OT: has this team ever been the same since the 09 SCF loss?

TheMoreYouKnow

Registered User
May 3, 2007
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I do believe the decision Franzen over Hossa set the tone and will be one to be regretted for a long time.

Hossa will go down as the player with the much better career and far more talent and essentially when it comes down to it the decision for Franzen was based on his 08 playoff and Holland's preference for proven Wings over outsiders - and not an objective assessment of their quality.
 

Reality Check

Registered User
May 28, 2008
16,696
2,459
Hossa also went with a younger, better situation. I can't blame Holland for that one.

Franzen is just beyond frustrating. But his contract still makes me hesitant to move him. Even now.

Oh well...could be worse for Detroit. You could be St. Louis right now.
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,212
4,423
Boston, MA
Dude, that 2009 was beat to hell by the Ducks and Blackhawks.

Lidstrom had friggin testicle surgery, Datsyuk was wrecked, Rafalski could barely skate.

It hurt like hell that they lost that year, but I wouldn't call them chokers. Well besides Hossa...


It's true the team's stars have never stayed healthy since 2008 though.

Hossa had to have shoulder surgery after the season that kept him out for first few months of the following season. Not really a choker when play with one shoulder.
 

RedHawkDown

still trying to trust the yzerplan
Aug 26, 2011
4,358
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Canada
I absolutely hate hearing, "they just need more experience, they'll be ready in a few years, growing pains." Absolute bulls***.

What about Krug? What about Hamilton? What about Riley Smith? How come they don't need "just a bit more experience". These guys have just as much experience as our young guys and absolutely destroyed them.

It's not experience, it's talent and our team has very little. This is all Holland.

Reilly Smith didn't do much this series, and Brendan was by far one of our best players.

Hamilton was a healthy scratch in last years playoffs and looked out of place at times, he learned and now he's great.

Krug is the only one on that team who stepped in as a rookie and dominated. Not to mention the team around him is world-class.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,017
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maybe his injury got worse

Maybe it didn't.

He scored fewer goals in 2010 than he did the year he played through the shoulder injury.

I wouldn't call him a choker either, but I saying "it was his shoulder" is ignoring the fact he had that injury and scored more with it than he did the next playoff year.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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No. We played physical game back then and now this team is the softest in the NHL.
We were a little bit more physical but A LOT more skilled. Samuelsson was at his best, Filppula and Hudler were good, Lidstrom and Rafalski were godly, Franzen was on fire and Holmstrom was still the best at his thing. None of them were very physical players. The good thing is we have young players that look to match or exceed the play of those forwards, but unless we pull a miracle we're not going to have a defense like that anytime soon.
 

VladTheImpaler

Go Wings
Feb 27, 2012
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Does anyone else not think that Hossa over Franzen in the Boston series makes a big difference? Granted, our problem against Boston was us spending too much time in our zone, along with sloppy breakouts, which can largely be attributed to our crappy defense. But still, Hossa's speed, skill and two-way game would've made us more competitive against the Bruins.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
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Does anyone else not think that Hossa over Franzen in the Boston series makes a big difference? Granted, our problem against Boston was us spending too much time in our zone, along with sloppy breakouts, which can largely be attributed to our crappy defense. But still, Hossa's speed, skill and two-way game would've made us more competitive against the Bruins.

He's a better hockey player, so theoretically he would.

But he hasn't been on our team in 5 years, so who cares.
 

Yemack

Registered User
Oct 30, 2007
8,246
5
you guys know it was strictly for cap reason that we couldnt go for Hossa right?

Wings were in a cap hell in 2009 and there was no way no how we could fit Hossa into our roster.

Hell we had to sign Franzen for life just to have him fit in. which I critizies heavily and continued to do so for few years. and I remember very well I got alot of flacks for it.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,017
11,677
Does anyone else not think that Hossa over Franzen in the Boston series makes a big difference? Granted, our problem against Boston was us spending too much time in our zone, along with sloppy breakouts, which can largely be attributed to our crappy defense. But still, Hossa's speed, skill and two-way game would've made us more competitive against the Bruins.

Still wouldn't have won.

Dear lord we need to just get over Hossa. It's been five freaking years.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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Still wouldn't have won.

