HHoF - The Builders

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by John Flyers Fan, Apr 1, 2006.

  1. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    After the Roger neilson debate I thought it would be interestign to debate the merits of some others that will come up for consideration over the next few years.

    Some names to consider:

    Mike Keenan
    Pat Burns
    Pat Quinn
    Jaques Lemaire
    Ken Hitchcock
    Lou Lamarillo
    Ken Holland
    Pierre LaCroix

    Are they in if they retired after this season ??

    If not what must they do in the future to get in ??

    Do they have no chance ??
     
  2. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    I'll give my thought on those above shortly, but another question is

    Has anyone previously been inducted both as a player and a builder?

    Lemaire, Gainey and Clarke all have the possibility (more work to be done certainly) to be inducted as builders.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2006
  3. Psycho Papa Joe

    Psycho Papa Joe Porkchop Hoser

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    I'm guessing Toe Blake might be in as both a player and a builder.

    EDIT: He's not in as a builder. I'm assuming if you get in as a player, you no longer qualify to enter as a builder, since you are already in. That has to be the only reason Blake wouldn't be in as a builder.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2006
  4. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    I've had the distinct pleasure of meeting Ken Holland before. A class act all the way. He has quietly been a figurehead for one of the top teams in the league since the early 1990s. One more Cup, and he's a lock.

    Lamarillo's a virtual lock. He'll get in within the next few years. Likely the best GM in the league over the last 15 years.

    The rest will need a lot of work.

    My prediction is that Herb Brooks will be inducted this year. There appears to be a considerable groundswell of support for Brooks' candidacy. The Miracle on Ice doesn't happen without him.

    Here's a name who rarely gets mentioned but I'd like to see inducted: Dwight McMillian. Dwight who, you might say? He's the coach of the Weyburn Red Wings in the Saskatchewan Junior Hockey League (Tier II/Junior A, whatever you want to call it).

    It may sound foolish to induct a junior coach, but remember, Brian Kilrea went in three years ago. Dwight McMillian is the second-winningest coach in the history of Canadian junior hockey, after Kilrea. (He passed Bert Tempelton a couple years ago). He has two national championships and, I believe, and eight league titles. Roughly the same credentials as Kilrea. Since Kilrea's induction three years ago, there has been growing support in Canadian junior hockey circles to see Dwight join the Hall as well. It won't happen this year, especially with Brooks likely to be inducted, but it's a name to watch for the future.

    I think Hitchcock has a chance at some point in the future. I don't see Burns, Quinn, Lacroix or Keenan getting in.
     
  5. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    I don't think any of them have done enough to be Hall worthy.
     
  6. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    Lou Lamoriello`s qualifications can`t be argued by anybody. He`s a lock. Keenan makes the grade in my mind (Stanley Cup, 2 Canada Cups, took 3 different teams to Stanley Cup Final) but isn`t liked by everybody which may work against him. Pat Quinn is on the selection committee, it would look bad if he got in now.

    Lemaire is already in as a player; usually if you are inducted as a player then that`s it. Lester Patrick and Dirk Irvin are in as players, though their accomplishments after retirement were more noteworthy.
     
  7. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    I'd certainly take Keenan, Hitchcock and Burns over Neilson. I'd probably take Quinn over Neilson as well.
     
  8. Hasbro

    Hasbro Can He Skate?! Sponsor

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    Lou's the only lock in the bunch.

    Keenan has his detractors and his resume does have it's negatives.

    Burns has all those Jack Adams, but his cup came with the Devils after two other coaches won it with them

    Pat Quinn has two finals losses on his resume and two adams. His biggest career victory the 02 gold medal significantly got devalued in Turin. Has the Toronto connection though


    If Jaques Lemaire were eligible being percieved as the author of the netrual zone trap and the dead puck era would be a hinderence and bonus.

    Ken Hitchcock one cup with a deadly dull team. Depends on how much junior success will weight on this category in the future.

