Has Quebec City been priced out of the NHL?

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Those leagues are all bigger. And as @saffronleaf said, the NHL clearly has a mandate to expand in the us. Small market Canada be damned. And frankly I don't agree with it, it's alienating canadian fans.

uh, then why does Canada have the QMJHL/OHL/ WHL, then, MM?

 

[Melrose Munch]

uh, then why does Canada have the QMJHL/OHL/ WHL, then, MM?

well that's not pro.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

well that's not pro.

uh, that goes to the point of why the markets don't exist or prefer that level financially over pro, though

 

[mouser]

Those leagues are all bigger. And as @saffronleaf said, the NHL clearly has a mandate to expand in the us. Small market Canada be damned. And frankly I don't agree with it, it's alienating canadian fans.

The NHL is a business joint venture, not a public utility company.

 

[powerstuck]

no it hasn't QC couldn't support pro hockey so it was sold to Colorado, saffron, it barely supports junior hockey as it is, and btw, Arizona has survived

Just what ? and what ?

Nordiques were selling 95%+ tickets when they were DEAD f***ING LAST in the league. They were selling those numbers when it was pretty much obvious it was over. I would like to see people of Carolina, Florida and Arizona do the same if someone would tell them their team is moving out of town by the time they play game number 82 in the season. I really would.

Quebec Remparts are neck and neck with Oil Kings (Edmonton) in junior attendance and the 3rd team is far, far, far behind.

So again keep drinking the anti-Quebec crowd coolaid.

uh, then why does Canada have the QMJHL/OHL/ WHL, then, MM?

As for this...well ya I wonder why the biggest % of drafted players chose to develop in the Canadian program of Junior leagues ?
I wonder even more why close to 50% of all drafted players since 1979 are from CHL...all these players must be shit.

 

[Killion]

well that's not pro.

By "pro" your referring specifically to "NHL" I assume MM? Because minor-pro with only a few exceptions (Winnipeg & the Maritimes) really hasnt done very well over the past few decades in Canada. All levels, be it AHL, ECHL or even the lower rungs, leagues that have come & gone. The Marlies in Toronto have been holding their own what with many being shutout from attending Leaf games as a result of cost & or lack of ticket availability however that wasnt always the case (Roadrunners etc) so even in the largest Canadian market support luke-warm at best.

Minor-pro in the US however in general, absolutely thriving, including major markets like Chicago where they do share a market with an NHL club; cities which arguably could possibly be home to NHL franchises. Both Quebec & most recently Hamilton do support Major Junior, prefer it to the AHL, gets more coverage, a lot more popular, makes money. Yet in Toronto proper, Major Junior seemingly a non-starter, teams relo'd to Mississauga & further afield. Strange dynamics going on. Pretty hard to just "broad brush" & be accurate. Cant really generalize. I mean, how do you explain Winnipeg? The Moose extremely popular before & even after the return of the Jets.... Varies from market to market on both sides of the border. Seattle, Everett, Portland OR included.

 

[Melrose Munch]

The NHL is a business joint venture, not a public utility company.

I agree. But i dont think a lot of people in canada do

By "pro" your referring specifically to "NHL" I assume MM? Because minor-pro with only a few exceptions (Winnipeg & the Maritimes) really hasnt done very well over the past few decades in Canada. All levels, be it AHL, ECHL or even the lower rungs, leagues that have come & gone. The Marlies in Toronto have been holding their own what with many being shutout from attending Leaf games as a result of cost & or lack of ticket availability however that wasnt always the case (Roadrunners etc) so even in the largest Canadian market support luke-warm at best.

