GDT: Hawks vs Sabres: 7:30PM CT on NBCSCH -- The Buffalo Herder

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CallMeShaft

Calder Bedard Fan
Apr 14, 2014
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Correct me if I'm wrong JD, but hasn't the team been giving up less shots per game in the last few weeks. I know that the first month and a half or so of the season the Hawks were giving up 30+ shots a night, but I swear that number has had a noticeable drop since the Forsling/Rutta pairing became our shutdown pair and Seabrook started playing under 20mins a night (I know he had more last night, but that has a bit to do with Franson's injury).

I could be wrong, I don't check every single game, but it feels like the team has quietly improved in that aspect and that chart would then be eschewed a bit because of the team's performance in October and early November.

EDIT:
Shots per game for last 10 games(Hawks on left)
51 28
39 25
25 24
34 35
22 35
39 31
35 29
39 38
31 38
38 36

Looks like the team has gotten a little bit better. Had one really bad game against Dallas (22-35), but Hawks seem to be doing a little better with shot suppression over the last week or so.
 
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Blackhawkswincup

RIP Fugu
Jun 24, 2007
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And the LA Kings, with a new coach, are suddenly cashing in on the possession numbers they've been putting up forever... Strange how that works. Almost like shot volume isn't the end-all-be-all of hockey, and you need to find a system that generates quality scoring chances, and not just shots on goal from anywhere.

The Hawks have been awful the last 10 games, and Corsi says they are killing it... lol

New GM and Coach

Why do you continue to bring up Pens/Kings coaching changes and ignore the other half of equation?

osterle over kempny, Gustafson, pokka or snugg is a freaking travesty imo.

Why the hell do mcd and Stan have q around still?

The players clearly don't buy what q is saying, this is just delaying possible progress

You realize it was Bowman who brought in Osterle ,, Correct?

So how would Bowman have grounds to complain that Q is playing his FA signing?
 

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,117
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Correct me if I'm wrong JD, but hasn't the team been giving up less shots per game in the last few weeks. I know that the first month and a half or so of the season the Hawks were giving up 30+ shots a night, but I swear that number has had a noticeable drop since the Forsling/Rutta pairing became our shutdown pair and Seabrook started playing under 20mins a night (I know he had more last night, but that has a bit to do with Franson's injury).

I could be wrong, I don't check every single game, but it feels like the team has quietly improved in that aspect and that chart would then be eschewed a bit because of the team's performance in October and early November.

They've definitely been better the last 10 games defensively. They are trending in the right direction in that regard. The caveat being that a 10 game sample size is small enough for quality of competition to skew things. For example, Pittsburgh still has a lot of talent, but they haven't played consistently well... were they playing well when we played them? Did they play well in that game? Likewise for Dallas. Tampa you know it was a high qoc game. Florida not so much. Over 20 games or so that tends to even out, you catch enough good teams (on both hot streaks and cold streaks) and bad teams (likewise), that it comes out in the wash.

I choose to look at it as a reason to be hopeful though. :)

Oct4-Nov17
60.85 CA/60 (27th)
34.71 SA/60 (31st)
2.72 xGA.60 (29th)

Nov18-Dec8 (Last 10 games)
51.97 CA/60 (6th)
29.36 SA/60 (10th)
2.15 xGA/60 (10th)
 
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CallMeShaft

Calder Bedard Fan
Apr 14, 2014
15,854
21,413
They've definitely been better the last 10 games defensively. They are trending in the right direction in that regard. The caveat being that a 10 game sample size is small enough for quality of competition to skew things. For example, Pittsburgh still has a lot of talent, but they haven't played consistently well... were they playing well when we played them? Did they play well in that game? Likewise for Dallas. Tampa you know it was a high qoc game. Florida not so much. Over 20 games or so that tends to even out, you catch enough good teams (on both hot streaks and cold streaks) and bad teams (likewise), that it comes out in the wash.

