Hayes vs. Stamkos in 08'

[Sore Loser]

Is anybody else reminded of the whole "Crosby vs. Kessel" event?

 

[AmericanDream]

Is anybody else reminded of the whole "Crosby vs. Kessel" event?

well I dont think that really holds up here, since neither are in the NHL, but I am sure there were some debates before Crosbys draft year about the American version of the next one...I wasnt around here then. Stamkos is a stud, and Hayes is a stud, I just think the gap between the two isnt as far as some would like us to believe. Are people talking about Stamkos as much as they are about Tavares???? Ummm, no. Tavares is elite, Stamkos is not there. I simply dont think that he is a franchise player that noone can be compared to or catch come draft time. I'll put money on it says he probably wont go #1 overall next year, just for the fact that very few times has a player gone number one after being ranked #1 for a year or 2.

I LOVE STAMKOS. The kid is a great, but he is not uncatchable IMO.

 

[VOB]

I understand what you are saying American Dream and it is true, anything can happen a year from now. As of now though, Stamkos is the clearly the better player in comparison to Hayes. Its really an odd comparison to make because there are better players out there than Hayes who can give Stamkos a run for his money.

 

[orangeandblack]

I understand what you are saying American Dream and it is true, anything can happen a year from now. As of now though, Stamkos is the clearly the better player in comparison to Hayes. Its really an odd comparison to make because there are better players out there than Hayes who can give Stamkos a run for his money.

like wilson for an american, or hodgson for an ohl player.

 

[MaskedSonja]

Seems like there's a bit of friendly competition from 07-09 as far as Drafts are concerned, with Guys like Kane and Ganger going in 07, Stamkos and Doughty in 08 and of course Travares in 09. I've only recently started following drafts the past couple of years, are they always this competitive in comparsion, or is it simply the fact that in all 3 years(including 07) there are "big names" going in the draft, thus the comparisions?

Funny thing is, we all won't know how the drafts have been in hindsight for about 4-5 years at least. Still fun to speculate.

At least in Sarnia I'll have another year to watch a number of these guys come through-be interesting to see how Kane(assuming he stays in London another year)Stamkos and Travares are going to do in the scoring race in the OHL this year. 1-2-3 perhaps(though not necessarily in this order)?

I'm still holding that if I'm a team that doesn't want to wait till 09, the 08 draft is a fine one to tank for too

As for Stamkos not being talked about like Travares, I think the media had a helping hand in that(NOT to discredit Travares, he'll be a phenom). I think Stamkos could be a franchise type player. I don't see Stamkos like Travares or even a Kane who strike me as more pure goalscorers. I compare Stamkos to a Yzerman, someone who scores goals but also does a lot of playmaking on the ice. If Stamkos grows up to be another Yzerman(as opposed to say a Gretzky or Lemeiux) I could live with that.

Will Stamkos be another Crosby? I don't know about that, I think Travares will get those comparisons. But I'll be happy if Travares is getting 50 or more goals a year in the NHL, and Stamkos is getting "only" 40-45, I'll be happy.

Wonder if guys like Travares and Stamkos read these boards?

 

[AmericanDream]

I understand what you are saying American Dream and it is true, anything can happen a year from now. As of now though, Stamkos is the clearly the better player in comparison to Hayes. Its really an odd comparison to make because there are better players out there than Hayes who can give Stamkos a run for his money.

and I understand your point to a degree about Hayes, which also is fine. I feel that within next year Hayes will step up and be the top Yank come draft day. I am not saying he is side by side with Stamkos, but I am projecting what he could be in a year. Good discussions, and lets hope 08' is a great top heavy draft, the NHL needs to keep having big time players coming in every year.

 

[AmericanDream]

Seems like there's a bit of friendly competition from 07-09 as far as Drafts are concerned, with Guys like Kane and Ganger going in 07, Stamkos and Doughty in 08 and of course Travares in 09. I've only recently started following drafts the past couple of years, are they always this competitive in comparsion, or is it simply the fact that in all 3 years(including 07) there are "big names" going in the draft, thus the comparisions?

Funny thing is, we all won't know how the drafts have been in hindsight for about 4-5 years at least. Still fun to speculate.

At least in Sarnia I'll have another year to watch a number of these guys come through-be interesting to see how Kane(assuming he stays in London another year)Stamkos and Travares are going to do in the scoring race in the OHL this year. 1-2-3 perhaps(though not necessarily in this order)?