Minor-pro in the US however in general, absolutely thriving, including major markets like Chicago where they do share a market with an NHL club; cities which arguably could possibly be home to NHL franchises. Both Quebec & most recently Hamilton do support Major Junior, prefer it to the AHL, gets more coverage, a lot more popular, makes money. Yet in Toronto proper, Major Junior seemingly a non-starter, teams relo'd to Mississauga & further afield. Strange dynamics going on. Pretty hard to just "broad brush" & be accurate. Cant really generalize. I mean, how do you explain Winnipeg? The Moose extremely popular before & even after the return of the Jets.... Varies from market to market on both sides of the border. Seattle, Everett, Portland OR included.

Yes, nhl. And i agree.

uh, that goes to the point of why the markets don't exist or prefer that level financially over pro, though

they dont prefer it, imo. they have been priced out. just like quebec.

 

[KevFu]

Those leagues are all bigger. And as @saffronleaf said, the NHL clearly has a mandate to expand in the us. Small market Canada be damned. And frankly I don't agree with it, it's alienating canadian fans.

For the record, I was a massive proponent of restoring the Winnipeg Jets, and am a massive proponent of restoring the Nordiques, (I'd like to see the Whalers, but I don't see it working), and abandoning certain markets that are four-sport cities that have had nothing but trouble and no success but I will not name.

I just find myself arguing against people saying things that aren't correct when it comes to Southern markets, NHL strategy, anti-Canada bias. Canada would like the NHL if I was in charge is all I'm saying.

But there's a reality of the situation. There's plenty of US markets who will build arenas. Canadian governments don't let billionaires screw the people as often. Which is "is the right thing to do" but ultimately cost Winnipeg the Jets 1.0, Quebec to Nordiques, and could cost Calgary and Ottawa.

 

[Melrose Munch]

For the record, I was a massive proponent of restoring the Winnipeg Jets, and am a massive proponent of restoring the Nordiques, (I'd like to see the Whalers, but I don't see it working), and abandoning certain markets that are four-sport cities that have had nothing but trouble and no success but I will not name.

I just find myself arguing against people saying things that aren't correct when it comes to Southern markets, NHL strategy, anti-Canada bias. Canada would like the NHL if I was in charge is all I'm saying.

But there's a reality of the situation. There's plenty of US markets who will build arenas. Canadian governments don't let billionaires screw the people as often. Which is "is the right thing to do" but ultimately cost Winnipeg the Jets 1.0, Quebec to Nordiques, and could cost Calgary and Ottawa.

I don`t disagree at all. For me I support expansion, and the take on using tax dollars for teams. I think Edmonton's deal was awful. But I do get the frustration. I think Canada will not get to 8 teams at this rate. Plus the NHLPA seems to have no interest in Canada besides revenue sharing.

That just speaks to the fact that much of the hockey community in Canada is the problem. When you have a large segment who wants the NHL to be excluding and rejecting fans left and right out of some vindictive desire to feel special, along with the warped entitlement that they own it and every Canadian should have access to attend games and everyone outside of a certain region should be cut off. If you have people ditching the NHL because it doesn't bend over backwards to satisfy them, then there's something very wrong there. Much of the NHL's problems stem from being the only league that's shared between two nations, and one of them is not happy about it. And that's Canada's problem. You can't expect to have a league that contains Tampa, Dallas, California, etc along with Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, and potentially QC and expect players to want to be in the latter choices. It's like being mad at them for choosing to date and marry models or driving BMWs.

I agree. I think the BOG wants to expand and the players don't want to be in Canada because of taxes, weather and media pressure. People don't realize this. A cup hasn't been in Canada in 25 years next April.

 

[Ernie]

I agree. I think the BOG wants to expand and the players don't want to be in Canada because of taxes, weather and media pressure. People don't realize this. A cup hasn't been in Canada in 25 years next April.

The taxes is thing is mostly a myth. They are lower in BC, Alberta, and Manitoba for NHL players than they are in California. And yet both California teams have won in recent history.

Overall, taxes are similar for Canada in the US, but they are used for different things. The US has a big ass military, Canada has free public healthcare.

