Hockey Invented In England ... Not Canada

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Great Stuff

Great stuff JA. Excellent research.

Rather busy so could not participate initially.

The Albert Edward, Prince of Wales illustration is rather interesting assuming the it is an accurate depiction. If it is the skates are basic runners with little suitability for actual ice hockey play. Gliding on ice hitting a projectile with a stick while surrounded by skaters and spectators is just that, not ice hockey.

The illustration of the four sticks is fascinating, given that it dates from 1862. Figure 2 is a very early example of a non curved or non hooked stick. Flat bottom. Also the text accompanying the illustration shows an early appreciation of the "lie" of what has been considered a standard hockey stick. The "lie" of the stick and how it contributes to or advantages stickhandling is a rather sophisticated notion that deserves more study. Such notions though were suggested in Montréal 25 years earlier.
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Excellent

Here is old one from my bookmarks. D.A.L MacDonalds column about this same subject from 65 years ago. Some Finnish writer has made similar claim. I actually don´t know who that was.

The Manitoba Ensign - Jun 10, 1950

Excellent contribution.

Post the decision to initially award the HHOF to Kingston, the discussion took on a European flavour.

Article incorporâtes this, the disenchantment in some circles with the Kingston choice and harkens back to 1875 referring to Henry Joseph.
 

LEAFANFORLIFE23

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Jun 17, 2010
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See the problem here is your source is the Toronto Sun, I lived in Toronto for 7 years the Sun should NEVER be used as a source for anything....ever that's common knowledge
 

JA

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Excellent contribution.

Post the decision to initially award the HHOF to Kingston, the discussion took on a European flavour.

Article incorporâtes this, the disenchantment in some circles with the Kingston choice and harkens back to 1875 referring to Henry Joseph.

Well, the article that Sanf posted states that the Finnish expert believed that "bandy" was the first term used to describe the game, but I think "bandy" was actually the last term to be used to describe the game in England.

As closely studied on the previous page, "hockey" was popular across England in the 19th century, and few sources referred to it as "bandy," although the term was acknowledged as a sort of alternative term in reference to the game of hockey. The Tebbutts formalized the usage of the term by creating the Bandy Association, and it soon became a more popular term for the game than hockey.

The game of ice hockey developed both in England and in Canada at the same time once the game was brought to Canada from Britain; it seems the frequency of correspondence between the motherland the colony meant that when rules developed in one of the two places they were sure to be adopted across the Atlantic as well. That's why the game of ice hockey both in England and in Canada appear to have been developing at the same rate with the same rule changes between 1874 and 1891 once the Hockey Association's field hockey rules are introduced. After the field hockey rules were introduced, both countries started to play that style of game on the ice. By the early 1880s, we have people playing games with seven players per side because there was, undoubtedly, communication between players across the Atlantic.

We can examine why the game was called "shinty on ice" so commonly in Canada if the English, who played hockey on ice, brought the skating game over.

There was, of course, correspondence between settlers in Canada and their families back in Britain throughout the early days of the colony in the 1700s and 1800s. In addition to this, movement between Britain and Canada resulted in the frequent transmission of culture and ideas. The idea of playing hockey on the ice comes from Britain -- more specifically, England, unless there is a source in existence showing that the Scots played the game on ice before the English and brought it to Canada instead of the English.

Here is an important article to take into account:
HOCKEY.
The Graphic (London, England), Saturday, January 30, 1886; Issue 844.

HOCKEY

AMONG the revivals of old athletic pastimes which the present generation has witnessed is hockey. It was probably one of the many forms of games with a ball introduced into this country by the Romans, and may be called a first cousin to the Scottish shinty, or shinney, so called probably from the blows on the shin the playrs are not unlikely to receive from time to time. Shinty is still a favourite game in the Highlands and islands of Scotland, and is, generally speaking, a very rough-and-ready kind of business. In some districts, however, the game has been reduced to rules, and under these is played in some parts of the North of England. Further South it has recently become a much more refined and scientific game, and may fairly be called hockey. Jamieson, an older writer, describing shinty, calls it "an inferior kind of golf, generally played at by young people, and in London called hockey." The comparison of the game with golf does not hold good in any particular, but that shinty and hockey are practically the same game is true enough.

Hockey on the ice has always been a favourite amusement in England...
The terms "hockey" and "shinty" appear to have been very interchangeable, and it probably would have been even more so when referring to the on-ice version. "Shinny" is also another name that seems to have the same meaning.
College Sports.
The Cheltenham Chronicle and Parish Register and General Advertiser for Gloucester (Cheltenham, England), Tuesday, October 12, 1858; pg. 5; Issue 2534.

College Sports.

The College Cricket playing has ceased for the season, and the spacious playground is now daily the scene of animated games of foot-ball, hockey, hurley, or shinny as it is indifferently called.

...

