(HF Story) WHL Top 40 Eligible Players for 2005

[Aaron Vickers]

I think Dupont's a little high. caught fire this year? come on, he had a ppg of .37. Good list though

The first half of the season for Brodie Dupont was a write-off. Perhaps he just needed some time to adjust to the game. He had only 8 points in 36 games, a points per game of .22.

As soon as 2005 hit, Dupont was incredible. Without a doubt, he was the single most improved player on the Hitmen last season, and I'm willing to go so far as to say he was the third best forward on the team in the second half of the season. In 34 games in the second half of the season, Dupont had 17, doubling his output and his points per game to .50

He followed that up with 10 points in 12 games in the playoffs, third on the team, and a points per game of .83, at the most important time of the season.

There isn't anything he cannot do. He's willing to hit, forecheck, drop the gloves. Having seen Ladd all last year and this year, and seeing Dupont this year, I'm prepared to say that Dupont looks to be a Ladd clone.

 

[MS]

Well, looks like MS beat me to it. Right on again by the way, imo.

I think the main difference in our takes on Franson is that I like his skating more than you. I don't think it's great now, because he's so raw and lanky, but I think the tools are there for it to really take off - IMO his feet are very quick for his size, his lateral mobility strong, and he has a solid skating stride. I think in a year or two when he's more used to his size, and has an added 15 lbs of weight and leg drive, his skating will really be an asset for him.

What you say about scouts liking guys with steep development curves is bang-on, as well.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

The first half of the season for Brodie Dupont was a write-off. Perhaps he just needed some time to adjust to the game. He had only 8 points in 36 games, a points per game of .22.

As soon as 2005 hit, Dupont was incredible. Without a doubt, he was the single most improved player on the Hitmen last season, and I'm willing to go so far as to say he was the third best forward on the team in the second half of the season. In 34 games in the second half of the season, Dupont had 17, doubling his output and his points per game to .50

He followed that up with 10 points in 12 games in the playoffs, third on the team, and a points per game of .83, at the most important time of the season.

There isn't anything he cannot do. He's willing to hit, forecheck, drop the gloves. Having seen Ladd all last year and this year, and seeing Dupont this year, I'm prepared to say that Dupont looks to be a Ladd clone.

I think you are overhyping Dupont. He doesn't have the offensive ability or upside as Ladd does. This guy projects as a bottom six player, if that. Good toughness and physical game but not the tools to be top six potential. That said, I do like Dupont.

Barnes is much etter than 22. Brutal injury robbed a year of development. He dominated games this year but must battle consistency issues. Size and skill is a good base which warrants higher placing. Worthy of a second or third round gamble, imo.

Plante is a very good keeper. Someone I would also look at in second or third round. Tough mental makeup and a winner.

 

[Aaron Vickers]

I think you are overhyping Dupont. He doesn't have the offensive ability or upside as Ladd does. This guy projects as a bottom six player, if that. Good toughness and physical game but not the tools to be top six potential. That said, I do like Dupont.

Barnes is much etter than 22. Brutal injury robbed a year of development. He dominated games this year but must battle consistency issues. Size and skill is a good base which warrants higher placing. Worthy of a second or third round gamble, imo.

Plante is a very good keeper. Someone I would also look at in second or third round. Tough mental makeup and a winner.

You're right. He doesn't have the offensive ability of Andrew Ladd, otherwise he'd have been playing on his line with Getzlaf. I think when they are the same age, that Dupont will be able to put up similar, if not better numbers than Ladd has in his junior career thus far.

The beauty of Andrew Ladd isn't his current offensive ability, but how well his game will translate to the pro level. I see what appears to be the start of the same thing for Brodie Dupont. In fact, I've also already heard it from scouts. It'd be wrong of me to claim the Dupont-Ladd connection all to myself, because even both Ladd and Dupont have both said it.

I don't think that I'm overhyping Dupont at all, especially considering that those I've talked to (both scouts and writers) have echoed the same sentiment at varying points of the season this year (granted all in the last half).

 

[MS]

You're right. He doesn't have the offensive ability of Andrew Ladd, otherwise he'd have been playing on his line with Getzlaf. I think when they are the same age, that Dupont will be able to put up similar, if not better numbers than Ladd has in his junior career thus far.