 

[Melrose Munch]

The taxes is thing is mostly a myth. They are lower in BC, Alberta, and Manitoba for NHL players than they are in California. And yet both California teams have won in recent history.

Overall, taxes are similar for Canada in the US, but they are used for different things. The US has a big ass military, Canada has free public healthcare.

If it's not taxes, then its weather or media pressure. That's the thing. It's at least one of the three.

 

[Killion]

I agree. I think the BOG wants to expand and the players don't want to be in Canada because of taxes, weather and media pressure. People don't realize this. A cup hasn't been in Canada in 25 years next April.

"People dont realize this"? Actually, no, most reject it because its a false narrative. If it was a problem why didnt McDavid or Matthews stay seated at the Draft's? It was only a problem for Lindros because he didnt trust or like Marcel Aubut and history proved him right. Wayne Gretzky had outgrown pretty much every market in the league with the exceptions of Toronto, NY & LA, and as his then future wife, most of his celebrity friends all lived down there, in love, enamored with the culture of SoCal, playing for a team in one of the biggest markets on the map & resultant off-ice business opportunities (sponsorships) such a scenario would have & did produce for him.... pretty much a no brainer for Wayne. But how many Wayne Gretzkys' are there in the League? Have there ever been? Just one. One-off. Hardly typical uh? Remember as well, NY his second choice for his final contract. Wanted to finish his career a Leaf.

Or Mario Lemieux. He didnt complain about Pittsburgh. A city that for years was on a lot of players No Trade Lists. Mario Lemieux turning a sow into a silk purse, changing perceptions of that much maligned market & city and now look where he is, what he's accomplished. I dont buy this whole argument that the either the NHL or the NHLPA & its members have some negative bias towards Canadian (or any) markets. The PA has in fact demanded a seat at the table pursuant to Expansion, have actually called for the Relocation of certain US based teams, are in favor of moving or adding teams to markets like Southern Ontario & Quebec so I dont know where your getting the idea that their against Canadian teams, existing or not. The NHL & ownership however telling them to go whistle. Their so called "partners".

The NHLPA wants a healthy league, doesnt care where the teams are. They just want the franchises, all of them to be stable, making money. They dont care where they play & will make the best of their situations. Careers for the vast majority short, very very few ever even getting the opportunity to dictate where it is they play. Those that do get the opportunity deciding based on opportunity, offers, who's coaching, who's on the team, are they contenders, what role will they be expected to play & so on. Contract term & length. Quality of life is what you make of it regardless of where you live and if your a 20 something millionaire you'll enjoy a beyond wonderful quality of life regardless of whether your playing in Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Nashville, Carolina or South Florida. Ya youve got more of a Fishbowl like existence in places like Vancouver, Montreal & so on, Canadian markets, but so what? Comes with the territory. Your playing the game you love, set for life pretty much, so if youve got a problem with where your playing (and I dont mean you despise the owners, Manager & Coach clearly Morons, thats a different situation altogether)... then you've got a problem period that goes beyond the game.

 

[Melrose Munch]

"People dont realize this"? Actually, no, most reject it because its a false narrative. If it was a problem why didnt McDavid or Matthews stay seated at the Draft's? It was only a problem for Lindros because he didnt trust or like Marcel Aubut and history proved him right. Wayne Gretzky had outgrown pretty much every market in the league with the exceptions of Toronto, NY & LA, and as his then future wife, most of his celebrity friends all lived down there, in love, enamored with the culture of SoCal, playing for a team in one of the biggest markets on the map & resultant off-ice business opportunities (sponsorships) such a scenario would have & did produce for him.... pretty much a no brainer for Wayne. But how many Wayne Gretzkys' are there in the League? Have there ever been? Just one. One-off. Hardly typical uh? Remember as well, NY his second choice for his final contract. Wanted to finish his career a Leaf.