There is evidence that the Scots brought "shinty" over to Canada early on. There were shinty clubs in Toronto, and Scots were welcome to join these clubs. One would think that in Nova Scotia there would be many Scots who liked to play shinty as well.
Classified Ad 2 -- No Title
The Globe (1844-1936) [Toronto, Ont] 09 Dec 1848: 3

NOTICE.

A GENERAL MEETING of the TORONTO SHINTY CLUB will be held at the Rob Roy Hotel, on Wednesday, the 13th instant, at half-past Seven o'click, P. M., to elect Office-bearers for the ensuing year.

By order,
ROBERT MARTIN,
Secretary.

N.B.--Scotchmen are invited to attend.
Toronto, Dec. 8, 1848
CITY NEWS
The Globe (1844-1936) [Toronto, Ont] 12 Oct 1863: 2.

SUNDAY NUISANCE. - A number of youths, aged from thirteen to sixteen, were enjoying themselves playing "shinty" yesterday on CLare street. His Worship the Mayor saw their proceedings, and instructed Constable Bradshaw to arrest them. He succeeded in taking a boy named Richard Kelly, and whilst conveying him to the station, and alderman discharged him. Justice should not be frustrated in this way. If the law is broken, the offenders should certainly be punished, as a warning to others.
In 1869 is a Toronto report of a boy almost drowning while playing shinty on the ice with other kids.
CITY NEWS
The Globe (1844-1936) [Toronto, Ont] 11 Feb 1869: 1.

ALMOST DROWNED.-- Yesterday afternoon, while a number of lads were enjoying themselves at that very ancient and honourable game of "shinty" on the ice at the foot of Scott street, the ball which they were propelling got into an air-hole, and one of the "shintyers," named Angus McLellan, while endeavouring to recover it, fell in, and was with some difficulty fished out by his companions. Will boys not take warning by these ever-repeated escapes?
Here is an instance of the sticks used to be play the game in Toronto being referred to as "shinty sticks."

Here we have a crowd of shinty players on the ice harassing other skaters on the Don River.
COMMUNICATIONS
The Globe (1844-1936) [Toronto, Ont] 27 Dec 1862: 2.

ROWDYISM ON THE DON.

(To the Editor of the Globe.)

SIR,-- Allow me, through the medium of your journal, to call the attention of the authorities to the fact that there is a gang of young rowdies from near the Rolling Mill, who make it as a practice upon holidays and leisure times to go upon the Don, and annoy any persons, who, by their respectable appearance, &c., may excite their malice, by tripping them up, scoffing and jeering, and upon remonstrance being made, will fall upon the party and beat him unmercifully with shinty sticks. There have been several persons most shamefully maltreated in this way. On Christmas Day a young man, who went to separate his brother and one of hose rowdies who was annoying him, was knocked down, kicked and beaten until he was senseless. When the ice is good there is always a crowd upon the Don, and I think the City Fathers ought to place one or two policemen there to prevent a recurrence of such ruffianism.

Very respectfully,
PEACE.

Toronto, Dec. 27, 1862.
Shinty was an established game in Canada by the 1840s. This certainly plays a role in the Canadians' identification of "hockey on ice" as "shinty on ice" up until the 1870s. There are numerous instances of "shinty on ice" being played in Toronto, and certainly other places. James Creighton, hailing from Nova Scotia, should have naturally called the game shinty on ice.

With shinty being such a popular version of the land-based game in Canada prior to the 1870s, why is it not that the ice version of the game was called ice shinty instead of ice hockey?

"Hockey" was not an obscure name for the game, although it seems "shinty" was the preferred term. The English name for the game -- hockey -- was known to those in Canada also. In fact, they seem to have regularly published articles from the London magazines in The Globe and other Canadian newspapers. Here's a London article, republished in The Globe, referring to hockey on the ice. With so much English influence on Canadian culture and so many transplanted residents from England, hockey was a term they recognized. It would not have been a stretch for them to use "hockey" as a term in place of "shinty," and in fact the two meant the same thing in reference to the on-ice game.
ON THE ICE
The Globe (1844-1936) [Toronto, Ont] 26 Dec 1863: 1.

(From the London Society.)

An Englishman takes naturally to water.

...

The various games that are played on the ice are mostly unworthy of a true skaters' attention, and have the further drawback of seriously annoying those who use the skate for its legitimate purpose.

Hockey, for example, ought to be sternly forbidden, as it is not only annoying, but dangerous. In its right place, Hockey is a noble game, and deserving of every encouragement, but on the ice it is in its wrong place, and should be prohibited. Any weak place on the ice is sure to give way if the ball should happen to pass over or near it ; for the concourse of fifty or a hundred persons all converging on the same point is a test which no ice, save the very strongest, is able to bear. Even the "express trains," so popular on the Serpentine, on a fine frosty night, are not nearly so dangerous as hockey, because they distribute the weight over a large surface with tolerable equality.