The beauty of Andrew Ladd isn't his current offensive ability, but how well his game will translate to the pro level. I see what appears to be the start of the same thing for Brodie Dupont. In fact, I've also already heard it from scouts. It'd be wrong of me to claim the Dupont-Ladd connection all to myself, because even both Ladd and Dupont have both said it.

I don't think that I'm overhyping Dupont at all, especially considering that those I've talked to (both scouts and writers) have echoed the same sentiment at varying points of the season this year (granted all in the last half).

Ladd and Dupont do play a similar style, have some similar attributes, and I agree that Dupont will probably step into Ladd's shoes/role over the next couple seasons for the Hitmen, and don't doubt he can put up relatively similar numbers. But Ladd's skillset is markedly better. He has an NHL shot, very nice playmaking ability for a grinding type, good hockey sense and pretty decent puckhandling skills. Dupont doesn't have any of those abilities anywhere near that level. He's a pure meat-and-potatoes type with good fundamentals, but not Ladd's vision or smarts. Ladd has top-6 upside in the NHL, Dupont absolutely does not. At least from the 8 or 10 games I've seen of him.

___________


Looking through the list again, I notice that the writers are based in the Central Division, and that there's a bit of disproportional represention toward that division. Which is understandable - I know I have more familiarity with the BC players and have them rated a bit higher as a result. But 15 of 40 guys are from the Central (in a year where I'd argue the Central falls well behind the East and US divisions), and most of those guys are given pretty generous rankings. By contrast, only 15 are from the entire Western Conference, and many are much lower than I would have expected.

 

[Leaf Army]

Where were guys like Todd Robinson and Chris St. Jacques selected? Yellowhorn is just another in that line of player. Someone might take a flyer on him in the 7th-9th rounds. I never say there's 'no chance' of something happening, because anything always can, but I'd fall out of my chair if he goes as high as rounds 3-4.

This is just not the sort of player NHL teams look to draft.

The fact you equate Yellowhorn with guys like Robinson and St. Jacques is where you go wrong.

Neither Robinson or St. Jacques were anywhere near the league leaders when they were 17.

Yellowhorn will go 5th round at the very latest.

 

[MS]

The fact you equate Yellowhorn with guys like Robinson and St. Jacques is where you go wrong.

Neither Robinson or St. Jacques were anywhere near the league leaders when they were 17.

Yellowhorn will go 5th round at the very latest.

The numbers aren't important (although for the record both were top-20 or so scorers in the league in their draft years, and both were amongst the 2 or 3 highest-scoring draft-eligible guys). Whether Yellowhorn has a few more points when you adjust for era doesn't change the fact that's he's basically a carbon copy of a guy like Robinson ... I remember Robinson well, and they're about as similar as two guys can be. And no-one gave Robinson a sniff. Or the vast majority of other shrimpy scorers to come along in the last decade.

Whether it's right or wrong, NHL teams don't draft 5'7" guys in the first half of the draft, especially average-skating ones like Yellowhorn.

This is one of those arguments that isn't going to go very far. We'll bump this thread on draft day, either way.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Ladd and Dupont do play a similar style, have some similar attributes, and I agree that Dupont will probably step into Ladd's shoes/role over the next couple seasons for the Hitmen, and don't doubt he can put up relatively similar numbers. But Ladd's skillset is markedly better. He has an NHL shot, very nice playmaking ability for a grinding type, good hockey sense and pretty decent puckhandling skills. Dupont doesn't have any of those abilities anywhere near that level. He's a pure meat-and-potatoes type with good fundamentals, but not Ladd's vision or smarts. Ladd has top-6 upside in the NHL, Dupont absolutely does not. At least from the 8 or 10 games I've seen of him.

I agree completely. And this separates these two players.

 

[Guy Flaming]

Looking through the list again, I notice that the writers are based in the Central Division, and that there's a bit of disproportional represention toward that division. Which is understandable - I know I have more familiarity with the BC players and have them rated a bit higher as a result. But 15 of 40 guys are from the Central (in a year where I'd argue the Central falls well behind the East and US divisions), and most of those guys are given pretty generous rankings. By contrast, only 15 are from the entire Western Conference, and many are much lower than I would have expected.

