Has Quebec City been priced out of the NHL?

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mouser

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Of course they're the same. As I explained in my prior post Statistica.com copies the numbers from Forbes.

And unless you find me better ones, I'm going to assume that those figures are not "made up", and if anything they closer to the truth than not...

Again as I said, they're estimates. Or "guesstimates" as I describe them. Guesses based on some reasonable principles, but still not actual numbers. If you bother to take the time you'll find years worth of threads on the BoH forum debating the validity of the Forbes annually published estimates.

Checking in with Toronto's numbers...and those appear to be accurate. As those same numbers have been posted in most of our local media.

Sooo...yeah. I'm comfortable with calling those stats...facts.

So far you've demonstrated you don't know the difference between revenue and operating income. Now add onto that you don't understand the definition of "fact".
 

Drytoast

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Of course they're the same. As I explained in my prior post Statistica.com copies the numbers from Forbes.



Again as I said, they're estimates. Or "guesstimates" as I describe them. Guesses based on some reasonable principles, but still not actual numbers. If you bother to take the time you'll find years worth of threads on the BoH forum debating the validity of the Forbes annually published estimates.



So far you've demonstrated you don't know the difference between revenue and operating income. Now add onto that you don't understand the definition of "fact".

Yes forbes got to where it is today by fudging numbers.

I’m sure newspapers constantly reference forbes as a source because they just throw out numbers “willy nilly”. That theirs no accuracy to the information gleaned from forbes, right?

Again. Until you have a better neutral source...I'm going with these numbers.

For this conversation the trends are whats at the heart of the discussion and the trends dont need numbers exact to the decimal. So the information is valid.
 
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joplin

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I've got a felling that the team that gets moved to Quebec is Ottawa
think about it. Melnyk wants to sell the Senators, and Karlsson likely wont re-sign there, plus there are issues with the arena
I'm surprised no one mentions that idea...
 
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TheLegend

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Yeah because its not like the nhl hasnt expanded in american markets that clearly were not really interested in hockey...


Florida
Atlanta
Carolina
Phoenix...

And its not me telling you who cares more about the sport of hockey...its actually data gleaned from surveys that explain why hockey is a distant 5th in popularity in the united states. You know...FACTUAL evidence that was in the link I posted?

And you want to compare that to a country that really only has an interest in hockey?

:shakeshead:


Of those four locations on your list..... only two (Florida, Atlanta) obtained a team because of expansion.

Carolina came about due to an owner wanting to go there.

Arizona came about because its owner had no where to go after the original destination (Minnesota) fell though.

I baffles me how people continue to perpetuate the false narrative that Arizona was some pet market of Gary Bettman's. When the reality of it is he had to find a home for a team without one on very short notice and went to an old acquaintance from his days with the NBA for help. :rolleyes:



EDIT: Shoving the train back on the track.

In regards to Quebec City being priced out?? I don't think they are. Their application was "postponed", which IMNSHO means it's still a valid application made in good faith with the understanding that the price at that time was $500 million (US). If the NHL were to suddenly come back and want more from them then I would be right up there with everyone else condemning the league for jacking the price up.
 
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powerstuck

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I've got a felling that the team that gets moved to Quebec is Ottawa
think about it. Melnyk wants to sell the Senators, and Karlsson likely wont re-sign there, plus there are issues with the arena
I'm surprised no one mentions that idea...

Maybe because there are at least two rich and serious buyers interested in Sens (Desmarais family and Guy Laliberté, the guy that founded the Cirque du Soleil). Maybe also because there is a downtown project for a new arena in Ottawa.
 

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Of those four locations on your list..... only two (Florida, Atlanta) obtained a team because of expansion.

Carolina came about due to an owner wanting to go there.

Arizona came about because its owner had no where to go after the original destination (Minnesota) fell though.

I baffles me how people continue to perpetuate the false narrative that Arizona was some pet market of Gary Bettman's. When the reality of it is he had to find a home for a team without one on very short notice and went to an old acquaintance from his days with the NBA for help. :rolleyes:

That 'friend' was Suns owner Jerry Colangelo who was told by the NHL a few years earlier that the league had no interest in the market so America West arena was built just for basketball. The Target Center in Minneapolis has regretted playing hardball with Winnipeg as ultimately it allowed a rival arena to be built in St Paul 9 miles away.