Or Mario Lemieux. He didnt complain about Pittsburgh. A city that for years was on a lot of players No Trade Lists. Mario Lemieux turning a sow into a silk purse, changing perceptions of that much maligned market & city and now look where he is, what he's accomplished. I dont buy this whole argument that the either the NHL or the NHLPA & its members have some negative bias towards Canadian (or any) markets. The PA has in fact demanded a seat at the table pursuant to Expansion, have actually called for the Relocation of certain US based teams, are in favor of moving or adding teams to markets like Southern Ontario & Quebec so I dont know where your getting the idea that their against Canadian teams, existing or not. The NHL & ownership however telling them to go whistle. Their so called "partners".

The NHLPA wants a healthy league, doesnt care where the teams are. They just want the franchises, all of them to be stable, making money. They dont care where they play & will make the best of their situations. Careers for the vast majority short, very very few ever even getting the opportunity to dictate where it is they play. Those that do get the opportunity deciding based on opportunity, offers, who's coaching, who's on the team, are they contenders, what role will they be expected to play & so on. Contract term & length. Quality of life is what you make of it regardless of where you live and if your a 20 something millionaire you'll enjoy a beyond wonderful quality of life regardless of whether your playing in Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Nashville, Carolina or South Florida. Ya youve got more of a Fishbowl like existence in places like Vancouver, Montreal & so on, Canadian markets, but so what? Comes with the territory. Your playing the game you love, set for life pretty much, so if youve got a problem with where your playing (and I dont mean you despise the owners, Manager & Coach clearly Morons, thats a different situation altogether)... then you've got a problem period that goes beyond the game.

The PA supported a team in QC because of the high revenues. I bet none of them want to play there though. Just like what happened with all the NTCs/NMCs and Winnipeg. 25 years without a cup is the counter to argument. Also, remember Draisaitl and McDavid were RFA's , not UFA's which makes a big difference.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

"Or Mario Lemieux. He didnt complain about Pittsburgh. A city that for years was on a lot of players No Trade Lists.

This is more history than anything, but that's a little revisionist, Killion. At the time of the draft, Mario raised quite a bit of a furor by snubbing the team for dragging their feet in contract negotiations. Heck, originally he didn't even plan to attend the draft and it took convincing him that by not attending at all he'd be also snubbing his fellow Quebecers wanting to celebrate him being drafted first overall. Had the draft in 1984 been anywhere but Montreal, it's likely Lemieux doesn't even go.

Some 3,000 Pittsburghers showed up to watch the drafting of Lemieux on June 9, an event that was shown in the Igloo on closed-circuit TV. Lemieux didn't exactly get off on the right foot with the fans when, on the advice of his agent, Gus Badali (who also handles Gretzky), he refused to hold up, much less don, a Penguin jersey and pose for the traditional photo. Contract negotiations were at a standstill, and Lemieux told reporters he didn’t want to shake the hand of Eddie Johnston if Johnston didn’t want to pay him what he was worth. That went over like a lead penguin. “I’ll sign when Lemieux signs,” shouted one season-ticket holder during the screening. It took just a week longer for Lemieux and the Penguins to come to terms—a reported $600,000 for two years, including a $150,000 signing bonus, and an option year at $150,000.

 

[Nordskull]

lol, some noise woke me up.

Lots of "alternative facts" reported down here.

Keep riding friends, keep riding on illusions.

Back to hibernation.

 

[Killion]

This is more history than anything, but that's a little revisionist, Killion. At the time of the draft, Mario raised quite a bit of a furor by snubbing the team for dragging their feet in contract negotiations. Heck, originally he didn't even plan to attend the draft and it took convincing him that by not attending at all he'd be also snubbing his fellow Quebecers wanting to celebrate him being drafted first overall. Had the draft in 1984 been anywhere but Montreal, it's likely Lemieux doesn't even go.

Initially yes, I didnt bother with all of that as he did grow up & came to his senses. Imagine how he feels about all of that youthful entitlement today if he ever thinks about it and what might not have been. Ha?.