Aaron's in Cowgary (dig!) and I'm in Edmonton but Jeff is in the states and was able to see a whack of the US. Division teams play.

The scouts I talked to were in BC, AB, and SK so I think we had a wide spread on our input.

 

[Guy Flaming]

This is one of those arguments that isn't going to go very far. We'll bump this thread on draft day, either way.

Yellowhorn, you might be right, but I really believe Russell will be gone before the end of the 5th round.

Bragging rights on the line now I guess .

 

[MS]

Aaron's in Cowgary (dig!) and I'm in Edmonton but Jeff is in the states and was able to see a whack of the US. Division teams play.

The scouts I talked to were in BC, AB, and SK so I think we had a wide spread on our input.

Fair enough then. I don't agree that this WHL crop is skewed that way with such a heavy central representation, but I don't doubt you guys did your best to gather a comprehensive range of viewpoints.

Sorry if I'm coming off negative on the article as that's not my intention at all ... it's very well-researched and well-written, most of what's in it is pretty dead-on, and the site needs more articles of this quality. Sometimes it's easier to pick out things that you don't like than things that you do.

Bragging rights on the line now I guess .

Guess so.

I've been keeping a running list as the season goes along, so I'm curious how close I'll be too.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

So what players were close to making that list? Perhaps a list of the 41-50 guys?

 

[Stiffler's Mom]

That's fair enough.

Well, here's a quick rundown of Cody Franson as a player to start. He's 6'5 with a lanky frame that played his rookie season last year as a 17 year old. To start the season he was fighting to stay in the lineup and wasn't getting a whole lot of minutes, and looked shaky at best. Over the year he made excellent strides and improved to the point of being named the Giants most improved player.

As a player, he is an average skater with not very good acceleration or speed, but reasonable lateral mobility. He is pretty good one on one, and although he often gives me the impression of just barely hanging on and staying in front of his man and appears have some trouble with gap control to me, he is rarely beat to the outside so he's getting it done somehow. He uses his reach and size moderately well, but he certainly needs to become much more of a physical force to have a chance to play. Offensively, he's a bit of an odd mixed bag to me. He has this incredible knack to get his shot on net that I love, and he occasionally makes really nice breakout passes and homerun passes, but he also seems timid and lacks confidence with the puck at times and makes way too many terrible first passes that go for icing (this is partially the fault of the Giants forwards, though, who love to stand around and make it hard on the dmen). By the end of the year he was getting fairly consistent pp time and was typically playing over Max Gordichuk, who was being scratched most nights. One of the big things with Franson is his confidence and consistency. It seems like when he plays with confidence he looks really great, but some nights he just looks unsure of himself and gets himself into trouble.

As for justifying a spot on a list like this, well obviously the first thing is that he has NHL size. He needs to improve his physical presence and skating to ever play, but the potential is there. The other really encouraging quality he has shown is his great work ethic and extremely impressive improvement over the year. I know scouts love to see steep development curves. CSS had him ranked 104th among NA skaters, and 22nd in the WHL (yeah I know, the CSS loves size). I'm definitely not his biggest fan, and I don't think he'll ever play, but I do think he has a chance to play and I think he'll be drafted in the first 6 rounds.

Hopefully that helps.

If he can't send a pass to a Giant's forward that is "standing around" as you put it, how is he going to pass to a forward that is moving. Franson's passing skills are terrible.

 

[Sabes]

I wish big Mike Gauthier was ranked a bit higher, sure he didn't have a good season but after he came back from his broken leg he played very well.

 

[Guy Flaming]

Who saw Matt Keetley play? He was a tough guy to get scouting comments on.

I saw him 3 or 4 times and he never had a bad goal in those games, absolutely robbed some Calgary Hitmen player (might have been Getzlaf or LAdd) in a game in Medicine Hat that the Tigers won 4-1 despite being outshot something like 38-18.

Anyone?

 

[dubfan]

i think scouts look past the other vancouver giants prospects. they pay soooo much attention to brule that the dont notice what Tim Kraus, JD Watt, and Cody Franson bring to the table. i think all 3 of them should be in the top 40 for sure. Kraus maybe around 25. Watt around 32. franson anywhere from 20-30. What do all of you think about these players??

