Has Quebec City been priced out of the NHL?

[zetajerk]

You have clearly never been to Quebec City. It's not like Montreal-Ottawa where Montreal fans dominate the crowd. Quebec and Montreal are rivals like Edmonton-Calgary, a provincial capital and a corporate one. Or Philly-Pittsburgh, a colonial city, vs a steel city. Not like Tampa-Florida. A rivalry built on passion, with passionate hockey fans, the same ones who filled the Isles rink not too long ago to prove a point.

And all those proper markets have had pro hockey for far longer than Tampa and Florida, long enough to build rivalries, even. They've also been good at the same time and met each other in the playoffs, which is known to build rivalries.

 

[The CyNick]

Seattle is going to be great for NHL. It's long overdue.

But look at the revenues the NBA is generating. They have Minnesota and OKC in the same division as Portland. Chicago with Detroit. Doesn't seem to be hurting the bottom line. The league keeps growing. And growing.

Keeping Eastern time zone teams together is great for Pittsburgh, who never leaves their time zone once until the Finals, tidily arranged.

But fans, they aren't that important, that's the message. Buttman threatens Calagary, because they "are cutting the cheques." Revenues are falling there. Who cares if the bulk of those cheques come off the Canadian TV deal, and 3 of the 6 richest franchises being in Canada? The fans don't matter. Hockey needs to sell itself to US TV networks. They are the ones who decide start times for playoff games. And so what if less Canadian teams make the playoffs, and fan interest drops without them. It doesn't matter. There's expansion to mask the money being bled. I mean what organization can prosper when the building is half full? If a Tim Horton's didn't gain its market share because it expanded to a place with no footing, would it prop that franchise up to keep its existing franchises in place. Not for too long if the losses were affecting the bottom line. But we all know that every time that a hockey fan from Montreal, Toronto, Boston, Chicago, New York attends a game or buys merchandise, that because of the NHL logo on it, they are supporting hockey in Florida. Or Arizona. Not their own team.

The NHL could make a Canadian division with Quebec, travelling all time zones, essentially guaranteeing than 1 of the final 4 teams comes from Canada. Would make money for the league. But must respect the Eastern time zone. The wall has been built, and America is great again, in a hockey sense. Is Detroit with a brand new arena, unfilled, still Hockeytown. More than Toronto and Montreal? The mirage is in the desert, behind the palm trees. And in Quebec, well you're too close to Montreal, too French, Jacobs can't make money off you. Anschultz can't manage your arena, so why go there. Not for the fans. They don't matter in the business.

The time zone thing is very logical. I used to hate having to stay up for Leafs games in Minnesota, St Louis, and Chicago. The current format is much better.

The business case for a new franchise probably works better in a market like Seattle than it does Quebec City. Bringing back the Nords likely won't drive additional viewers to CBC. Most likely people in Quebec City are already watching games. People in the Pacific Northwest likely are not. There is an untapped market there that the NHL is trying to sink it's teeth into.

 

[GordonGecko]

You have clearly never been to Quebec City. It's not like Montreal-Ottawa where Montreal fans dominate the crowd. Quebec and Montreal are rivals like Edmonton-Calgary, a provincial capital and a corporate one. Or Philly-Pittsburgh, a colonial city, vs a steel city. Not like Tampa-Florida. A rivalry built on passion, with passionate hockey fans, the same ones who filled the Isles rink not too long ago to prove a point.

Canadiens vs. Nordiques was most similar to Rangers vs. Islanders

It's regional big brother vs. small club with inferiority complex within that other team's market

 

[voyageur]

Canadiens vs. Nordiques was most similar to Rangers vs. Islanders

It's regional big brother vs. small club with inferiority complex within that other team's market

Not even close. Do you know about Beliveau story's choosing to stay as a semi pro with the Quebec Aces, forcing the Canadiens to buy the league he played, in to get him. Nordiques aren't in Montreal's shadow. They are the provincial capital, the francophone heart of the province. Montreal is an international city like New York, but at the worst Quebec is like Buffalo to New York, distinct, though in a more prestigious and historical way. The Isles were a team brought in to avoid WHA expansion into the city. Drafted well, traded well, while the Rangers were run rather poorly, which helped the Isles prominence. But they were always second fiddle, in reality. And when a 3rd team came to New York that was the beginning of the end.