I choose to look at it as a reason to be hopeful though. :)

Oct4-Nov17
60.85 CA/60 (27th)
34.71 SA/60 (31st)
2.72 xGA.60 (29th)

Nov18-Dec8 (Last 10 games)
51.97 CA/60 (6th)
29.36 SA/60 (10th)
2.15 xGA/60 (10th)
Thanks. Yeah I'm somewhat leery myself in believing that our defense has indeed gotten better (like you said, small sample size), but at the same time, it'd make sense.

We started the year with Forsling (who played most of last season in Rockford), Rutta (who had never played in North America until this season), and Murphy and Franson (both coming from different organizations). A lot of the time, when teams swap out half of their defense, it takes a while to steady out (especially when dealing with inexperienced players). That's what I'm hoping is the case here.
 

LDF

Registered User
Sep 28, 2016
11,778
1,172
I'm blaming whoever joked about Osterle coming in instead of Kempny.



I don't even have words :facepalm:

i could have sworn some other post, and not I, recommended that like up. i think or close to it.
 

LDF

Registered User
Sep 28, 2016
11,778
1,172
Dammit ClydeLee!

This **** is ridiculous. Even if someone hates Kempny, how can you think Oesterle has shown enough of anything to get in over him. Q's gonna Q is all I can unfortunately say.
at least Franson is out.
 

Fortyfives

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Looking at this it seems like the hawks are close to being above average its just they need to hit the back of net. Either through special teams or Kane finally getting back to his old self. In my opinion the kids are starting to grow and get it. Its the stars that need to break out.

Toews is what he is at this point; a ~60 point possession driving center.
 

LDF

Registered User
Sep 28, 2016
11,778
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Yay ... the Hawks barely came back to beat a terrible team in OT at home. I'm trying to stay positive. It ain't easy.
very true, but i was looking at the positives. the Bhawks didn't loose and these are steps in the right direction. eventually Q is coming around to some positive ideas that may work and hang up his old gameplan.
 

Pez68

Registered User
Mar 18, 2010
18,487
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Chicago, IL
Two things here.

1) Corsi (possession) isn't the be all and end all, but it is very important and very predictive. It's not a 1:1 correlation for success, but it's the most repeatable, sustainable and consistent predictor of all the many variables that impact hockey. Though it is getting less predictive as more and more teams adopt philosophies and systems that emphasize possession, as the range in possession within the league is 'crushing' at both ends towards the 50% mark.

Moreover, the idea that the Blackhawks aren't generating chances is simply inaccurate. In the same time frame (last 10 games) they're 7th in the league in scoring chance share and 6th in the league as far as raw scoring chances generated. As far as strictly high-danger scoring chances (the slot), they drop a bit to 9th in share, and 8th in raw high-danger scoring chances generated (numbers from naturalstattrick.com).

xGF, which wraps attempts, shots, and chances together, weighted by aggregate shooting percentage per distance and angle the shot was taken (among other factors), puts the Blackhawks at 5th best in the league over that time (numbers from corsica.hockey).

In that time, they're 21st in the league in sh%.

The idea that the Blackhawks haven't been getting quality opportunities simply isn't true. They have been, they just haven't been burying them. By both quantity and quality, they've been playing well in the ozone, at least.

And then there's the bigger problem. The Blackhawks are winning the battle as far as possession and chance share, but they are still giving up a ton. They're a high-event team (tons of shots going both ways), and high event teams are rarely successful. History shows you can't win consistently simply by trying to out-generate what a ****ty defense allows on net. You need to suppress. And the Blackhawks can't. In the same 10 game time frame they are 24th in the league for shots allowed.

So yes, they're coming out on top in terms of shares and generating a ton, but they're doing it the wrong way, or at least, the less historically efficient and successful way. As far as success, you'd FAR prefer a team that generates less but allows even less against than a team that allows a ton again and generates even more themselves. Ideally, you'd be the 2013 Blackhawks, and generate a **** ton while giving your opponents almost nothing, but hey, not every team gets to be the best team of the last 10 years.

This is all 5v5 of course. We all know their PP is a tire-fire and is costing them games in a year where a higher number of PPs than average are being called per game.