Moreover, when a mass of human beings precipitates itself recklessly in any direction where a ball may happen to run, accidents are certain to follow the indifferent skaters, or those who are only walking on the ice, are knocked down, and often severely injured by others falling on them ; and if the ice should gave way, as is likely to happen by reason of their accumulated weight, a fatal result is almost a necessary consequence.

...

The game, moreover, is by no means what it ought to be , inasmuch as it is impossible to enforce the rules in such a miscellaneous assembly. No one keeps to any particular side, or aims at any particular goal ; and any one who happens to have a stick, hits the ball in any direction that seems easiest. I should be truly glad to see the police interfere whenever hockey is commenced.

Cricket, again, the king of British games, is simply degraded by being transferred from summer and fields to winter and ice. I have seen several cricket games played on the ice, and must acknowledge that the game was the veriest farce imaginable. The bowler seems to be the only player who has any chance of doing his duty.

...
We can see that the Toronto Shinty Club still operated in the 1890s. These articles are from The Scottish Canadian, a Canadian magazine catered to Scottish canadians. The articles below are courtesy of OurOntario.ca.

http://images.ourontario.ca/Partners/MHSO/MHSO002743977pf_0797.pdf

http://images.ourontario.ca/Partners/MHSO/MHSO002743977pf_0702.pdf

The first article is dated in the week of October 6, 1891 because of the mention of the Right Honourable William Henry Smith's death that week. He died on October 6, 1891.

Emigrants from England would have called the on-ice game hockey. Those from Scotland would have called it shinty. Perhaps the high number of Scottish immigrants in Nova Scotia meant that the more popular term for hockey in the province was "shinty." That explains why James Creighton grew up playing "shinty" on the ice. To be honest, I think he would have known both terms: "hockey" and "shinty." Considering he was copying the Hockey Association's rules, it's natural that he would call the game hockey thereafter.

https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/hockey/kids/024003-2000-e.html

From an archived Canadian government web page:
The first recorded uses of the word "hockey" in what we know today as Canada, are credited to members of the British Armed Forces in their travels abroad. Arctic explorer Sir John Franklin noted that his crew members, who included Royal Navy men, exercised by playing hockey on the ice at Fort Franklin, Northwest Territories, in 1825. Eighteen years later, in 1843, a British army officer recorded in his diary that he had learned to skate and play hockey on the ice at Kingston, Upper Canada.
According to previous research, the first usage of the term "hockey" in reference to the on-ice adaptation was in 1822. 1797, meanwhile, is when the earliest known game of hockey on ice was played; it took place in England. At some point hockey on ice would be brought to Canada from England, or maybe the Scots brought it to Canada (although we would have to ask ourselves if the on-ice game was anywhere near as popular in Scotland as it was in England).

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1731417&highlight=

Considering the great number of British and Scottish emigrants to Canada, both "hockey" and "shinty" would have been known terms throughout the Dominion. That said, it seems "shinty" was the more popular term. "Shinny" was a term developed in Britain as an alternative to "shinty," so "shinty" and "shinny" seem to have been the same game too, just different names. "Shinny" is not a Canadian name for the game by any means.
SOCIETY OF TRUE HIGHLANDERS.
The Morning Post (London, England), Saturday, June 18, 1842; pg. 6; Issue 22283.

SOCIETY OF TRUE HIGHLANDERS.

The annual gathering of the members of this truly benelent association took place on Thursday, at the enclosure of Copenhagen House, for the purpose of playing their national and ancient game of shinty or shinny. There was a numerous attendance of Highlanders, including several Lairds attired in full costume ; also the children of the Scottish School in their kilts, which rendered the scene exceedingly interesting. Macbeth, the piper of the Duke of Sutherland, the patron of the society, by permission of his Grace, was present, and played during the day several national airs. He wore a magnificent dress, and displayed the beautiful powder-horn, richly mounted in silver, presented to him by her Majesty for playing at the late Bal Costumé, at Buckingham Palace. After a very well contested game, the company celebrated their anniversary festival by dining together in the large room of the above tavern.

...
There is recorded evidence of "shinty" on the ice being played in Britain as well.
SAD ACCIDENT ON THE ICE NEAR WARRINGTON.
The Blackburn Standard (Blackburn, England), Wednesday, January 08, 1868; Issue 1717.

SAD ACCIDENT ON THE ICE NEAR WARRINGTON.

FOUR BOYS DROWNED.

On Sunday afternoon, between three and four o'clock, four boys, named Thomas Smith, of Scotland-road ; Patrick Burns and Frain, of Black's Yard, Bridge-street ; and Thomas Griffin, of Old-road, Latchford, were playing at "shinty" on the ice which covers a claypit on the Lancashire side of the Mersey, excavated by the London and North-western Railway Company in the formation of their line to Walton, when a dispute arose respecting the cork. There were all standing together, when the ice broke and one of the boys fell in. The other three attempted to rescue him, but they were precipitated into the water and all four were drowned. The ice where the sad occurrence took place was not more than 1 inch thick, and the depth of the water did not exceed 5 feet where they fell in. An alarm was given, but an hour elapsed before any of the bodies could be recovered. The ages of the deceased varied from ten to thirteen.
Interchangeable names for the same on-ice game? It appears so.