 

[Greg7]

i think scouts look past the other vancouver giants prospects. they pay soooo much attention to brule that the dont notice what Tim Kraus, JD Watt, and Cody Franson bring to the table. i think all 3 of them should be in the top 40 for sure. Kraus maybe around 25. Watt around 32. franson anywhere from 20-30. What do all of you think about these players??

Franson I've stated my opinion on. I think he should be on this list in the 25-35 range depending on how you like him, and I think he's a good bet to go by round 5 or 6, and wouldn't be shocked to see him gone after the first day. I'm not his biggest fan, but his size, reasonable skill level and mobility, and excellent development are attractive.

I think JD Watt has really limited upside but if everything goes perfectly for him he might make it as a 4th line agitator type. His skating is okay at a WHL level, but needs to be better for him to get a shot at the NHL. He obviously has a nice edge to him, but I think he needs to be more physically imposing on a regular basis within the flow of the game, not just between the whistles. His skill level, although certainly nothing special, might be better than we saw last season - at least good enough so that it isn't holding him back from being a competent 4th liner. I get the sense that the hands are there waiting to be used, and hope to see a much better offensive output from him next season. If he can improve his defensive game and start hitting a bit more effectively and getting in on the forecheck, he might start looking like a potential player. All in all, I'd say he has a chance to be drafted, and could credibly sneak onto this list, but I definitely have no problem with him being omitted.

I don't think Tim Kraus has much of a chance at all to play. He was given a golden opportunity to show scouts what he can do playing a top 6 role with Brule and Bartley and did basically nothing with it. His skating is very average, he lacks strength in his legs and his upper body, and he has zero work ethic or consistency. He has pretty good skill, but not nearly enough to make up for his lack of ability in every other area. Poor on the forecheck, poor on the backcheck, bad in the corners and in front of the net, and only decent with the puck. I'd personally be surprised to see anyone draft him. I would certainly not have him even touching a top 40 WHL list because of his lack of NHL calibre abilities.

 

[Aaron Vickers]

Who saw Matt Keetley play? He was a tough guy to get scouting comments on.

If I recall correctly, I saw him play once on television (which isn't the best way to scout, but for goaltenders you can start to create ideas about) and another time in person. He was a goaltender that I wasn't too sold on positionally. Obviously the stats seem to speak for themselves, but I also remember thinking that he gave up a lot of ackward rebounds, that he didn't necessarily yet have the skills to dumping the puck to the side instead of out in front of the net.

Granted, he could be a sleeper, since he did so well in such limited action. Can't speak for any scouts on Keetley this time around, but I will be interested to see where he falls.

 

[dubfan]

Franson I've stated my opinion on. I think he should be on this list in the 25-35 range depending on how you like him, and I think he's a good bet to go by round 5 or 6, and wouldn't be shocked to see him gone after the first day. I'm not his biggest fan, but his size, reasonable skill level and mobility, and excellent development are attractive.

I think JD Watt has really limited upside but if everything goes perfectly for him he might make it as a 4th line agitator type. His skating is okay at a WHL level, but needs to be better for him to get a shot at the NHL. He obviously has a nice edge to him, but I think he needs to be more physically imposing on a regular basis within the flow of the game, not just between the whistles. His skill level, although certainly nothing special, might be better than we saw last season - at least good enough so that it isn't holding him back from being a competent 4th liner. I get the sense that the hands are there waiting to be used, and hope to see a much better offensive output from him next season. If he can improve his defensive game and start hitting a bit more effectively and getting in on the forecheck, he might start looking like a potential player. All in all, I'd say he has a chance to be drafted, and could credibly sneak onto this list, but I definitely have no problem with him being omitted.

I don't think Tim Kraus has much of a chance at all to play. He was given a golden opportunity to show scouts what he can do playing a top 6 role with Brule and Bartley and did basically nothing with it. His skating is very average, he lacks strength in his legs and his upper body, and he has zero work ethic or consistency. He has pretty good skill, but not nearly enough to make up for his lack of ability in every other area. Poor on the forecheck, poor on the backcheck, bad in the corners and in front of the net, and only decent with the puck. I'd personally be surprised to see anyone draft him. I would certainly not have him even touching a top 40 WHL list because of his lack of NHL calibre abilities.

thanks for the comments. very interesting. lots of back up to what you feel. I guess i could put my thought on these players as well.

