there. What percentage of the fans in the south can even skate? I know I'm going off on a tangent...but I'd be so much more comfortable with a cup going to Hartford than one going to Carolina. I don't care if another cup is ever won in the states of Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, Texas, or Arizona. Cities like Winnipeg, Quebec City, and Hartford have rabid hockey fans. They're all cities without other top professional sports teams in them. The fact that hockey has to compete in the south with a sport where people make left hand turns for 500 miles before ending right where they started...is disgusting. And forget about competing with college football/basketball in the south. Kansas City, Milwaukee/Green Bay, Seattle, Portland, Hartford, Winnipeg, Quebec City...should all have teams before the likes of these other sites. It's hard enough for hockey to ever grab a foothold of different markets when you consider how few of the potential fans ever played the sport as a kid...or were even a fan of it as a kid for that matter. You have to put teams in markets where kids have a chance to play it. I live in the north and the rinks in the Philadelphia area are few and far in between. I can't imagine what youth hockey is like in south Florida. Not only has the NHL expanded into a lot of questionable markets (simply because they're large TV markets), but they've left behind cities with great heritage and history.

The Minnesota North Stars leaving for Dallas...was probably the worst relocation imaginable. I miss all the old jerseys. Most of the new teams have the most hideous colors, logos, and nicknames ever seen on a professional sports team.

*sigh*

Wow....

when you get out of your time capsule, let the rest of us know....

btw, Minnesota changed their jersey the year BEFORE they moved to Dallas.

And check the explosion of minor and youth hockey in Texas since Dallas got a team.