Karmanos wound up in Raleigh after rejecting Columbus as the temporary situation in Ohio was shaky. However Greensboro didn't work out well either. He wound up not trusting the Governor of Connecticut and just left town with no real clue where he was going.

Had he stayed in Connecticut the team would have been worth more because of exploding cable TV rights but the Whalers would have had a big problem competing against Connecticut basketball of both genders. BUT he would have controlled the new arena in Hartford.

Hartford’s plea to save the Whalers
 

SunDancer

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Of those four locations on your list..... only two (Florida, Atlanta) obtained a team because of expansion.

Carolina came about due to an owner wanting to go there.

Arizona came about because its owner had no where to go after the original destination (Minnesota) fell though.

I baffles me how people continue to perpetuate the false narrative that Arizona was some pet market of Gary Bettman's. When the reality of it is he had to find a home for a team without one on very short notice and went to an old acquaintance from his days with the NBA for help. :rolleyes:



EDIT: Shoving the train back on the track.

In regards to Quebec City being priced out?? I don't think they are. Their application was "postponed", which IMNSHO means it's still a valid application made in good faith with the understanding that the price at that time was $500 million (US). If the NHL were to suddenly come back and want more from them then I would be right up there with everyone else condemning the league for jacking the price up.

Good faith? The whole expansion process was a sham. The NHL sat on QC's application for almost a year before they officially said no but it only took a few days for Seattle to get the green light once their arena was sorted.

If the NHL can get $650 million from a large US market ... no chance they go to a small Canadian market for less.
 

BKIslandersFan

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That 'friend' was Suns owner Jerry Colangelo who was told by the NHL a few years earlier that the league had no interest in the market so America West arena was built just for basketball. The Target Center in Minneapolis has regretted playing hardball with Winnipeg as ultimately it allowed a rival arena to be built in St Paul 9 miles away.

Karmanos wound up in Raleigh after rejecting Columbus as the temporary situation in Ohio was shaky. However Greensboro didn't work out well either. He wound up not trusting the Governor of Connecticut and just left town with no real clue where he was going.

Had he stayed in Connecticut the team would have been worth more because of exploding cable TV rights but the Whalers would have had a big problem competing against Connecticut basketball of both genders. BUT he would have controlled the new arena in Hartford.

Hartford’s plea to save the Whalers
Target Center can host Hockey without a problem.
 

MNNumbers

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Target Center can host Hockey without a problem.

That's not what he was saying. It was the City of Mpls who wouldn't give the NHL team the sweet-deal that they requested which ultimately killed the deal and sent the Jets to Phoenix. The negative for Target Center was that there is now a competing venue. It doesn't matter who plays there, it's a competing major-league venue, so TC doesn't get as great a selection of events as they would if they were the only place in town.

Edit: However, as a Minnesota man, I would not say that anyone is disappointed. City of Mpls isn't, and they are the ones who made the decision. Target Center MAY be, but they couldn't do anything about it.
 

Fenway

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That's not what he was saying. It was the City of Mpls who wouldn't give the NHL team the sweet-deal that they requested which ultimately killed the deal and sent the Jets to Phoenix. The negative for Target Center was that there is now a competing venue. It doesn't matter who plays there, it's a competing major-league venue, so TC doesn't get as great a selection of events as they would if they were the only place in town.

Edit: However, as a Minnesota man, I would not say that anyone is disappointed. City of Mpls isn't, and they are the ones who made the decision. Target Center MAY be, but they couldn't do anything about it.

I see the Xcel Center won the Super Bowl media day farce.

Smartest thing Jacobs did in Boston was giving the Celtics 'free rent' at TD Garden and control of signage inside the arena for their games. (Bruins get the concessions and luxury box income ) as it kept the Celtics from building a competing arena.