This isn't going to assuage any frustrations, obviously. Nobody likes to hear 'hey, the sport you love is disproportionately impacted by random chance, and sometimes that chance bites you in the ass instead of helping over the hump'. (like it did last year for the Blackhawks). And obviously it doesn't magically erase the reality that they have 82 games to make the playoffs, they need more scoring and they're running out of runway. But it is what it is. That's hockey.


2) As far as the Kings are concerned, yes the new coaching staff updated the system that Sutter had in place. We know what the changes are, because they told the world the moment the coaching change was made. They've given their D the green-light to skate the puck out and join the rush more aggressively, and they've tried to create passes off the walls into the slot more often.

It would be ****ing great if the Blackhawks did the former, and they already to the latter a ton.

The Kings are scoring more because their top line is shooting the lights out. Nobody else on the team is really producing above the rates they were under Sutter. The vaunted coaching change has done basically nothing for lines 2-4, or any of their Dmen. All of them have roughly the same sh% as their career average and are roughly on pace for their normal production. Almost as if it's not a system impact at all, but rather some well-timed luck.

The boon has come particularly from Kopitar, who started the season shooting 25%, is currently at 20%, almost double his career average of 12.5%. If you believe that's entirely systems driven, that's fine, but I find it hard to believe that Kopitar has secretly actually been twice the finisher that Alexander Ovechkin is (career sh% of 12) or better than Steven Stamkos (career sh% 17) all this time, and Sutter (and Murray before him) just kept him quiet.... or that the benefits of the new system are exclusive to him while the rest of the team are unimpacted.

More likely, he's just insanely hot.

Likewise, Dustin Brown started at 20%, he's cooled down to 15%, that's still 6% better than his career average, he'll probably continue cooling as the season progresses... unless you think a more active D and more passes to the slot are the key to making Dustin Brown a better finisher than Patrick Kane has been at any point in his career (EDIT: Kane actually hit 16% sh% in the 2013 48-game season. My bad. So he was a better finisher once than Dustin Brown is currently.).

Can they keep it up? We shall see. But I wouldn't bet on teams riding a single line with a hot sh% and great goaltending. We all learned that first hand in 2016.

That's all swell, but you realize, you just regurgitate the same thing every time someone questions the holy grail, right? I've read all of this from you before. And it's still wrong.

I've played and watched hockey long enough to know that simply generating shots is not sufficient. You know why some guys have a higher shooting percentage than others? Because they are in the right place to score goals. Because they have a better release than other players. Because they hit a corner, instead of hitting the goalie in the chest... Because they are what we call "goal scorers". Of course, you're going to go back to the argument of "the variance in shooting percentages between players is minuscule...blah blah blah" as some kind of support for your ridiculous argument that a shot is a shot is a shot. It's not. It never has been. It never will be.

Of course there is an element of random chance in hockey. There always will be. But throwing pucks on net is never, ever going to be a better recipe for success than throwing THE RIGHT PUCKS on net.

What is the definition of a "scoring chance"? How about a "high-danger scoring chance"?
 
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Blackhawks

Registered User
Jul 25, 2007
5,679
1,137
Correct me if I'm wrong JD, but hasn't the team been giving up less shots per game in the last few weeks. I know that the first month and a half or so of the season the Hawks were giving up 30+ shots a night, but I swear that number has had a noticeable drop since the Forsling/Rutta pairing became our shutdown pair and Seabrook started playing under 20mins a night (I know he had more last night, but that has a bit to do with Franson's injury).

I could be wrong, I don't check every single game, but it feels like the team has quietly improved in that aspect and that chart would then be eschewed a bit because of the team's performance in October and early November.

EDIT:
Shots per game for last 10 games(Hawks on left)
51 28
39 25
25 24
34 35
22 35
39 31
35 29
39 38
31 38
38 36

Looks like the team has gotten a little bit better. Had one really bad game against Dallas (22-35), but Hawks seem to be doing a little better with shot suppression over the last week or so.


Now why dont you post the scoring chances to show how embarrassingly weak most of those shots are
 

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,117
9,339
Now why dont you post the scoring chances to show how embarrassingly weak most of those shots are

Already posted.