    Ken Holland has two cups however Scotty Bowman was nominal GM before the first win. Holland did alot of the GM work beforre then anyway though. Perception as a free spending team might hurt him in some hockey circles.

    Pierre Lacroix two cups some great trades on his CV. Rubs some people the wrong way and could be seen as a benifactor of the Lindros trade. The money issue also applies here.

    My builder nominees: If hockey is going to start looking at junior for this category they should also look at college hockey for the same, which when you add in the Miracle on ice with Brook's three NCAA titles which established college boys as NHL material he should be a shoe in. Other names like Murray Armstrong and Bob Johnson come to mind from the NCAA ranks

    I also think the Hanson Brothers should be in and I'm being absolutely serious about this. They are hockey's most beloved characters, added to the popularity of the game and have been ambasodors of the sport for years.
     
  9. Wetcoaster

    Wetcoaster Guest

  10. Wetcoaster

    Wetcoaster Guest

    Quinn should NEVER be considered for the HHOF. His ethics (or lack thereof) rank him with Alan Eagleson.

    Name the only non-player ever suspended from the NHL for conduct prejudicial to the NHL.

    Give up??

    It was about 19 years ago that NHL President John Ziegler expelled and banned Pat Quinn for life from the NHL for conduct prejudicial to the league during the infamous Quinngate affair. How soon we forget.

    If it was only an isolated incident, it may have been possible to just say it was an error in judgment; but this was one of three major ethical lapses by Quinn as a coach and GM.

    Pat Quinn was coach of the LA Kings during the 1986-87 season. While still coaching that team, under contract to the Kings and negotiating with the Kings for a contract extension of his coaching contract, he entered into mid-season negotiations with the Vancouver Canucks.

    On December 11, 1986 he reached an agreement in principle with Vancouver to become GM and President. On December 24,1986 he signed a contract with Vancouver to commence on June 1,1987 as President and GM. On January 2, 1987 while coaching LA and while in Vancouver to play the Canucks, a brown bag containing a $100,000 was delivered to him by a Canuck trainer to seal the deal while he was conducting a practice in preparation for the upcoming game with the Canucks. At that point in the season LA and Vancouver were locked in a struggle to make the play-offs.

    Quinn then returned to LA and arranged a lunch with Rogie Vachon, GM of the Kings. Vachon assumed the meeting was to finalize and sign Quinn's coaching contract extension. When Quinn told Vachon he had signed with the Canucks (but not about the $100,000 payment), Vachon was flabbergasted and stormed out of the restaurant, immediately calling Jerry Buss, the owner. After a few days delay, Buss called John Zeigler who became involved.

    Meanwhile rumours of the Quinn signing were surfacing in the Vancouver media. Zeigler then called Canucks owner who was in Hawaii on vacation who confirmed the signing and revealed that Quinn had received the $100,00 signing bonus to seal the deal.

    Zeigler was outraged and immediately expelled Pat Quinn from the NHL for dishonourable conduct on January 9, 1987. Pat Quinn would later say he never even considered how the public might perceive his conduct in accepting a $100,000 signing bonus from the Vancouver Canucks while he was still under contract to the Los Angeles Kings WELL DUH!!!!

    Quinn said that he felt that he had done nothing wrong. This from a person (Quinn), who had just completed his law degree and was in the process of seeking admission to the California State Bar.

    The statement from Ziegler expelling Quinn said: "Mr. Quinn is directly responsible for the preparation and conduct of the Los Angeles Kings' NHL game competitions. Despite these responsibilities, he has committed himself to assume the responsibilities of a general manager for a competing team in this league, has accepted money from them and yet has continued to attempt to discharge his responsibilities to the Los Angeles Kings. Effective immediately, and until further notice to the contrary, Mr. Patrick Quinn is expelled from the National Hockey League and may not be employee by any member club of the league or involved in any further activities on behalf of the league or any of its member clubs."