I'm still holding that if I'm a team that doesn't want to wait till 09, the 08 draft is a fine one to tank for too

As for Stamkos not being talked about like Travares, I think the media had a helping hand in that(NOT to discredit Travares, he'll be a phenom). I think Stamkos could be a franchise type player. I don't see Stamkos like Travares or even a Kane who strike me as more pure goalscorers. I compare Stamkos to a Yzerman, someone who scores goals but also does a lot of playmaking on the ice. If Stamkos grows up to be another Yzerman(as opposed to say a Gretzky or Lemeiux) I could live with that.

Will Stamkos be another Crosby? I don't know about that, I think Travares will get those comparisons. But I'll be happy if Travares is getting 50 or more goals a year in the NHL, and Stamkos is getting "only" 40-45, I'll be happy.

Wonder if guys like Travares and Stamkos read these boards?

I like the comparision of Stamkos to Yzerman..I also like Sakic. I know that contradicts what I said about him NOT being a franchise player, but I think he is their caliber of player. Both will be HOFamers no doubt, and Stamkos fits that mold. I was just saying that Tavares seems to be the better player then Stamkos, and gets the hype to back it up. Stamkos will do just fine in the NHL, and I look forward to seeing him there soon. Again, a great talent, will be an All-Star, just dont think he will be in the top 5-7 of the league which many think Tavares will.

And you are right, the OHL can be scary next year if Kane and Gagner dont make NHL clubs this fall.

In reference to wondering if Stamkos and Tavares read these boards...they are too busy living in a world that most of us could only dream of. They dont have time to read what other people are talking about them, and why would they? I wouldnt want to read anything about me on this board if my name was Kessel or Esposito..very tough to stomach sometimes. Too many goons on here would make some of these kids not believe in themselves anymore.

 

[cdnhky1]

I understand what you are saying American Dream and it is true, anything can happen a year from now. As of now though, Stamkos is the clearly the better player in comparison to Hayes. Its really an odd comparison to make because there are better players out there than Hayes who can give Stamkos a run for his money.

This is what I don't get. It seems like Hayes was arbitrarily chosen as the guy who will push Stamkos when there are several other players who are rated ahead of Hayes now and appear to be better prospects. If anyone is going to push Stamkos for the number one spot it's Doughty and Pietrangelo. I'll take Colin Wilson over Hayes any day and I think there is a much better chance that other forwards such as Hodgson and Toews overtake Hayes than Hayes surpassing Stamkos. This belief that Stamkos can be surpassed because anything can happen in a year and because he's not as good as Tavares is comical. If Tavares is better than Stamkos it's certainly not by much and there are people who will tell you they think Stamkos is the better player now and will be in the future. I recently spoke to a contact of mine who attended the u-18's recently and he said the thought Stamkos was far and away the best player in the tournament as an underage.

I think the only way Stamkos doesn't go number one next year is because the team drafting one wants a dman more. I can't see any forward overtaking him. Is it possible? Yes. But I think it's also highly unlikely.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

This is what I don't get. It seems like Hayes was arbitrarily chosen as the guy who will push Stamkos when there are several other players who are rated ahead of Hayes now and appear to be better prospects. If anyone is going to push Stamkos for the number one spot it's Doughty and Pietrangelo. I'll take Colin Wilson over Hayes any day and I think there is a much better chance that other forwards such as Hodgson and Toews overtake Hayes than Hayes surpassing Stamkos. This belief that Stamkos can be surpassed because anything can happen in a year and because he's not as good as Tavares is comical. If Tavares is better than Stamkos it's certainly not by much and there are people who will tell you they think Stamkos is the better player now and will be in the future. I recently spoke to a contact of mine who attended the u-18's recently and he said the thought Stamkos was far and away the best player in the tournament as an underage.

I think the only way Stamkos doesn't go number one next year is because the team drafting one wants a dman more. I can't see any forward overtaking him. Is it possible? Yes. But I think it's also highly unlikely.

Right, but the point remains that a lot can happen in a year. Guys like Spezza and Kessel were anointed the number one overall pick in their respective draft classes long before their actual draft year, and look what happened to them. I'm not going to sit here and say Hayes will edge out Stamkos, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

 

[ReLyT]

im sure it would be similar to the 200k pat kane recieved from london, or an incredible education package.

prove it...

 

[AmericanDream]

This is what I don't get. It seems like Hayes was arbitrarily chosen as the guy who will push Stamkos when there are several other players who are rated ahead of Hayes now and appear to be better prospects. If anyone is going to push Stamkos for the number one spot it's Doughty and Pietrangelo. I'll take Colin Wilson over Hayes any day and I think there is a much better chance that other forwards such as Hodgson and Toews overtake Hayes than Hayes surpassing Stamkos. This belief that Stamkos can be surpassed because anything can happen in a year and because he's not as good as Tavares is comical. If Tavares is better than Stamkos it's certainly not by much and there are people who will tell you they think Stamkos is the better player now and will be in the future. I recently spoke to a contact of mine who attended the u-18's recently and he said the thought Stamkos was far and away the best player in the tournament as an underage.