Quebec brings about a whole different perspective. Most people in Quebec City are not Habs fans. They would rather cheer for Bergeron from Ancienne Lorette, a suburb, than for the Habs. Their fanbase would span north into the Saguenay, and all around the province, in anti-Montreal unity. Ottawa is more like the Isles in comparison.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Not even close. Do you know about Beliveau story's choosing to stay as a semi pro with the Quebec Aces, forcing the Canadiens to buy the league he played, in to get him. Nordiques aren't in Montreal's shadow. They are the provincial capital, the francophone heart of the province. Montreal is an international city like New York, but at the worst Quebec is like Buffalo to New York, distinct, though in a more prestigious and historical way. The Isles were a team brought in to avoid WHA expansion into the city. Drafted well, traded well, while the Rangers were run rather poorly, which helped the Isles prominence. But they were always second fiddle, in reality. And when a 3rd team came to New York that was the beginning of the end.

Quebec brings about a whole different perspective. Most people in Quebec City are not Habs fans. They would rather cheer for Bergeron from Ancienne Lorette, a suburb, than for the Habs. Their fanbase would span north into the Saguenay, and all around the province, in anti-Montreal unity. Ottawa is more like the Isles in comparison.

Why is the Canadiens affiliation back in Quebec, in Laval, of all places after being shunned by Quebec City, voyageur, the three seasons the Citadelles were there they were ignored, much as if a Junior team kept getting pushed in Montreal was virtually ignored because MTL is Canadiens central, or centric... when the original Rocket were there you could find them buried on page 8, if mentioned at all

 

[voyageur]

Why is the Canadiens affiliation back in Quebec, in Laval, of all places after being shunned by Quebec City, voyageur, the three seasons the Citadelles were there they were ignored, much as if a Junior team kept getting pushed in Montreal was virtually ignored because MTL is Canadiens central, or centric... when the original Rocket were there you could find them buried on page 8, if mentioned at all

Again Quebec has no interest in Montreal. They are distinct cities. They have strong provincial rivalries at the university level, and in general. If the Flames moved, the Oilers would not do well putting a farm team there. Much like Hartford the AHL has not produced much interest. Remparts are among the best CHL attendances, well ahead of Seattle, that's a better sign of hockey interest.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Again Quebec has no interest in Montreal. They are distinct cities. They have strong provincial rivalries at the university level, and in general. If the Flames moved, the Oilers would not do well putting a farm team there. Much like Hartford the AHL has not produced much interest. Remparts are among the best CHL attendances, well ahead of Seattle, that's a better sign of hockey interest.

Hartford has done well, sorry, 21 years + and at least 3 more past this season...

 

[Killion]

Why is the Canadiens affiliation back in Quebec, in Laval, of all places after being shunned by Quebec City, voyageur, the three seasons the Citadelles were there they were ignored, much as if a Junior team kept getting pushed in Montreal was virtually ignored because MTL is Canadiens central, or centric... when the original Rocket were there you could find them buried on page 8, if mentioned at all

The Canadiens have been toying with the idea of bringing there AHL farm club close to or in Montreal, including looking at Laval as a possible site since the 90's CH. The reasons for doing so are many, obvious. Montreal also owns, has a division called Evenko, concerts, events, consumer & trade shows etc, this new 10,000 seater providing a much needed smaller venue to book additional acts & events into. Laval as you know a northern suburb, accessible by the Metro subway, Montmorency stop I believe, so while its built to cater to Laval proper & the market of the lower Laurentians sure, its going to, will & has attracted people from all over Montreal. That facility also has a community rink for local hockey and an Olympic, international ice surface, pretty busy place, a business decision, Bell bought the naming rights, its great for the players, the fans, the City of Laval. Thats why.