There is also recorded evidence of Torontonians knowing what hockey was. Both terms existed in the mindsets of Canadians.
Current Affairs In Britain: LONDON OFFICE OF THE GLOBE THURSDAY, Feb. 24, 1876, 8:15 p. m. THE SUEZ CANAL THE PATENT LAWS EMIGRATION LACROSSE IN ENGLAND THE COLLISION OFF DOVER MINOR TOPICS MONEY MARKET
The Globe (1844-1936) [Toronto, Ont] 10 Mar 1876: 2.

...

LACROSSE IN ENGLAND.

Sportsmen of all sorts and conditions in this country hail with delight the prospect of the coming lacrosse matches, especially University and Public Schools, and Civil Services men, who will be glad to take up and "acclimatize" the interesting and manly national game of Canada, when they have had due opportunities of seeing it played on their natale solum. . . . The only English game at all like Lacrosse is the antiquated hockey, which really is not much of a game.
Of course, this author is a little uninformed, as the Hockey Association had established rules prior to this article's publication.

The game would have been called either shinty or hockey depending on who was observing the game. I think the English decided to play the sport on the ice before the Scots ever did, and so it might have been brought over as hockey on ice -- then the Scottish population might have labeled it "shinty on ice." Either way, it would have been the same game on the ice, especially with the vagueness of rules/lack of rules at the time. One would not have been able to distinguish a difference nor does it really matter whether the Scots or the English brought the on-ice game to Canada. There would have been people calling it "hockey on ice" and "shinty on ice" regardless, since so many English and Scottish settlers lived in Canada. We seem to have pinpointed the origin of the name "shinty on ice" and "shinny on ice," though, if, indeed, the English brought the game to Canada.

I think "shinty on ice" and "hockey on ice" are the same thing. It's quite difficult for me to believe that "hockey" was not also a term used in Creighton's childhood. The British brought over hockey on ice, while the Scots popularized land-based shinty in Canada such that there were clubs by the mid-nineteenth century and "shinty" was a common name used to refer to the game by that point. This may explain why Canadians identified "hockey on ice" as "shinty on ice" or "shinny on ice" for such a lengthy period of time in the game's early Canadian history. With no formal name for the game and the presence of shinty already in Canada, I'm sure it was referred to in colloquial discussion as "shinty" even though those of English origin would have identified the on-ice game as hockey. Especially with the constant interactions with British culture, British people and the high number of British people residing in Canada, the relationship between hockey and shinty was known. I think this made the switch more natural when Creighton and others started to refer to the game as hockey in Canada in the 1870s.

The borrowing of the Hockey Association's rules for "shinty on ice" in Canada is when I think Canadians switched over to the use of "hockey" as the primary term for the on-ice game.

There are numerous instances of "shinny" being mentioned in Ohio in the 1850s and 1860s, although both refer to young kids playing the game informally with a block of wood in one instance and a ball in another. Apparently some Americans called organized hockey "shinny" even in the late 1880s.
Ice Shinny.
The Daily Inter Ocean (Chicago, Illinois), Thursday, February 21, 1889; pg. 2; Issue 334.

ICE SHINNY.

A well contested game of shinny took place on the ice yesterday morning between the North Chicago Shinny Club and the Hyde Park Shinny Club. The ice was in capital condition, and the game fast from start to finish. For the first half of the game the Hyde Park men appeared to have it all their own way, though they did not succeed in scoring until just before half time, when Simpson managed to hit a goal for them. The second half of the time the North Chicago men had the best of it, two goals being obtained, one by Laird and the other by Moon. A return match will be played on Washington's Birthday at South Park. The players were For Hyde Park-- C. Hamilton (captain), Southgate, Loomis, Wilson, Pratt, Hayward, Smith, Young, Rush, Simpson, and Moore. North Chicago-- Laird (captain), Pearson, Harper, Rowley, Henley, Graves, Williams, Moon, Sergeant, Scale, and McDonald.
They're definitely playing ice hockey, but they seem to recognize the game as "ice shinny."

The reason "shinty"/"shinny" was such a popular term in Canada for the game prior to the mid-1870s was in all likelihood because of the high number of Scottish settlers and the presence of land-based shinty in Canada, so even though the game might have been brought over by the English as "hockey on ice" it became known as "shinty on ice." This accounts for the different name in spite of the English origin of the on-ice game.

By the way, here's an interesting review from 1923 of Hockey by S. H. Shoveller. This review offers a few notes about the history of field hockey and shinty.
Review 2 -- No Title
The Globe (1844-1936) [Toronto, Ont] 13 Jan 1923: 20.