    Zeigler then appointed NHL chief legal counsel, Gil Stein to investigate the case fully and report back to him. After reviewing the report Ziegler fined the Vancouver Canucks $310,000 which represented 31 days from the time of the agreement in principle of December 11, 1986 until Quinn was expelled by Ziegler. Quinn was banned from joining the Canucks as GM until after the both LA and Vancouver were out of the play-offs and prohibited from coaching for three years.

    The Canucks and Quinn appealed the decision to the league Board of Governors and the appeal was dismissed. They then appealed to the BC Supreme Court. The Justice ruled that Ziegler had overstepped his bounds by fining the Canucks for 31 separate counts each at $10,000 per day and reduced the fine to $10,000. However he ruled that Ziegler was wholly within his jurisdiction to deal with Quinn in the manner he had done and declined to interfere in the discipline meted out by Ziegler to Pat Quinn.

    A reporter would later ask Quinn, if his decision to accept the Canucks' overture was out of character, Quinn said: "I'd like to think that's the case." NOT.

    Unfortunately it appears totally in character as, during his court appeal, evidence was filed showing that he had connived to keep his former contract to coach the Kings secret after being fired by the Flyers in 1985. By keeping the Kings contract-signing secret, he was able to obtain a further $50,000 as damages from the Flyers for his firing. Had he been truthful, he would not legally have been entitled to that payment. The Flyers management were furious when they learned of his deception and the Kings were not blameless either as they conspired with him to keep the deal under wraps. The Kings then should not have been surprised when Quinn did the same thing to them – they knew his predilections.

    Interestingly Quinngate came back to haunt Quinn during the Vladimir Krutov transfer fee dispute hearing held in Stockholm which ended up costing the Canucks about $1.3 million when the Arbitrator found Vancouver liable for the last two years of the transfer fee payments to the Russian Ice Hockey authorities for signing Krutov. Quinn’s credibility was destroyed when he was unable to explain to the satisfaction of the Arbitrator how it was that the Canucks were also reneging on the transfer fee payments for Igor Larionov although they had not cut him from the team.

    In a desperate last minute maneuver to shore up their crumbling case, the Canucks mere days before the hearing paid up the missed Larionov payments and in fact pre-paid the next installments. Quinn had loudly proclaimed his honesty and integrity when trying to explain the Larionov situation. Once Quinn did that, he opened up his character to question and the whole sordid Quinngate affair was laid out for the Arbitrator to see.

    The Canucks defense to not paying the transfer fees for Krutov rested on two grounds. Firstly the Krutov standard NHL playing contract with the Vancouver Canucks was collateral to the transfer fee agreement (sort of a sub-contract). The Canucks claimed that Krutov by allegedly breaching that contract by not being in shape as alleged by the Canucks, resulted in the Canucks being able to avoid the further transfer fees under the contract with the Russian authorities (of course the Larionov transfer fee situation did not go a long way to helping the Canucks case).

    The Canucks missed the major requirement to claim this was a collateral contract – Krutov was not party to the transfer fee agreement and as the Arbitrator pointed out it was first year law student knowledge that collateral contracts must be between the same parties. Interestingly neither Burke with his law degree from Harvard nor Quinn with his just completed law degree from the University of Philadeplhia picked up on this rather obvious defect in their case. DUH!

    The second defense was that Quinn alleged that he had an oral promise from the Russians that they would forgive the last two years of the transfer fees if either Krutov or Larionov did not stay with the team. The Russians denied that they had ever made such a promise. Again basic contract law generally prevents a party from going outside the signed contract clauses and like most contracts it also provided that all previous negotiations, discussions and agreements are void. Quinn then tried to claim that in fact this promise was given after the contracts were all signed and again the Russians denied this occurred. Again courts do not usually allow such claims but there are some exceptions. Even if an exception were to be made, it would require Quinn’s word to be preferred against that of the Russian negotiators. Given Quinngate and Quinn’s own abysmal performance in explaining the Larionov transfer fee situation, the Arbitrator had little trouble in dismissing Quinn’s credibility out of hand.