Dear lord we need to just get over Hossa. It's been five freaking years.
This. It's amazing how hung up people are on Franzen vs. Hossa. No one ever stops to consider that maybe Hossa didn't want to sign a long-term deal with the wings. Maybe he felt his best opportunity to be on a cup contender for the rest of his career was with Chicago. It's not as simple as Holland choosing Mule over Hossa.
 

DregerFan

Registered User
Jul 4, 2007
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The real question is, "What this team better with Norris level Lidstrom and prime Zetterberg and Datsyuk?"

Uhh, yeah. It was a little better.

i don't think this series can be pinned on defense as much as it was the lack of real push.

i saw it at times where they dominated, but even when they had possession they couldn't get good shots on net. they were missing the net. i agree with what someone else said about the team looking tired. i think danny dekeyser was more gassed than kimbo slice.

i am optimistic this was a great learning experience. i realize half of our team is young so imma chalk up the mildly-submediocre performances to it.
 

crashman

Guest
Not to get all dramatic, but I remember standing in the stands of JLA right after that game 7 loss to Pitt and knowing that I just witnessed the end of the Red Wings era of domination.

Obviously, I still love watching the team, but with Lidstrom, Holmstom, Draper all gone, the team had definitely lost it's majesty for me. I love watching Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, and Helm, but it'll never be the same for me. I'm sure it's just because I'm getting old, but with every passing year the team seems less and less special, and more like any other team in the NHL.
 

Roy S

Registered User
May 16, 2009
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I do believe the decision Franzen over Hossa set the tone and will be one to be regretted for a long time.

Hossa will go down as the player with the much better career and far more talent and essentially when it comes down to it the decision for Franzen was based on his 08 playoff and Holland's preference for proven Wings over outsiders - and not an objective assessment of their quality.

That's a false dilemma fallacy b/c they could have kept both Franzen and Hossa and then moved other players to make it work cap wise if Hossa indeed wanted to come back. There is also the additional option that Hossa didn't want to come back and thought he had a better chance to win Cups with the Hawks.

Hossa was a free agent and was offered a contract by the Wings. Why wouldn't he go to an up and coming team with in their prime stars and core players like Kane, Toews, Keith and Seabrook rather than stay with an aging core of Z, D, Lidstrom and Rafalski? If the goal was to win Stanley Cups over the duration of a long deal, then his choice was pretty easy. I don't know why its assumed that he was automatically coming back and Holland chose one player over another while ignoring the other possibility that Hossa just wanted to leave. As he did the year before with Pittsburgh.

Nobody really knows what happened even though its often presented by some fans as if they knew the inner workings of Holland and Hossa's thought processes in 2009. However, presenting it as a simplistic Franzen vs Hossa decision and ignoring other variables has always been a fallacy b/c: (1) Hossa was reportedly offered a contract after Franzen was signed; (2) there were always options to make both work cap wise if Holland needed too and (3) it also ignores the fact that Hossa was a free agent and could have simply decided that Chicago was a better career move.
 
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Brick Top

LANA!!!!!
Mar 2, 2012
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0
Grand Rapids
This. It's amazing how hung up people are on Franzen vs. Hossa. No one ever stops to consider that maybe Hossa didn't want to sign a long-term deal with the wings. Maybe he felt his best opportunity to be on a cup contender for the rest of his career was with Chicago. It's not as simple as Holland choosing Mule over Hossa.

Can't argue that he made the right call there. He's been a key member of 2 Cup winners since he left the Wings while Detroit has managed all of 3 PO series wins since he left.

Not saying that his absence is the sole reason the Wings haven't been better in the PO's (looking at you, increasingly poor defense corps), but he clearly made the best decision for his career by moving on to Chicago.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

Registered User
May 3, 2007
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38° N 77° W
(1) Hossa was reportedly offered a contract after Franzen was signed; (2) there were always options to make both work cap wise if Holland needed too and (3) it also ignores the fact that Hossa was a free agent and could have simply decided that Chicago was a better career move.

The Franzen contract limited what they could offer Hossa quite dramatically. While there were moves to be made to still make it work it would have required an uncharacteristic aggressiveness and flexibility from Holland. And of course Hossa could have simply chosen Chicago but the reality is that the Wings' offer wasn't really that good and if I was in Hossa's shoes I wouldn't have taken it either.
 

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