Now.... as for this comment of the Citadelles being "shunned and ignored" by the people of Quebec City... sorta-kinda... sure. Are you not familiar, unaware of the dynamic that exists in the province between QC & Montreal, the socio-political, economic, linguistic & even religious divides, the enmities that have existed for generations & how much it is that a great number of Quebecers' resent Montreal? That they would not support a Montreal farm club, its 'B' Team, its' 2nd rate players, do you not understand how they would find that an insult & thus "shun & disregard, ignore" that club? People seem to assume that the people of Quebec en mass are Habs fans. That everyone in the province supports, roots for the Montreal Canadiens. That the Habs are it, more than enough, the people should be happy, fully served when in fact like Southern Ontario & the Leafs, grossly under-served. Quebec City while smallish market, totally up-market boutique & high-end with an acquired taste for Major League Hockey, top tier, the NHL, and they want their OWN DAMN TEAM THANKYOU VERY MUCH. Not, of all things, Montreals rejects, works in progress, its leftovers & no-goers.

Problem?.... I think not.... That they are still on the outside looking in is disgraceful. Something very wrong going on here, went wrong with the last bout of Expansion with only Vegas gaining entry. I have my theories, Ive connected dots, not a pretty picture. I fully, totally support QC's ambitions, and I demand they be re-admitted, enough with the games, enough with the doublespeak, the ducking & dodging of "deferral" - whatever the Hell that means - and just get on with it, get it on, bring back the Diques already. You want numbers? Right out of the box thats a TOP 10 Revenue Club. You dont think the NHL can get even more for English Broadcast Rights with a franchise in Quebec City? Think again. You dont think they'll receive buckets more visa-vie French broadcast rights? Think again. You dont think Quebec City has the corporate heft to support a franchise? Do some GD research before making idiotic claims & statements. Your "worried about the Canadian $ tanking & Quebecs ability to weather such a storm? Well, aint that sweet, get a clue already.... on & on & on with the EXCUSES. Not buying. Just do it, get it done, stop the insanity....

Now... Anything else to say for yourself HUTCH?.... G'head, bring it. I can do this all day, all night.... You ever visit QC? Straight shot up 201 from Auburn to the Border.... Lovely drive, scenery. Ha? Checkitout.... Dont speak french?.... NOT A PROBLEM.... According to the French in France, neither do they..... Married a Parisian once, talk about a Snob..... Youd be surprised how friendly, accommodating... Language not a barrier at all.... though that too always trotted out as an issue & that too TOTALLY FALSE..... Carry on.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

The Canadiens have been toying with the idea of bringing there AHL farm club close to or in Montreal, including looking at Laval as a possible site since the 90's CH. The reasons for doing so are many, obvious. Montreal also owns, has a division called Evenko, concerts, events, consumer & trade shows etc, this new 10,000 seater providing a much needed smaller venue to book additional acts & events into. Laval as you know a northern suburb, accessible by the Metro subway, Montmorency stop I believe, so while its built to cater to Laval proper & the market of the lower Laurentians sure, its going to, will & has attracted people from all over Montreal. That facility also has a community rink for local hockey and an Olympic, international ice surface, pretty busy place, a business decision, Bell bought the naming rights, its great for the players, the fans, the City of Laval. Thats why.

Now.... as for this comment of the Citadelles being "shunned and ignored" by the people of Quebec City... sorta-kinda... sure. Are you not familiar, unaware of the dynamic that exists in the province between QC & Montreal, the socio-political, economic, linguistic & even religious divides, the enmities that have existed for generations & how much it is that a great number of Quebecers' resent Montreal? That they would not support a Montreal farm club, its 'B' Team, its' 2nd rate players, do you not understand how they would find that an insult & thus "shun & disregard, ignore" that club? People seem to assume that the people of Quebec en mass are Habs fans. That everyone in the province supports, roots for the Montreal Canadiens. That the Habs are it, more than enough, the people should be happy, fully served when in fact like Southern Ontario & the Leafs, grossly under-served. Quebec City while smallish market, totally up-market boutique & high-end with an acquired taste for Major League Hockey, top tier, the NHL, and they want their OWN DAMN TEAM THANKYOU VERY MUCH. Not, of all things, Montreals rejects, works in progress, its leftovers & no-goers.