"HOCKEY." By S. H. Shoveller. (London: George Allen and Unwin, Ltd.) Price, 6s net.

No better historian for the game of hockey could have been found than S. H. Shoveller, one of the most famous players of the English game that the sport can boast. In every international match since 1902 Mr. Shoveller has worn the ENglish colors and done yeoman's work for his team. The English game is the direct ancestor of the thrilling ice sport that Canadians boast, and itself has an origin dating backward into remote antiquity. Ireland has her game of hurley, which was mentioned in A.D. 148, while Scotland has her game of shinty, which was mentioned in chronicles of the reign of Alexander I., and this latter is the more authentic ancestor of the English sport. An eighteenth century Scottish iconographer, writing of the game of shinty, calls it "an inferior species of game generally played at by young people. In London the game is called hackie." Hockey was popular in England in the fourteenth century, as ancient illumination shows, while later John Bunyan denounced the game as a sin. By 1876 the sport had its recognized association and rules, and now it is probably the most popular team game in England and many British possessions while it can boast that not the slightest taint of professionalism has ever marred the annals of hockey.
Works Cited

"CITY NEWS." The Globe (1844-1936): 2. Oct 12 1863. ProQuest. Web. 18 July 2015 .

"CITY NEWS." The Globe (1844-1936): 1. Feb 11 1869. ProQuest. Web. 18 July 2015 .

"Classified Ad 2 -- no Title." The Globe (1844-1936): 3. Dec 09 1848. ProQuest. Web. 18 July 2015 .

"College Sports." Cheltenham Chronicle and Parish Register and General Advertiser for Gloucester [Cheltenham, England] 12 Oct. 1858: 5. 19th Century British Newspapers. Web. 19 July 2015.

"COMMUNICATIONS." The Globe (1844-1936): 2. Dec 27 1862. ProQuest. Web. 18 July 2015 .

"Current Affairs in Britain." The Globe (1844-1936): 2. Mar 10 1876. ProQuest. Web. 18 July 2015 .

"HOCKEY." Graphic [London, England] 30 Jan. 1886: n.p. 19th Century British Newspapers. Web. 17 July 2015.

"Ice Shinny." Daily Inter Ocean [Chicago, Illinois] 21 Feb. 1889: 2. Nineteenth Century U.S. Newspapers. Web. 19 July 2015.

"ON THE ICE." The Globe (1844-1936): 1. Dec 26 1863. ProQuest. Web. 18 July 2015 .

"Review 2 -- no Title." The Globe (1844-1936): 20. Jan 13 1923. ProQuest. Web. 21 July 2015 .

"SAD ACCIDENT ON THE ICE NEAR WARRINGTON." Blackburn Standard [Blackburn, England] 8 Jan. 1868: n.p. 19th Century British Newspapers. Web. 18 July 2015.

"SOCIETY OF TRUE HIGHLANDERS." Morning Post [London, England] 18 June 1842: 6. 19th Century British Newspapers. Web. 19 July 2015.
 
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Canadiens1958

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True but.....

^^^^ No one is disputing the above but the key elements in the development of ice hockey were all Canadiens. Specifically, the first patented ice hockey skates in 1866 by the Starr Company.

http://www.birthplaceofhockey.com/origin/starr-hockey/

The flat bottom stick that facilitated playing with the puck on ice, various claims between 1837 and 1862.

Moving the games indoors 1875 at the latest.

Adapting goals from lacrosse.
 

Robert Gordon Orr

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Dec 3, 2009
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JetsAlternate: Finally someone who are using the existing facts.
I came to the same conclusion years ago just by going through the exact sources as you are going through now. I am glad that you are honest enough to base your conclusions on facts and not a lot of biased and artificially constructed views. Thank you for that. :handclap:

^^^^ No one is disputing the above but the key elements in the development of ice hockey were all Canadiens. Specifically, the first patented ice hockey skates in 1866 by the Starr Company.

http://www.birthplaceofhockey.com/origin/starr-hockey/

The flat bottom stick that facilitated playing with the puck on ice, various claims between 1837 and 1862.

Moving the games indoors 1875 at the latest.

Adapting goals from lacrosse.

Oh, here we go again. First of all, no one is disputing the fact that Canadians were integral into developing the sport into what it is today, but saying that the key elements in the development of ice hockey were all Canadiens, is simply not true, and you know it.

Maybe I should remind you of the following when it comes to ice hockey:

First use of a bung/puck (England), First use of referees (England), First use of goaltenders (England), First use of captains (England), First organized game (England), First stick manufacturer (England), First written rules (England), First specific skate made for the sport (England), First rules drawn up by a National Association (England)

Canadians on the other hand took the game indoors, they used the first goalie mask, formed the first league and held the first tournament to name a few of the earlier things.