    This portion of Quinn’s testimony under cross-examination by counsel for the Russian hockey authorities is priceless and it was published in the Vancouver Province on February 26, 1992 under the headline QUINN: 'WE MESSED UP HERE' - THE KRUTOV RULING: THE TRANSCRIPTS
    Edited transcripts of Vancouver attorney Randy Wittchen, representing the Soviets, cross-examining Pat Quinn on circumstances of club missing agreed-upon transfer payments to Soviets for Igor Larionov.

    Quinn was President and GM (and a lawyer) and Krutov and Larionov at the time were the most expensive players under contract to the Canucks and if they were in fact the only two player contracts that Quinn had ever negotiated according to his own evidence. Do you not find it incredible he did not know precisely what was going on regarding the missed transfer fees? The Arbitrator certainly did.

    Pat Quinn should never be in the HHOF.
     
    Last edited by moderator : Apr 2, 2006
  11. kenny #9

    kenny #9 Registered User

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    very good read... you sure did your research
     
  12. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    Thanks for those details Wetcoaster. I remember the incident but never heard all those details about it. $100,000 in a brown paper bag :shakehead

    Did Quinn ever apologize, or did he just stick with the "I didn`t know it was wrong" defence?
     
  13. MiamiScreamingEagles

    MiamiScreamingEagles A Fistful of Dollars

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    John: Looking at the lists in the "NHL Official Guide & Record Book," I do not see any person who is in the HHOF as both a player and a builder.
     
  14. Snap Wilson

    Snap Wilson Registered User

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    He shouldn't even need that Cup. The amount of success that the Wings have enjoyed over the last fifteen years, with the exception of the Habs glory days, is unprecedented. If that hasn't earned Holland a HOF selection, nothing will.
     
  15. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    My personal take:

    Keenan: In if he retired today. 5th all-time in wins. Stanley Cup, two Canada Cups, Calder Cup and a CIAU title. IMO the NHL's best coach from 1985-95. Three other finals appearances, and one Jack Adams award.

    Burns: Not there yet, but a distinct possibility if he can continue his career. One Cup, three Jack Adams. Needs either a few more long playoff runs, or one more Stanley Cup.

    Quinn: Better than given credit for, but not in. Two Jack Adams, one Olympic gold and one World Cup. Twice a Cup finalist.

    Lemaire: No. Won 8 playoff series and a Cup in his first four seasons, but has won just three playoff series over his last eight.

    Hitchcock: Not yet, but likely on his way. One Cup, and another Finals appearance, two WHL titles in Kamploops. Has won 40+ games in every full NHL season.

    Lamarillo: No doubt. Three Stanley Cups, end of story.

    LaCroix: Not yet, but not far away. Walked into an ideal situation with a team on the verge of winning and winning big. He did make the two key deals to get them over the top each time (Roy & Blake).

    Holland: I won't argue him either way. Not living in Detroit it's tough to tell who was always making the moves Holland or Bowman.
     
  16. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Keenan is a lock. Like him or not, he's won championships at more different levels than anyone else in history. NHL, AHL, OHL, college hockey, international tournaments - he's won at every conceivable level with every sort of player. Absolutely dominant record from 1984-94. Amongst the all-time leaders in every coaching category. Complete no-brainer.

    Quinn is also a sure thing. 3rd all time in coaching victories (behind only Bowman and Arbour), 2 Adams awards, and a memorable Olympic victory.

    Burns stands a very good chance. Made a difference everywhere he went, has a record 3 Adams awards.

    Hitchcock is on the right track, as is Lacroix.

    Lamoriello is a dead lock, obviously.

    Lemaire is already in, so it's a moot point.

    Holland ... doubtful. Didn't become the GM in Detroit until after their greatest success, and the HHOF hasn't traditionally recognised scouting/player development success. And Neil Smith ran several of Detroit's best drafts (especially 1989) anyway.
     