Problem?.... I think not.... That they are still on the outside looking in is disgraceful. Something very wrong going on here, went wrong with the last bout of Expansion with only Vegas gaining entry. I have my theories, Ive connected dots, not a pretty picture. I fully, totally support QC's ambitions, and I demand they be re-admitted, enough with the games, enough with the doublespeak, the ducking & dodging of "deferral" - whatever the Hell that means - and just get on with it, get it on, bring back the Diques already. You want numbers? Right out of the box thats a TOP 10 Revenue Club. You dont think the NHL can get even more for English Broadcast Rights with a franchise in Quebec City? Think again. You dont think they'll receive buckets more visa-vie French broadcast rights? Think again. You dont think Quebec City has the corporate heft to support a franchise? Do some GD research before making idiotic claims & statements. Your "worried about the Canadian $ tanking & Quebecs ability to weather such a storm? Well, aint that sweet, get a clue already.... on & on & on with the EXCUSES. Not buying. Just do it, get it done, stop the insanity.... Anything else to say for yourself HUTCH?.... G'head, bring it. I can do this all day, all night.... You ever visit QC? Straight shot up 201 from Auburn to the Border.... Lovely drive, scenery. Ha?

I've been defending posts all day long, K.... TO CORRECT ERRONEOUS information.... historically, and/or otherwise, even then in 2002, when the now Rocket were exiled to Hamilton, that's why Junior is ignored in Montreal and now that fool Courteau has lost his trump card for the Q.

 

[Killion]

I've been defending posts all day long, K.... TO CORRECT ERRONEOUS information.... historically, and/or otherwise, even then in 2002, when the now Rocket were exiled to Hamilton, that's why Junior is ignored in Montreal and now that fool Courteau has lost his trump card for the Q.

Major Junior Hockey for a variety of reasons doesnt fare well in Montreal nor in Toronto proper, the GTA. As you know at one time it did, as did Senior Hockey for that matter however the business model is such, ever changing demographics in the two cities, competition for disposable income amongst all manner of sports & events, activities... really tough hoe to tow. The AHL Toronto Marlies playing out of the Ricoh which is managed by MLSE & the Rocket in Laval and the Bell managed by the Habs Evenko more about "managing the building" & the revenues generated in that regard rather than the clubs themselves being serious money makers. They make their money on everything else. Event bookings etc... while saving money with easy call-up's & demotions, centralization, localization.

 

[Nordskull]

Gee thought something happened ;-)

Killion married to a Parisian. I'll get to bed less stupid tonite. l()l

Cheers guys and gals

 

[GordonGecko]

Not even close.

Not only close, but was exactly the case. The Canadiens have ruled not only the province of Quebec for 100 years, but much of Canada too. There are die hard Hab fans throughout Canada in almost every city except (by and large) Toronto. The Nordiques came in and were adopted by Quebec CITY and ever since were trying to get out from under the shadow of Montreal. Same exact thing as Islanders/Rangers

 

[voyageur]

Not only close, but was exactly the case. The Canadiens have ruled not only the province of Quebec for 100 years, but much of Canada too. There are die hard Hab fans throughout Canada in almost every city except (by and large) Toronto. The Nordiques came in and were adopted by Quebec CITY and ever since were trying to get out from under the shadow of Montreal. Same exact thing as Islanders/Rangers

From that point of view I understand what you are saying. The Nordiques joined the WHA in the same era that the Isles joined the NHL. The Canadiens were in their glory. It was a glory that the Isles supplanted.

The Nordiques however have always had a hockey history, independent of Montreal. From the NHA, the AHL pre-expansion, the WHA, and now the CHL Quebec has forged its own hockey identity, as a city. They had to stage a massive beer strike to get approval for the WHA expansion from the mighty Molson family, with rival Labatt's being their major sponsor in 1979. So there has always been resentment and competition with the city of Montreal. I don't know if that same enmity existed with Long Island and Manhattan. Brooklyn perhaps has a unique sports identity.

 

[powerstuck]

My conclusion from the last two pages of this thread is that we in Québec City need to stop watching everything about NHL hockey, stop reading newspapers, listening to radios...stop f***ing breathing for NHL.

Then and only then maybe they will start caring about us. But let me tell you one thing...it's hard to do so...very hard when you have hockey in your blood. It's hard when hockey is something you learn to love by age of two. It's also hard when the league does everything it cans to push it down our throats.

Seattle will be an amazing market I have no doubt. But I do know from personal experience that they have trouble tuning in on a channel (other than the national NBC game once a week) to watch NHL hockey today, while I here in Quebec get 4-5 of them on any given night.