I think the only way Stamkos doesn't go number one next year is because the team drafting one wants a dman more. I can't see any forward overtaking him. Is it possible? Yes. But I think it's also highly unlikely.

I dont know what you find comical about any of this..I'm not laughing..must not have been funny then.

If you are going to even say that Tavares and Stamkos are even, well then I really dont need to comment any further. Tavares is a once a decade prospect, while a Stamkos comes along almost every year. But you have your opinion and you are entitled to it..simply showing that if you think that Stamkos and Tavares are even, then you shouldnt even dare say that Hayes cant compare with Stamkos a year from now. I even think Tavares will get some challenge come 09' just for the simple fact THAT ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN!

There is no arbitrary here in regards to Hayes. I dont care about Wilson, or Doughty, I am saying that in my opinion it will be Hayes challenging for the #1 spot. Have you never projected a player a year down the road? Have you never seen potential? Hayes has the best complete package (size, skill, and potential) then any other forward that I have seen or heard about for next years draft. That is my opinion. I just dont get people like you that deal in absolutes.

You have no way of telling who or what is going to happen 1 year from now. You cant! Unless you are a Jedi or something. If you dont think Hayes will be there come next season, fine, but dont be ignorant and say that nobody is going to be able to compete with Stamkos a year from now because you say so. That is just comical.

 

[Ferjo]

If you are going to even say that Tavares and Stamkos are even, well then I really dont need to comment any further. Tavares is a once a decade prospect, while a Stamkos comes along almost every year.

I dont want to turn this into a Stamkos/Tavares thread, but you're really going a bit too far. Tavares isn't anything like a "once in a decade prospect", atleast not in my mind, considering he's nothing close two atleast two prospects from this decade, and on the same level with 3 or 4 others, Kovalchuk, Heatley and Spezza off the top of my head. the whole Tavares-hype machine is so ridicously out of control, it's not even funny, considering at best I'd peg him to be a Dany Heatley clone.

It's easy to look at their stat sheets (not to say you are just doing this, just in general) and see at the same age Tavares has 50 more points, or whatever it was, put watching them play all season, Stamkos has what it takes to be just as good, if not better at the next level.

if you're going to compare the two, in skating/explosiveness, stickhandling and play off the puck, it's Stamkos in a landslide. it's not even a competition in those areas. playmaking, and general offensive awareness would be Tavares, and goal scoring is the only place Tavares easily wins. out of 10 if you want to rate them in goal scoring, its 9 for Stamkos, and 13 for Tavares. All round Stamkos is the better player, and his offence isn't a big enough step below Tavares' to say he's nowhere near as good as him.

I don't know. Call me crazy. I see big things for both players, but don't count me in as one of the "Tavares = Crosby!!!!!" believers

 

[VOB]

There is no arbitrary here in regards to Hayes. , I am saying that in my opinion it will be Hayes challenging for the #1 spot. Have you never projected a player a year down the road? Have you never seen potential? Hayes has the best complete package (size, skill, and potential) then any other forward that I have seen or heard about for next years draft. That is my opinion. I just dont get people like you that deal in absolutes.

You have no way of telling who or what is going to happen 1 year from now. You cant! Unless you are a Jedi or something. If you dont think Hayes will be there come next season, fine, but dont be ignorant and say that nobody is going to be able to compete with Stamkos a year from now because you say so. That is just comical.

Using your criteria then, I can safely say that a player like James Livingston (good size, mean aggressive player who has skills as well) will be the best forward prospect next year....if you don't like him well then let me pull another one out my hat because what you are talking about here are "ifs', "maybes" and "who's to say" and nothing more.

We can spin our wheels all day long talking about potential and what might happen if such and such occurs or we can simply look at the players in question, see what they have done, what they already possess and how they are progressing and make a determination from there.

Yes some anointed players like Esposito and Kessel fall to the wayside but if you go back, even on this board, you will see that some of us ignored the hype on both of these players (yes I was one) and stated that they have some major flaws the could potentially knock them out of the top spot (heck I said last year that Espo would be lucky to be a top five pick this year) and that is what happened.

In regards to Stamkos, yes he is not infallible but lets be honest here; there have only been two players in the past ten years who clearly distanced themselves from all pretenders and contenders and were without doubt the best player available for their respective draft year. Certain players may indeed overtake Stamkos but Hayes is such a long shot it is almost comical to think that he will....and that is what Cdnhky is talking about.