  17. Wetcoaster

    Wetcoaster Guest

    I have never heard of Quinn tendering an apology for his actions. It is pretty hard to believe that he could not see that his actions were blatatantly wrong.

    I heard that during the Krutov transfer fee hearing in Sweden when he was cross-examined he was squirming pretty good and trying to justify his actions. He tried to claim he had been exonerated by the courts. According to reports at the time counsel for the Russians pulled out the BC Court ruling including the internal NHL investigative report which had been filed as part of the Canucks' appeal of Ziegler's ruling in BC Supreme Court showing that the BC Courts declined to interfere with Ziegler's disciplining of Quinn. Burke was fulminating about confidential internal documents until he finally got the point that it had been the Cancuks that had filed the NHL report as part of their case so Burkie had egg on his face yet again.

    I gather the report being introduced kind of took the wind out of Quinn's sails and reportedly it even shut up Brian Burke for a bit who stupidly had fired very capable real lawyers and had taken on the case himself. Burkie's first and last stab at litigation as far as I know. O for 1 as a litigator and a million dollar plus hit. Go Burkie :biglaugh: Having a law degree (even from Harvard) does not necessarily make you a lawyer. A lesson learned the hard way by Burkie.

    As I said Quinn has a serious ethical compass problem and that should disqualify him from the HHOF IMHO. YMMV. Did you like the acronyms strung together? :eek:
     
  18. Burke's Evil Spirit

    Burke's Evil Spirit Registered User

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    As reprehensible as his actions were regarding his employment with Vancouver and Los Angeles, jerking around the Russian Ice Hockey Federation with regard to transfer payments is about on the level with tactics used by so many NHL GMs to get players out of Europe before the transfer agreements.

    I still think he deserves to be in the HHoF. They allow ******** like Conn Smythe and Harold Ballard in? Quinn is definitely going in.
     
  19. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    Pat Quinn has two finals losses on his resume and two adams. His biggest career victory the 02 gold medal significantly got devalued in Turin. Has the Toronto connection though


    Pat is also one of the winningest NHL coaches ever
    he brought respectability to the LA Kings franchise Vancouver Franchsie and he maintained a level of sucess in Toronto not seen since the Hap Day era. In the mecca of hockey sucess isnt easy. Pat understood what it took to get the Mighty TML to play like the boys of summer all winter long. It wasnt till the reignes were turned over to a very green GM in john fergusson did pats sucess waiver.
     
  20. Bring Back Bucky

    Bring Back Bucky Registered User

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    Alan Eagleson also had a big part in some huge hockey moments, but he got the boot :deadhorse
     
  21. BlueAndWhite

    BlueAndWhite Registered User

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    I'm not familiar with Conn Smythe's *********** actions, care to elaborate ?
     
  22. Wetcoaster

    Wetcoaster Guest

    I believe you mean Conn's son, Stafford (who had a "little bit" of an alcohol problem)who died days before he was to go on trial for income tax evasion.

    Ballard was convicted of theft, fraud and tax evasion (48 counts IIRC) in 1972 and spent a year in jail at Millhaven (he would refer to his incarceration as like being at a country club). The Leafs had their best year as an organization during the ballard Reign of (T)error while was he was country-clubbing.

    Here is the famous interview he gave with Barbara Frum and Dick Beddoes - he said women should be on their backs not on the radio. AHHHHHHHH - Prince Hal with the prematurely orange hair.
    http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-68-368-2102/arts_entertainment/frum/clip6
     
  23. Wetcoaster

    Wetcoaster Guest

    A little different from the old days of smuggling players out. There were signed contracts in place and Quinn ignored them and then lied under oath when he was caught out.

    Pretty reprehensible in my books and doubly so since Quinn is has a law degree.
     
  24. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    my fave ballard bit is the 200 or so - mystery seats at the garden
     
  25. Burke's Evil Spirit

    Burke's Evil Spirit Registered User

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    He pulled some really despicable actions when it came time to pay his players. I read it in Net Worth, though, so it's fully possible I'm wrong...
     

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