 

[voyageur]

Everything the NHL is doing is for the renegotiation of their US TV deal which expires in 2020-2021. If all goes to plan Seattle will begin playing that year. So there will be tangible evidence of their interest in hockey.

I would expect Arizona to Houston after the 2019 season. The NHL getting in to the 5th largest TV market will give it more traction when negotiating that contract.

It does not appear that the NHL will put Detroit back in a division with Chicago, even if network execs would obviously love it.

The only hope would be Calgary moving to Houston before then, closing the time zone difference, but I am not sure the NHL will abandon the wild card format, it is good for keeping teams in the playoff race, and playoff contention is good for attendance.

I think Quebec may sit on the sidelines until 2023. That's when Florida can break their lease with Broward. Broward may simply raze the arena to generate more revenue in its place. It would make sense, and would be done ahead of negotiating the next Canadian TV deal. Long wait, watching a half empty arena cheering on their team. But worth it.

I'd realign the divisions subsequently to have

Detroit
Toronto
Buffalo
Ottawa
Montreal
Quebec
Boston
NY Isles

dividing the 4 MSG properties into two divisions, one with the traditional northern rivals, the Rangers leading the post expansion growth, with popular TV markets in Pitt, Philly, Washington, New Jersey. Tampa emerging. A lot will change in 5 years, maybe Peladeau is replaced or supported by a more appealing investor, and hopefully Atlanta has not built a new arena by then, because you know they would get the nod. That's the hope I am holding out for though.

Calgary to Houston and Phoenix to Quebec is the only other option as I see. But Calgary is a hockey city, would be a shame to see them lose a team. And it would hurt the Canadian TV deal with Rogers, though not substantially.

 

[Nordskull]

My prediction is as follows

Not only Qc city will never get in, but Calgary, Winnipeg and Ottawa are franchises that could head south, meaning, move to the states, that is, with new rinks or not.

Lets talk about it in 2028, and take nothing for granted with the NHL.

 

[edog37]

My prediction is as follows

Not only Qc city will never get in, but Calgary, Winnipeg and Ottawa are franchises that could head south, meaning, move to the states, that is, with new rinks or not.

Lets talk about it in 2028, and take nothing for granted with the NHL.

Not sure why you think Winnipeg would be in any relocation scenario....Calgary obvious due to ongoing arena concerns. Ottawa less so & non-existent if they get the arena deal worked out.

 

[Bookie21]

My prediction is as follows

Not only Qc city will never get in, but Calgary, Winnipeg and Ottawa are franchises that could head south, meaning, move to the states, that is, with new rinks or not.

Lets talk about it in 2028, and take nothing for granted with the NHL.

Never heard Winnipeg being brought up for relocation....that is a new one. They are a model franchise. Calgary and Ottawa need new arenas, so anything is possible there

 

[WildGopher]

I fully, totally support QC's ambitions, and I demand they be re-admitted, enough with the games, enough with the doublespeak, the ducking & dodging of "deferral" - whatever the Hell that means - and just get on with it, get it on, bring back the Diques already. You want numbers? Right out of the box thats a TOP 10 Revenue Club. You dont think the NHL can get even more for English Broadcast Rights with a franchise in Quebec City? Think again. You dont think they'll receive buckets more visa-vie French broadcast rights? Think again. . . Just do it, get it done, stop the insanity....

I hope someone from the NHL reads this, because it's right on the mark. Someone else wrote here that the loss of teams in Winnipeg and QC was the NHL's original sin, and I think that's apt. Shouldn't have happened in the first place, and that sin wasn't expiated by Winnipeg's return alone. Requires a team in Quebec to fully fix it.

Seattle should be a good market, but if the NHL expands to only Vegas and Seattle, ignoring Quebec BOTH times, then every Canadian fan's complaints about the league being all about American TV markets to the detriment of Canada will be proven true once again, just like in '95 and '96. I don't know how the suits in the league can be that dense, to tell you the truth.

And K's hints about support for hockey in the GTA should be noted by the league, too. Greater New York can support 3 teams, and greater L.A. 2 teams, but Southern Ontario only 1? Are you kidding me? Are they really that stupid on the BOG to not want the sure cash machines that places like Quebec, Hamilton, Markham, or even LKW could be? Memo to BOG: look up "opportunity cost" and what you're throwing away by not bringing your product to where your best fans are.