Both Canada and England contributed to the evolution of the game, but to say that Canada developed all the key elements, is just incorrect.

Oh, and for your information. Starr did not patent ice hockey skates in 1866. The first specific ice hockey skates manufactured were the
"Standard Hockey Skates" manufactured in Sheffield (England) by Colquhoun & Cadman and the Marsden Brothers (in 1881 at the latest).
Show me an earlier contemporary source from Canada and I think we'll all gladly embrace it as a fact.

Canadiens1958: I highly recommend you to really dig deep into the research world outside of Canada just like JetsAlternate have done. (mod)
 
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Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Firsts

JetsAlternate: Finally someone who are using the existing facts.
I came to the same conclusion years ago just by going through the exact sources as you are going through now. I am glad that you are honest enough to base your conclusions on facts and not a lot of biased and artificially constructed views. Thank you for that. :handclap:



Oh, here we go again. First of all, no one is disputing the fact that Canadians were integral into developing the sport into what it is today, but saying that the key elements in the development of ice hockey were all Canadiens, is simply not true, and you know it.

Maybe I should remind you of the following when it comes to ice hockey:

First use of a bung/puck (England), First use of referees (England), First use of goaltenders (England), First use of captains (England), First organized game (England), First stick manufacturer (England), First written rules (England), First specific skate made for the sport (England), First rules drawn up by a National Association (England)

Canadians on the other hand took the game indoors, they used the first goalie mask, formed the first league and held the first tournament to name a few of the earlier things.

Both Canada and England contributed to the evolution of the game, but to say that Canada developed all the key elements, is just incorrect.

Oh, and for your information. Starr did not patent ice hockey skates in 1866. The first specific ice hockey skates manufactured were the
"Standard Hockey Skates" manufactured in Sheffield (England) by Colquhoun & Cadman and the Marsden Brothers (in 1881 at the latest).
Show me an earlier contemporary source from Canada and I think we'll all gladly embrace it as a fact.

Canadiens1958: I highly recommend you to really dig deep into the research world outside of Canada just like JetsAlternate have done. (mod)

First does not mean appropriate to the game of ice hockey. Nor is it a counting exercise. First counting is like cup or goal counting. An attempt to replace appropriateness with compilation.

The link to the 1866 Starr / Forbes patented hockey skate has been posted numerous times. The uniqueness of the skate is rather evident in the top two illustrations. The turning mechanism at the ball of the foot and the height of the blade. Both made the turning, lateral movement required for skating easier and the nimble foot movement required to play goalie much easier. Also incresed the speed of the game, making it attractive to spectators.
 

Sanf

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Sep 8, 2012
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Yeah the name for the same game seem to differ in areas and countrys. I have seen some in US papers

Eau Claire Free Press Weekly
February 12, 1874

The game called by the English "hockey" but in this country "shinney" has declined of late. The limited space off which the recent snow was scraped, afford no such field for exericises of this kind as the broad surface of the river did a few weeks earlier.

The Titusville Herald
December 2, 1871

With winter arrives the season for what is called "hockey" here and "shinney" in New England. This game usually played by skaters consist in driving a wooden ball with a stick, ? end of which is crooked...

And about the skates. The patent was for the "self fastening system" right? What was the model name for this so called hockey skate? Last year I tried to look bit of info from the Nova Scotia papers, but there were several skates sold with this Forbes patent (like in here)
 

Robert Gordon Orr

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Dec 3, 2009
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First does not mean appropriate to the game of ice hockey. Nor is it a counting exercise. First counting is like cup or goal counting. An attempt to replace appropriateness with compilation.

I think anyone who have followed this entire thread can see what you obviously try to ignore. [MOD]

The link to the 1866 Starr / Forbes patented hockey skate has been posted numerous times. The uniqueness of the skate is rather evident in the top two illustrations. The turning mechanism at the ball of the foot and the height of the blade. Both made the turning, lateral movement required for skating easier and the nimble foot movement required to play goalie much easier. Also incresed the speed of the game, making it attractive to spectators.

That link is absolutely worthless. Where are the contemporary sources saying that it was a hockey skate in 1866 ?
In the original patent there is no mention of hockey at all.
I am sure the skate was good for playing hockey, but it wasn't specifically designed with that sport in mind. I hope you understand the difference.

The "Standard Hockey Skates" that I mentioned are the first known (at this point) specifically designed skates for hockey.
Until we see a contemporary source saying that the Starr/Forbes skates were specifically designed for hockey then I'm sticking to what we've found so far.
 
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Canadiens1958

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Patent

I think anyone who have followed this entire thread can see what you obviously try to ignore. [MOD]





That link is absolutely worthless. Where are the contemporary sources saying that it was a hockey skate in 1866 ?
In the original patent there is no mention of hockey at all.
I am sure the skate was good for playing hockey, but it wasn't specifically designed with that sport in mind. I hope you understand the difference.