You have your opinion and that’s fine but what are you exactly basing your opinion on????

 

[AmericanDream]

I dont want to turn this into a Stamkos/Tavares thread, but you're really going a bit too far. Tavares isn't anything like a "once in a decade prospect", atleast not in my mind, considering he's nothing close two atleast two prospects from this decade, and on the same level with 3 or 4 others, Kovalchuk, Heatley and Spezza off the top of my head. the whole Tavares-hype machine is so ridicously out of control, it's not even funny, considering at best I'd peg him to be a Dany Heatley clone.

It's easy to look at their stat sheets (not to say you are just doing this, just in general) and see at the same age Tavares has 50 more points, or whatever it was, put watching them play all season, Stamkos has what it takes to be just as good, if not better at the next level.

if you're going to compare the two, in skating/explosiveness, stickhandling and play off the puck, it's Stamkos in a landslide. it's not even a competition in those areas. playmaking, and general offensive awareness would be Tavares, and goal scoring is the only place Tavares easily wins. out of 10 if you want to rate them in goal scoring, its 9 for Stamkos, and 13 for Tavares. All round Stamkos is the better player, and his offence isn't a big enough step below Tavares' to say he's nowhere near as good as him.

hahahaha. man o man. I am not even going to get started into this one. Not saying Tavares is Crosby, but he is the closest thing to it by a mile. If you think Tavares is hyped up, then I would make that your own thread and see how it goes. I am done arguing about Stamkos and Hayes, because there is no point anymore. Hayes will challenge Stamkos for #1 eventhough you think its comical VOB.

 

[AmericanDream]

Using your criteria then, I can safely say that a player like James Livingston (good size, mean aggressive player who has skills as well) will be the best forward prospect next year....if you don't like him well then let me pull another one out my hat because what you are talking about here are "ifs', "maybes" and "who's to say" and nothing more.

We can spin our wheels all day long talking about potential and what might happen if such and such occurs or we can simply look at the players in question, see what they have done, what they already possess and how they are progressing and make a determination from there.

Yes some anointed players like Esposito and Kessel fall to the wayside but if you go back, even on this board, you will see that some of us ignored the hype on both of these players (yes I was one) and stated that they have some major flaws the could potentially knock them out of the top spot (heck I said last year that Espo would be lucky to be a top five pick this year) and that is what happened.

In regards to Stamkos, yes he is not infallible but lets be honest here; there have only been two players in the past ten years who clearly distanced themselves from all pretenders and contenders and were without doubt the best player available for their respective draft year. Certain players may indeed overtake Stamkos but Hayes is such a long shot it is almost comical to think that he will....and that is what Cdnhky is talking about.

You have your opinion and that’s fine but what are you exactly basing your opinion on????

I guess I base my opinion on talk to me next year when Stamkos doesnt get picked #1 and Hayes gets drafted ahead of him. Good luck to you and Mr. Stamkos.

 

[VOB]

I guess I base my opinion on talk to me next year when Stamkos doesnt get picked #1 and Hayes gets drafted ahead of him. Good luck to you and Mr. Stamkos.

So your opinion is based on speculation then and nothing more?

 

[cdnhky1]

So your opinion is based on speculation then and nothing more?

It's not based purely on speculation. It's based primarily on the fact that Hayes is an American, Stamkos is a Canadian and AmericanDreamer needs an American to be picked first. If it was based on rational, objective thought AmericanDreamer would have chosen Kyle Beach to be the power forward with the most potential to surpass Stamkos because, like Stamkos, he's also better than Hayes. Of course, there's nothing rational or objective about the way AmericanDreamer thinks. He's really not interested how good a player is today and how much better they might be in the future. The only criterion that truly matters to him is where a player is born and Hayes just happens to fit the qualifications, so he's the man.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

It's not based purely on speculation. It's based primarily on the fact that Hayes is an American, Stamkos is a Canadian and AmericanDreamer needs an American to be picked first. If it was based on rational, objective thought AmericanDreamer would have chosen Kyle Beach to be the power forward with the most potential to surpass Stamkos because, like Stamkos, he's also better than Hayes. Of course, there's nothing rational or objective about the way AmericanDreamer thinks. He's really not interested how good a player is today and how much better they might be in the future. The only criterion that truly matters to him is where a player is born and Hayes just happens to fit the qualifications, so he's the man.

I think it's a bit presumptuous to say that this discussion is based soley on nationality. Frankly, I'm pretty confident AmericanDream is much more familiar with Stamkos than you are of Hayes, so who's really approaching this "debate" with ignorance? For some reason, you seem incapable of acknowledging that a lot can happen in one year's time, which is an eternity when it comes to evaluating prospects.