Franson- like others have said i believe he has a very high talent level. I notice that when he is breaking out of his zone he seems to be thinking over what he is going to do for too long and he ends up making mistakes. he makes hard passes but not always where they should be. he has great size but rarely uses it. i watched mosienko work him all playoffs. will get drafted cause his size and skill.

Watt- Not afraid of anyone. hes a checker. i dont see him as anythign else. he seemed to have an alright shot and wasnt much of a passer. he finishes all checks. he doesnt really seem to be that aware of his role in the defensive zone. i believe he had one of the worst +/- on the giants this year.

Kraus- To me, Kraus has the highest skill level of any 3 of these kids. i think he had less than 10 points when he was 16. this year i think he had about 40 points. he has a real soft pair of hands, doesnt use them as well as he could. i feel he is a good skater but he must not be very well conditioned cause he doesnt seem to be going top speed very often. he had good chemistry with brule and bartley the first half the year then something must have happened between him and don hay cause thats all i ever read about in the papers with kraus. he stopped playing very much and he just wasnt all there the second half. but i must say he stepped up his play in the playoffs.

it will be very interesting to see what happens with these kids in the draft and how they develop over the summer. i think all 3 kids are very raw and bring totally different things to the giants.

 

[Ti-girl]

Who saw Matt Keetley play? He was a tough guy to get scouting comments on.

I saw him 3 or 4 times and he never had a bad goal in those games, absolutely robbed some Calgary Hitmen player (might have been Getzlaf or LAdd) in a game in Medicine Hat that the Tigers won 4-1 despite being outshot something like 38-18.

Anyone?

If you want any reports on the fiveTiger boys (Keets, Russ, Gordie, Helmsie and Dave) give me a shout and I'll be more than happy to answer your questions.

 

[Guy Flaming]

If you want any reports on the fiveTiger boys (Keets, Russ, Gordie, Helmsie and Dave) give me a shout and I'll be more than happy to answer your questions.

That was an open request for a local person's perspective on Keetley. And if you have stuff to add on the other guys, please... post away!

I saw the Tigers play 4 times last season (I'm in EDM so not exactly down the block from me). The game against Calgary was the most noteworthy for me.

Badly outshot by the Hitmen something like 39-18, Keetley stole the game for the Tigers who won 4-1. I believe it was Pogge's first loss with the Hitmen but I'm not certain of that.

Anyway, Keetley was nothing short of amazing in that one game, and obviously that's just one game, but by the end of the game he was getting standing ovations and the crowd was chantting his name.

Russell was also very good that night. Both Marr and Barker were out and Russell was the man on the Tigers backend. Talked to him after the game for ISS and he was a very well spoken and down to earth guy, said all the right things and had a great attitude. Coach Willie Desjardins loved the kid.

Helm played well but I couldn't tell you for sure that Baldwin or Dave even played.

 

[Ti-girl]

Once I get back from work I'll give you a full recap of what I saw...

If you have any questions about any of the Tigers FA or Draft eligable players I'll post them as well.

-- Ti

 

[Guy Flaming]

Once I get back from work I'll give you a full recap of what I saw...

If you have any questions about any of the Tigers FA or Draft eligable players I'll post them as well.

-- Ti

wow... you must be a mom, sister, girlfriend or just one dedicated fan!

looking forward to your report.

 

[Hunter74]

Dan Mercer is an omission considering just about every other defenceman that goes through RedDeer gets drafted high,if not too high.
I wonder if it also has something to do with Mercer not being one of Brent Sutters favorite players?

So i take it you dont like the Sutters. Is it b/c the Sutters have a Flames connection at the moment when really they have an ALberta connection. Or is it your annoyed that people have jumped on the Sutter bandwagon since one went to the SCF and the other won gold at the WJC?

Personally i think its an insult to alot of people when you imply that they only like a certain player(s) b/c someone else (Brent Sutter) thinks highly of them.

 

[Ti-girl]

wow... you must be a mom, sister, girlfriend or just one dedicated fan!

looking forward to your report.

Can't release that information