 

[Killion]

The PA supported a team in QC because of the high revenues. I bet none of them want to play there though.

I would take that bet anyday but then, I'd just be robbing you MM and fortunately for you I do have a conscience.... To suggest such a thing given the cosmopolitan makeup of the NHL is really IMO quite ridiculous.... I dont know if youve ever spent much time up in QC but I'll tell you what its an absolute jewel of a place, people absolutely fabulous, and if your a sportsman, entertainer, no doors barred. Place is beyond steeped in history, culture.

Very much Old World so to think European or Russian players (who would feel right at home), upper middle class North American players which is the predominant demographic of players coming out of Junior & NCAA for a few generations now would have a problem with QC is to me absurd. Even 65-70 years ago QC a wonderful place to play hockey, and when a totally class act like Jean Beliveau refused to leave, the Canadiens having to buy an entire League to pry him loose what does that tell you? And dont be telling me "thats all old history, irrelevant". Its not irrelevant. Quebec City one of the greatest cities in North America on a whole bunch of levels, always has been, always will be.

So put that in your pipe & smoke it Mister.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I would take that bet anyday but then, I'd just be robbing you MM and fortunately for you I do have a conscience.... To suggest such a thing given the cosmopolitan makeup of the NHL is really IMO quite ridiculous.... I dont know if youve ever spent much time up in QC but I'll tell you what its an absolute jewel of a place, people absolutely fabulous, and if your a sportsman, entertainer, no doors barred. Place is beyond steeped in history, culture.

Very much Old World so to think European or Russian players (who would feel right at home), upper middle class North American players which is the predominant demographic of players coming out of Junior & NCAA for a few generations now would have a problem with QC is to me absurd. Even 65-70 years ago QC a wonderful place to play hockey, and when a totally class act like Jean Beliveau refused to leave, the Canadiens having to buy an entire League to pry him loose what does that tell you? And dont be telling me "thats all old history, irrelevant". Its not irrelevant. Quebec City one of the greatest cities in North America on a whole bunch of levels, always has been, always will be.

So put that in your pipe & smoke it Mister.

I love this post, and I love QC. I just wonder if the Canadian players do?

 

[Killion]

I love this post, and I love QC. I just wonder if the Canadian players do?

You'd hafta to be some kinda stoopid not to.

 

[ManofSteel55]

They may have been priced out of expansion. They are still in the relocation game you would think should that be an option.

 

[KevFu]

Since we're in a totally derailed thread at this point, let me just say that the Most Heinous Evil in the eyes of Canadian fans... would absolutely help Quebec City and other Canadian markets get teams faster.

Revenue Sharing.

Most of the "abandon the South" crowd see revenue sharing as the evil communist plot to "prop up undeserving markets."

But the fact is, the current RS structure is Robin Hood style, and not Three Musketeers style. Because so little of LOCAL revenues is shared among everyone, the NHL is always going to go for "high risk, high reward, massive population centers" (aka PHX/MIA/HOU) because a winning, popular team in a top 10 metroplex would bring in money for everyone via TV ratings/ads. While a team selling out every game in Quebec would bring in local revenues for the owners of Quebec.

If the NHL had an MLB-type revenue sharing model, where each team kicked in 34% of local revenues into the big pool that was divided up by each team.... then adding teams most likely to generate local revenue becomes more significant that before.

 

[Shawa666]

Houston can't either, The Aeros folded teice.

/s

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Houston can't either, The Aeros folded teice.

/s

the team or the league they were in, folded around them and everyone knows the MSE TO Iowa relo story.....

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Houston can't either, The Aeros folded teice.

/s

Of course you ignore the context.

 

[powerstuck]

Of course you ignore the context.

the team or the league they were in, folded around them and everyone knows the MSE TO Iowa relo story.....

Where were you fellas when people tell us Quebec City failed 3 times (Bulldogs, Aces, Nordiques).