Quebec City would be very hard pressed to bring in enough income to seriously reduce the debt service on paying 650M USD to join.
 

MNNumbers

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I see the Xcel Center won the Super Bowl media day farce.

Smartest thing Jacobs did in Boston was giving the Celtics 'free rent' at TD Garden and control of signage inside the arena for their games. (Bruins get the concessions and luxury box income ) as it kept the Celtics from building a competing arena.

Quebec City would be very hard pressed to bring in enough income to seriously reduce the debt service on paying 650M USD to join.

Hey, I'll play along here. Jacobs owns TD Garden. That's different than Mpls. Timberwolves don't 'own' Target Center. City of Mpls owns it. So, Xcel getting the "media" day is something the Timberwolves have no control over. And, considering that Burke and Gluckstern wanted 20M a year or some such outlandish price, I don't think that losing one Media Day over not paying out 400M is a bad deal for City of Mpls.

But, in general, I agree. Competing arenas don't help each other (NYC is the exception, of course).

As to QC, that's a little more mixed bag. Clearly there is debt service for Quebecor. However, should the team come, Quebecor itself have local media rights. Supposedly, media rights work like this: RSN buys the rights, because their own bottom line is better with them than without them (due to advertising income, etc). If that's a true equation, then Quebecor should profit even more than usual, because there is no middle man. They just get the benefit. So, there is that.

However, I continue to feel that the major leagues are largely missing the line for the new boat here. In another generation, the world will be digital. RSN value will be much less, media rights will be much less, UNLESS the leagues find a way to monetize digital to make up for it. I'm 50 and many of my friends 'follow' their team, but only through 'notifications'. They are not watching every second. Phone goes 'bing' they look at the highlight. That's the future, and the leagues need to think about how that's going to affect them.

It's off topic here, but that's why I think it was super-foolish for Mpls/Minnesota to build the US Bank Viking ship. 30 years from now, NFL is going to look much different. You are saddling yourself to horse the future of which is unknown. That's why I wonder about the speculative nature of the Key Arena project. And, that unknown future is reason to question NHL hockey in QC. {However, in a world where media rights sink, ticket sales will become golden again. In that case, IF Quebecor had purchased the team, they would be doing much better than many NHL teams - ticket market would be ravenous there.}
 

Svechhammer

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Karmanos wound up in Raleigh after rejecting Columbus as the temporary situation in Ohio was shaky. However Greensboro didn't work out well either.

You do realize the distance between Raleigh and Greensboro is about 20 miles less than the distance between Boston and Hartford, right? Those temporary years in Greensboro were never going to work, and they didn't plan for it to work. Its a little disingenuous to use that as a slight against the fans in Raleigh.
 

Fenway

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You do realize the distance between Raleigh and Greensboro is about 20 miles less than the distance between Boston and Hartford, right? Those temporary years in Greensboro were never going to work, and they didn't plan for it to work. Its a little disingenuous to use that as a slight against the fans in Raleigh.

In the end the 2 years in Greensboro cost him more than if he had stayed at the Hartford Civic Center while new arena was being built.

Raleigh in the end would have gotten a team and Hartford could have been saved but Karmanos got stubborn and moved out of spite.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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In the end the 2 years in Greensboro cost him more than if he had stayed at the Hartford Civic Center while new arena was being built.

Raleigh in the end would have gotten a team and Hartford could have been saved but Karmanos got stubborn and moved out of spite.
you forget, Connecticut state government is corrupt, no matter who was elected in Hartford, PK pleaded with them to replace XL, yet it still stands
 

Svechhammer

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In the end the 2 years in Greensboro cost him more than if he had stayed at the Hartford Civic Center while new arena was being built.

Raleigh in the end would have gotten a team and Hartford could have been saved but Karmanos got stubborn and moved out of spite.
Nah, once you've made that call, you have to leave. You don't go through lame duck years after you've already announced a move. At best, nobody shows up to the games. At worst, the fans get openly antagonistic towards the players and staff in the meantime.