 

[cdnhky1]

I think it's a bit presumptuous to say that this discussion is based soley on nationality. Frankly, I'm pretty confident AmericanDream is much more familiar with Stamkos than you are of Hayes, so who's really approaching this "debate" with ignorance? For some reason, you seem incapable of acknowledging that a lot can happen in one year's time, which is an eternity when it comes to evaluating prospects.

I fully understand that a great deal can happen in the course of a year. That is why I suggested in an earlier post that if anyone was going to surpass Stamkos it was most likely to be Doughty or Pietrangelo. I've seen both Stamkos and Hayes play on numerous occasions dating back several years. That is precisely why I don't get the choice of Hayes because he's no where near the player Stamkos is, and there are several other players who are better than Hayes who have a much better opportunity to challenge Stamkos for the top spot, as I suggested earlier.

 

[thomasincanada]

I dont want to turn this into a Stamkos/Tavares thread, but you're really going a bit too far. Tavares isn't anything like a "once in a decade prospect", atleast not in my mind, considering he's nothing close two atleast two prospects from this decade, and on the same level with 3 or 4 others, Kovalchuk, Heatley and Spezza off the top of my head. the whole Tavares-hype machine is so ridicously out of control, it's not even funny, considering at best I'd peg him to be a Dany Heatley clone.

You are right in that young players do tend to get hyped out of control. I do agree that Tavares isn't Crosby. Beyond that though I'd say he has the potential to be better than pretty much everyone else that's been drafted in the last 10 years.

It's just potential at this point, for sure, but you saying he's Dany Heatley at best makes me think you've either never seen him play or don't realize just what he is doing at his age. This guy could be like Bossy if he continues to progress the way he has so far. And for all the young guys reading these threads... Bossy >>>>>>>> Heatley

 

[scoutman1]

Hey, I simply haven't seen enough of Stamkos to buy into everything right now. I've seen a lot of Hayes and the kid looks fantastic. I'll probably have a completely different opinion next summer, though, as a full year sees a lot happen.

well I was suspect on Stamkos TILL is seen him play live, the kid is just amazing, I have never seen such an accurate one-timer, he seems to just place them top shelf all the time, his shooting skills and accuracy are elite, and controls the play out there, he makes others around him better as well, the guy is in my books 1st overall material, I have seen Hayes live for 4 games, what I seen I would not take him over Stamkos or Doughty, myself by next year I think Patrice Cormier will be in the running for top 5 in the draft, Hayes though is great himself and will be a top 5 pick IMO if he contineus to grow, but Stamkos is in another league. Hard to impress me now to since for years I watched Sidney Crosby play Midget AAA (every game actually that Dartmouth played that year), Canada Winter Games and for Rimouski all the time, but Stamkos impressed me alot.

 

[Redwingsfan]

You are right in that young players do tend to get hyped out of control. I do agree that Tavares isn't Crosby. Beyond that though I'd say he has the potential to be better than pretty much everyone else that's been drafted in the last 10 years.

It's just potential at this point, for sure, but you saying he's Dany Heatley at best makes me think you've either never seen him play or don't realize just what he is doing at his age. This guy could be like Bossy if he continues to progress the way he has so far. And for all the young guys reading these threads... Bossy >>>>>>>> Heatley

going of topic here. i dont know much about mike bossy. i just looked at he's stats and saw he retired at age 30. do you know why??

 

[thomasincanada]

going of topic here. i dont know much about mike bossy. i just looked at he's stats and saw he retired at age 30. do you know why??

Chronic back problems or something along those lines. Impressive stats, though, eh?

 

[Redwingsfan]

Chronic back problems or something along those lines. Impressive stats, though, eh?

ok. that sucks.

yes. he's stats are amazing.

one more thing i just noticed. do you know why he wasnt drafted until he was 20?? he had 86 goals and 149 points in the Q in he's draft year, but didnt get picked.

edit: i just noticed everyone was 20 when they where drafted back then. i did not know that that you had to be 20 to be drafted before.

 

[AmericanDream]

So your opinion is based on speculation then and nothing more?

it would be sarcasm. I base my opinion on the kids NHL ready size, his NHL ready shot, his very good speed, and his NHL ready hands. Maybe he didnt put up "the number" that you wanted to see at the U-18 tourney, but 1 tournament does not make a player. His stats were as good as JVR's this year, and he had a great year. Did Stamkos lead the OHL in scoring? Not even close. Stats at this age does not tell the entire story for these kids.