 

[End on a Hinote]

Seattle should be a good market, but if the NHL expands to only Vegas and Seattle, ignoring Quebec BOTH times, then every Canadian fan's complaints about the league being all about American TV markets to the detriment of Canada will be proven true once again, just like in '95 and '96. I don't know how the suits in the league can be that dense, to tell

Not to digress, but IMO the NHL has proven that recently by continuing to milk the US women's gold medal. Something they did not do the last 2 Olympics with Canada when they won.

 

[WildGopher]

Not to digress, but IMO the NHL has proven that recently by continuing to milk the US women's gold medal. Something they did not do the last 2 Olympics with Canada when they won.

They need to be more balanced. But I'm glad they're finally promoting the women's game more. And props to the Leafs, Flames, Canadiens, Devils, and Sabres for their sponsorships/partnerships with local women's teams from the CWHL and NWHL. Penguins and Wild got involved with the NWHL All-Star game the past two years, too. It all helps build the game.

 

[Bookie21]

And K's hints about support for hockey in the GTA should be noted by the league, too. Greater New York can support 3 teams, and greater L.A. 2 teams, but Southern Ontario only 1? Are you kidding me? Are they really that stupid on the BOG to not want the sure cash machines that places like Quebec, Hamilton, Markham, or even LKW could be? Memo to BOG: look up "opportunity cost" and what you're throwing away by not bringing your product to where your best fans are.

As per the bolded, everyone on the BOG knows another southern Ontario team would be a cash cow, that has never been a question. You have the obstacle of the Leafs, Sabres and Jacobs though who will never let it happen.

 

[gstommylee]

As per the bolded, everyone on the BOG knows another southern Ontario team would be a cash cow, that has never been a question. You have the obstacle of the Leafs, Sabres and Jacobs though who will never let it happen.

Can you just picture the cost for another Ontario team. There is the arena how is that going to get paid for, buying of the team will cost a whole lot. Probably more than what Seattle paid (if expansion) if its relocation buying the game (again it'll cost a lot) + a very very high relocation fee. Not gonna happen.

 

[Nordskull]

Never heard Winnipeg being brought up for relocation....that is a new one. They are a model franchise. Calgary and Ottawa need new arenas, so anything is possible there

I'm not taking short term. But nobody here car garantee those places are still in the NHL in 10 years from now. Else then MTL, TOR, EDM, and VAN (the last two with luck) Canada is not in the plans.

And believe me, no canadian team owner would refuse a mega bucks offer to move a team stateside.

I hope someone from the NHL reads this, because it's right on the mark. Someone else wrote here that the loss of teams in Winnipeg and QC was the NHL's original sin, and I think that's apt. Shouldn't have happened in the first place, and that sin wasn't expiated by Winnipeg's return alone. Requires a team in Quebec to fully fix it.

Seattle should be a good market, but if the NHL expands to only Vegas and Seattle, ignoring Quebec BOTH times, then every Canadian fan's complaints about the league being all about American TV markets to the detriment of Canada will be proven true once again, just like in '95 and '96. I don't know how the suits in the league can be that dense, to tell you the truth.

And K's hints about support for hockey in the GTA should be noted by the league, too. Greater New York can support 3 teams, and greater L.A. 2 teams, but Southern Ontario only 1? Are you kidding me? Are they really that stupid on the BOG to not want the sure cash machines that places like Quebec, Hamilton, Markham, or even LKW could be? Memo to BOG: look up "opportunity cost" and what you're throwing away by not bringing your product to where your best fans are.

Nobody's at the NHL reads this.

 

[Killion]

Nobody's at the NHL reads this.

... actually Nords, they do. NHL personnel, Agents, GM's & Coaches, players etc. Amusingly, even a picture of Bill Daly with his laptop visible, on & open at a game, hf Boards on the screen floating around here somewhere. The NHL & all 31 teams all generally have Social Media personnel on-staff, and they too following the goings on. This is the largest & most popular site of its kind, the Business of Hockey Board a unique platform, nowhere else can they all find one stop shopping with links to articles & stories, variety of threads & topics being discussed, opinions expressed.