The NFL learned this lesson with Houston when the Oilers moved to Nashville. That 1996 season saw attendance slowly dwindle to multiple games of 20k to the final home game of just over 15k, all in a 65k seat stadium. Not good. This is the reason you're seeing the Chargers play a couple years in a 40k seat soccer stadium rather than play out the string in San Diego, it just doesn't work. (the Raiders are showing it might work, but cases like that are rare)

Its just better to cut that cord immediately.
 
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TheLegend

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Good faith? The whole expansion process was a sham. The NHL sat on QC's application for almost a year before they officially said no but it only took a few days for Seattle to get the green light once their arena was sorted.

If the NHL can get $650 million from a large US market ... no chance they go to a small Canadian market for less.

Your opinion. And I was referring to Quebecor dealing in good faith. ;)

Sorry if it goes against the "Bettman hates Canada" narrative. But the NHL outlined their reasons for putting QC's bid on hold and they were legitimate, regardless of what we think of it. The loonie is still down and there's the East/West imbalance.
 

TheLegend

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That 'friend' was Suns owner Jerry Colangelo who was told by the NHL a few years earlier that the league had no interest in the market so America West arena was built just for basketball. The Target Center in Minneapolis has regretted playing hardball with Winnipeg as ultimately it allowed a rival arena to be built in St Paul 9 miles away.

Karmanos wound up in Raleigh after rejecting Columbus as the temporary situation in Ohio was shaky. However Greensboro didn't work out well either. He wound up not trusting the Governor of Connecticut and just left town with no real clue where he was going.

Had he stayed in Connecticut the team would have been worth more because of exploding cable TV rights but the Whalers would have had a big problem competing against Connecticut basketball of both genders. BUT he would have controlled the new arena in Hartford.

Hartford’s plea to save the Whalers


Which goes to the premise that the "great southern expansion" wasn't always the result of the NHL's insatiable desire to be there. Some of these moves were the result of necessities by the franchise owners themselves. But..... Arizona was the prime example of how not to move into a market.
 

gstommylee

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Good faith? The whole expansion process was a sham. The NHL sat on QC's application for almost a year before they officially said no but it only took a few days for Seattle to get the green light once their arena was sorted.

If the NHL can get $650 million from a large US market ... no chance they go to a small Canadian market for less.

Not really the whole intention back in 2015 was Seattle and Vegas it just no one from Seattle turned in a bid due to the arena wasn't being done for a NHL team. The NHL has the right to say no for what ever reason they deem fit.

Regarding the Seattle expansion process, once Seattle got OVG's arena approved, there was no point in doing a open bid process for #32 with Seattle bidding cause we all know the league would have picked Seattle anyways.
 

SunDancer

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Your opinion. And I was referring to Quebecor dealing in good faith. ;)

Sorry if it goes against the "Bettman hates Canada" narrative. But the NHL outlined their reasons for putting QC's bid on hold and they were legitimate, regardless of what we think of it. The loonie is still down and there's the East/West imbalance.

My comment was in response to your opinion that Quebecor's application is still valid and there's an expectation that the price will not change.

First of all, at this point it should be obvious to everyone that the NHL is not interested in going to QC. If you want to take the NHL at their word and believe it's because of balance that's fine but you cannot deny the NHL's unwillingness to put a team there.

Secondly, if QC did somehow get an expansion team, it most certainly wouldn't be at $500 million. Under no circumstances will the NHL accept less money from a small Canadian market when they can wait to get more from one in the US.
 

Burke the Legend

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Nah, once you've made that call, you have to leave. You don't go through lame duck years after you've already announced a move. At best, nobody shows up to the games. At worst, the fans get openly antagonistic towards the players and staff in the meantime.

The NFL learned this lesson with Houston when the Oilers moved to Nashville. That 1996 season saw attendance slowly dwindle to multiple games of 20k to the final home game of just over 15k, all in a 65k seat stadium. Not good. This is the reason you're seeing the Chargers play a couple years in a 40k seat soccer stadium rather than play out the string in San Diego, it just doesn't work. (the Raiders are showing it might work, but cases like that are rare)

Its just better to cut that cord immediately.

With the Expos is dragged on for like 5 very depressing years.
 
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