In the same time frame (last 10 games) they're 7th in the league in scoring chance share and 6th in the league as far as raw scoring chances generated. As far as strictly high-danger scoring chances (the slot), they drop a bit to 9th in share, and 8th in raw high-danger scoring chances generated (numbers from naturalstattrick.com).

They've been generating scoring chances very well.
 

Blackhawks

Registered User
Jul 25, 2007
5,679
1,137
Already posted.



They've been generating scoring chances very well.


Then I must be losing my mind because watching these games is soooo grueling and boring due lack of intensity, playing too much in the D zone and when having the puck in the O zone there is hardly any complete control of it and players just want to pass it away or shoot at the net from non threatening positions leading to one and done...
 

CallMeShaft

Calder Bedard Fan
Apr 14, 2014
15,854
21,413
Then I must be losing my mind because watching these games is soooo grueling and boring due lack of intensity, playing too much in the D zone and when having the puck in the O zone there is hardly any complete control of it and players just want to pass it away or shoot at the net from non threatening positions leading to one and done...
Crazy idea, but why watch the Hawks if you find them so boring? You do realize there are 30 other teams, all more than happy, I'm sure, to increase their fanbase.

HF does allow you to change your username once every 365 days, so don't let that stop you from enjoying yourself with entertaining hockey.
 

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,117
9,339
Crazy idea, but why watch the Hawks if you find them so boring? You do realize there are 30 other teams, all more than happy, I'm sure, to increase their fanbase.

HF does allow you to change your username once every 365 days, so don't let that stop you from enjoying yourself with entertaining hockey.

Much as I disagree with most of what Blackhawks says, I think we all know thats not how fandom works.

Its not a logical cost/benefit analysis, you're stuck with it whether it hurts you or brings you joy. Its not something you trade in or turn off.
 

Blackhawks

Registered User
Jul 25, 2007
5,679
1,137
Crazy idea, but why watch the Hawks if you find them so boring? You do realize there are 30 other teams, all more than happy, I'm sure, to increase their fanbase.

HF does allow you to change your username once every 365 days, so don't let that stop you from enjoying yourself with entertaining hockey.


Its extremely laughable to suggest that any life long die hard fan can just change teams at will, I dont know where to begin with that one, oh but hey according you its as simple as "changing my username" LMAO

Also are you saying you never get bored with Hawks games? Dont you enjoy some games more than others? Is it not more fun to watch a team that does good than a team that does terrible? The lack of logic in what you said is mind blowing...
 

CallMeShaft

Calder Bedard Fan
Apr 14, 2014
15,854
21,413
Its extremely stupid for anyone to suggest that a life long die hard fan can just change teams, I dont know where to begin with that one, oh but hey according you its as simple as "changing my username" LMAO

Also are you saying you never get bored with Hawks games? Dont you enjoy some games more than others? Is it not more fun to watch a team that does good than a team that does terrible? The lack of logic in what you said is mind blowing...
I'm not always entertained by Hawks games, but I hardly ever think that the game is "soooo grueling and boring" to watch. I'm either entertained if it's a good game, or fuming with anger when the team is playing poorly. But either way, I'm pretty engaged in what I'm watching.

You complain about this team more than anybody. I want to believe that you're not a troll. You don't post quite like a troll. You post like someone who wants to care about this organization. But it's apparent with everything you write that something isn't right. So if the team is bringing you such dread, maybe it's best to distance yourself from them.

For example, I love rollercoasters, but sometimes when I'm feeling sick of them, I need to take a break. Maybe your just too sick of the rollercoaster that is this team and you need a break. Come back when the craving returns. But right now, watching the games seems to be doing you no favors if your comments throughout HF are any indication of how you really feel.
 

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,117
9,339
That's all swell, but you realize, you just regurgitate the same thing every time someone questions the holy grail, right? I've read all of this from you before. And it's still wrong.

I've played and watched hockey long enough to know that simply generating shots is not sufficient. You know why some guys have a higher shooting percentage than others? Because they are in the right place to score goals. Because they have a better release than other players. Because they hit a corner, instead of hitting the goalie in the chest... Because they are what we call "goal scorers". Of course, you're going to go back to the argument of "the variance in shooting percentages between players is minuscule...blah blah blah" as some kind of support for your ridiculous argument that a shot is a shot is a shot. It's not. It never has been. It never will be.