The "Standard Hockey Skates" that I mentioned are the first known (at this point) specifically designed skates for hockey.
Until we see a contemporary source saying that the Starr/Forbes skates were specifically designed for hockey then I'm sticking to what we've found so far.

Patent applications are not narrow in scope but broad. Calling the 1866 skate an ice hockey specific skate would have defeated the purpose of a patent since any lawyer or manufacturer would have simply circumvented the patent by calling the new innovation a "non ice hockey" skate. The new features were also beneficial to all other ice skating activities but they served ice hockey the most.

You do not need contemporary sources just a basic understanding of ice skating to appreciate importance of the 1866 Starr / Forbes skate to the growth of Ice Hockey.
 
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Robert Gordon Orr

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Patent applications are not narrow in scope but broad. Calling the 1866 skate an ice hockey specific skate would have defeated the purpose of a patent since any lawyer or manufacturer would have simply circumvented the patent by calling the new innovation a "non ice hockey" skate. The new features were also beneficial to all other ice skating activities but they served ice hockey the most.

You do not need contemporary sources just a basic understanding of ice skating to appreciate importance of the 1866 Starr / Forbes skate to the growth of Ice Hockey.

[MOD] The fact remains. Of what we know so far, the first skates made specifically for hockey were made in England. That is a fact as of now. The matter can be discussed further when we find new evidence contradicting it.

And all the firsts in England were of course not important in the evolution of hockey... [MOD]
But as I said, as long as you believe in that, then good for you.
However it is tough trying to convince people that you are right when the facts aren't on your side. ;)
 
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Theokritos

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You do not need contemporary sources just a basic understanding of ice skating to appreciate importance of the 1866 Starr / Forbes skate to the growth of Ice Hockey.

We're talking about two different things here though. The importance of the skates to the growth of Ice Hockey, that's one thing. As pointed out, no one here is disputing that it was in Canada the game developed into what we know as "ice hockey" today. No question. The other thing is: were the skates developed and designed with ice hockey in mind? That question can not simply be answered with a "yes" without contemporary sources.
 

Robert Gordon Orr

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We're talking about two different things here though. The importance of the skates to the growth of Ice Hockey, that's one thing. As pointed out, no one here is disputing that it was in Canada the game developed into what we know as "ice hockey" today. No question. The other thing is: were the skates developed and designed with ice hockey in mind? That question can not simply be answered with a "yes" without contemporary sources.

Of course we are talking about two different things here.
 
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Ohashi_Jouzu*

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Re: Shinny vs Hockey, and why

Just wanted to follow up on JA's post just a few spots earlier (didn't want to go through the leg work of selectively editing all that text and possibly messing it up) where the "rough-and-ready" game was known as shinny to the Scots, and the more "refined" or "codified" game which "has been reduced to rules, and under these is played in some parts of the North of England..." which "could properly be called hockey. It certainly doesn't surprise me that stick/ball games adopted from the Romans would have evolved at the northern, coldest extents of the empire's expansion ("Scotland"), and trickled back down in their winter version from there (i.e. into "England").

This isn't surprising to someone of Scottish decent from Nova Scotia. In "my day" - back in the early '80s - we were enrolled in minor hockey, but knocked on each others' doors to gather people to play what we habitually called shinny out on the pond. We talked about this much earlier in the thread, but that passage in JA's post kind of solidified to me that shinny is the earlier precursor to "ice hockey". It seems to me that the evidence he (she?) provides suggests that the rough and tumble Scottish shinny (on ice) became known to those in Northern England, and that they attempted to modify it a bit to suit their tastes and societal norms - becoming known as hockey, to distinguish their 'grand contribution' in taming the wild Scottish game and making it their own/"better".

The parallels still exist (or existed at least until "my day"), where shinny (known in the "motherland", in a previous era, as shinty?) basically incorporates all the aspects of hockey that you'd recognize, minus all the rules designed for more formal competition and adherence to different sets of social etiquette and "fair play". It's not surprising to me that the Scottish informal version is what proliferated on the lakes and rivers over here, while the more codified version is what you'd sign up for in organized clubs, leagues, etc if you wanted to play indoors in the (initially somewhat few) rinks. So many Scots out here in "New Scotland", but it's the English who "ruled" the area, and likely occupied top positions in organizations/leagues/clubs/etc.

In order to sign up for these clubs, I would imagine that it was expected to drop certain aspects that would have been traditional/natural for the outdoor shinny player, and adhere to the more numerous rules and constructs in order to participate in "ice hockey" with the English-run leagues/clubs/etc. Given the underlying similarities in skills/techniques/strategies, it should have been a natural "transition". Of course, we have adopted the nomenclature of the "ruling class" over time to describe the organized game, but still to this day haven't forgotten the term used by the "peasantry" that made up a lot of the talent base for the (potentially) earlier, less formal version of the game.

Now, the use of the skate seems to be crucial in identifying "hockey", but I'm willing to bet the earliest version of "shinny"/shinty didn't involve use of skates (or, at least, not something that would meet any of the stricter senses of the word or definitions we've seen explored in this thread). Maybe they had something reminiscent of the bone runners of the Indians, I don't know. Once "modern" skates were invented/available, though, I can imagine shinty players jumped at the chance to use them to play the game. Doesn't invalidate shinny's possibly position as the immediate precursor to what we now consider "ice hockey" though, as far as I'm concerned. Just turns out that we may have the "tamed"/"codified" English version, complete with use of the modern skate as an intermediary depending on which definition(s) you adhere to.
 
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steve141

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We talked about this much earlier in the thread, but that passage in JA's post kind of solidified to me that shinny is the earlier precursor to "ice hockey". It seems to me that the evidence he (she?) provides suggests that the rough and tumble Scottish shinny (on ice) became known to those in Northern England, and that they attempted to modify it a bit to suit their tastes and societal norms - becoming known as hockey, to distinguish their 'grand contribution' in taming the wild Scottish game and making it their own/"better".

I might be wrong, but I interpret it differently:

1. The earliest form of the game was certainly the stick-and-ball games played off-ice (field hockey) perhaps since Roman times. Hockey (off ice) would have been known in England long before shinty-on-ice.

2. The frequent use of the term "hockey on the ice" seems to me to indicate that the writers were used to calling the the field hockey variant "hockey" and wanted to distinguing the ice-game from that, rather than distinguishing it from shinty.

3. I don't know that the Scottish shinty was more "wild" than the English "hockey on the ice". Contemporary writers often describe hockey-on-the ice as violent and disturbing. The most likely scenario for me is that shinty and hockey-on-the-ice were pretty similiar until the field hockey players started to codify rules. The ice hockey players used the same rules as the field hockey players, which is why hockey started to become more organised than shinty.
 

Ohashi_Jouzu*

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3. I don't know that the Scottish shinty was more "wild" than the English "hockey on the ice". Contemporary writers often describe hockey-on-the ice as violent and disturbing. The most likely scenario for me is that shinty and hockey-on-the-ice were pretty similiar until the field hockey players started to codify rules. The ice hockey players used the same rules as the field hockey players, which is why hockey started to become more organised than shinty.

From the 1886 article in The Graphic (London) that JA quoted:

"Shinty is still a favourite game in the Highlands and islands of Scotland, and is, generally speaking, a very rough-and-ready kind of business. In some districts, however, the game has been reduced to rules, and under these is played in some parts of the North of England. Further South it has recently become a much more refined and scientific game, and may fairly be called hockey."

And the differences between how shinny played out on local ponds while I was growing up versus how we played our league games (with referees, penalty boxes, everyone's parents spectating, etc) still mirrored such experiences 100 years later.
 

steve141

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Aug 13, 2009
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From the 1886 article in The Graphic (London) that JA quoted:

"Shinty is still a favourite game in the Highlands and islands of Scotland, and is, generally speaking, a very rough-and-ready kind of business. In some districts, however, the game has been reduced to rules, and under these is played in some parts of the North of England. Further South it has recently become a much more refined and scientific game, and may fairly be called hockey."

And the differences between how shinny played out on local ponds while I was growing up versus how we played our league games (with referees, penalty boxes, everyone's parents spectating, etc) still mirrored such experiences 100 years later.

Maybe we are talking about different time periods. What you are saying should be fairly obvious (i.e. that modern shinny is less organised than modern hockey).

However, that does not mean that shinty was the original game, which then evolved to hockey. I find it more likely that shinty/hockey-on-ice was pretty similar during the first half of the 19th century, but that hockey started to become more organised during the latter half. The quote you posted is fairly late (1886), when hockey had already been played with organised rules for a number of years.
 

Canadiens1958

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Montreal Herald

One more view from 1887. Kind of opening words of 1887 AHAC season.

The Montreal Daily Herald - Jan 6, 1887

Great contribution. The Montréal Daily Herald, later the Montréal Herald, a tabloid with many pictures had excellent hockey coverage in the last quarter of the 19th century and until 1958 when absorbed by the Montréal Star. Elmer Ferguson was the sports editor from the start of the NHL.
 

Theokritos

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Apr 6, 2010
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Let me ask a simple question: if hockey was bandy and bandy was hockey, when did hockey become hockey and bandy become bandy?

Perhaps a good answer would be: when "hockey" proceeded to be played with a flat object exclusively and "bandy" proceeded to be played with a round object exclusively.
 

dingbathero

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Jul 14, 2010
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What a thread !

I always thought (and still do tend to think) the native tribes of Canada played a game of "hockey" way before any English. I thought the first few attempts across the pond by settlers introduced them to the game and therefore enabled them to take the game back to the UK to introduce to anyone that would part take.

Great reads here.
 

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