Of course there is an element of random chance in hockey. There always will be. But throwing pucks on net is never, ever going to be a better recipe for success than throwing THE RIGHT PUCKS on net.

What is the definition of a "scoring chance"? How about a "high-danger scoring chance"?


1) Nobody has ever argued against the idea that some players are simple better shooters than other players and therefore have higher shooting percentages. That's patently obvious.

The issue is when a player's shooting percentage deviates significantly from his own baseline or career average. That's when we know they're either unsustainably lucky/hot, or unsustainable unlucky/cold.

Different shots from different locations (like scoring chances or high danger scoring chances) do come with higher sh%, absolutely. But a player can still shoot 5-10% higher or 5-10% lower than what they usually shoot from those locations, just as they can from low danger areas. They can't control that variability.


2) You're over simplifying the 'a shot is a shot is a shot' argument.

The 'a shot is a shot is a shot' argument comes from the repeatably observed fact that over the course of large samples, a team will score roughly as many goals off of 'low danger' or 'perimeter' shots as they will 'high danger' shots or 'scoring chances'. The reason for this is rather simple.... high danger shots and scoring chances happen significantly less frequently than 'low danger' shots. They're hard to create. So it may take many more shots to score off low danger chances, but the raw volume advantage evens out the gains that high danger shots or scoring chances provide as far as success rate.

From a historical and practical perspective, the teams that pour rubber onto the opposing net at a high rate, indiscriminate of 'quality', generally have greater success than those that pass around looking for high quality and getting relatively few chances off. That's obviously not 100% the case across the board, every season, but it's a pretty clear, repeated trend.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to create high-danger chances. You absolutely should when you can. You just can't always be looking for high danger scoring chances, especially when a shot on net is the best option and you're an at least competent possession team that can probably get the puck back and generate more shots.

Of course, this obviously requires that you also prevent the other team from putting even more rubber towards your own net. The power of volume works both ways.

It's obviously possible that the hypothetical team that eschews volume in pursuit of quality could find sustainable, repeatable success. It just hasn't happened yet.



3) As far as how scoring chances and high-danger scoring chances are defined, it's been an evolution. Currently, it's dictated by aggregate sh% variance across factors.

Over the course of a season (and their careers), players take a ton of shots. In certain scenarios, their sh% consistently sees an increase or a decrease from their overall sh% baseline.

Factors include:

  • Shot type (Wrist shot, slap shot, deflection, etc.)
  • Shot distance (Distance from net)
  • Shot angle (Angle in absolute degrees from the central line normal to the goal line)
  • Rebounds (Whether or not the shot was a rebound)
  • Rush shots (Was the shot off the rush or off the cycle)
  • Strength state (5v5, PP, PK, etc)
  • On/Off wing

We aggregate the change that players see as a result of all combinations of these factors, and then we get an idea of how much more dangerous any given shot is, or at least, how much higher or lower the percentage chance is that a player scores under such circumstance vs their overall career baseline sh%.



For example, here's a heatmap demonstrating the relative danger based on distance and angle (the two are tied at the hip, given the location of the net will force changes to angle based on distance away).

dzones2.jpeg



As stated earlier, a player's sh% under these circumstances varies. Over a large sample, a clear sh% range scoring chances and high-danger chances appears, but players can move out of this range at various times. A player that normally shoots say 15% better from high danger areas compared to the rest of the ice, might go through stretches where they only shot 2% better, and stretches where they shoot 30% better, for example. It's not controllable obviously, so we know when we see this, or we see the impact it has on their overall sh% as a whole, that it's either an unsustainably hot or unsustainably cold player that will regress toward their norms eventually.



For the record, all of this is fed into the xG model that provides the numbers for xG , xGA, xGF%, which have all proven more predictive of future goal scoring than current goal scoring.

Perfect? No.

Useful and predictive? Yas.
 
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Enyaw

The names ... Wayne
Jan 17, 2014
1,492
356
So the Hawks beat the worst team in hockey at home in OT

G - JUZ ........ talk about NOT sucking
 
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