Guessing how long the players will endure this lockout...

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thinkwild

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Jul 29, 2003
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Over the next 10 years, there is several billion dollars in dispute that will go to either the players or owners. The players are fighting a battle as a corporation as a collective. Individual players are going to make this sacrifice they may not personally benefit from. Many players that have already made several million in their lifetime, a large number, are willing to make this sacrifice. On principle.
 

CoolburnIsGone

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PecaFan said:
But that's the player's own fault. If they had agreed to the cap months ago, no paycheques would have been lost, there'd be no drop in revenues due to fallout from the lockout, 91% would be paid the same or better as the NHLPA offer, and the median salary would have remained the same at 800K.

I am absolutely positive that what the players end up with might be better for the top 9%, but there's no way in hell it's going to be better for the bottom 91%. They're not going to make up the 3/4's of a billion dollars in lost wages, etc.
I can't see how its solely the player's fault. I mean its not like this is a strike we're talking about. And why should they agree to the cap without any concessions from the league...the owners & GMs deserve just as much blame in this twisted story as the players. But you're right the median salary would have remained the same at $800k...even when revenues eventually increased.

I'm absoutely positive that no one knows what agreement will be reached to determine which percentage of players will benefit...especially without knowing when the CBA is agreed upon. And it all depends on when both sides are going to start to compromise a little more. I've only seen a little movement from the players side of the negotiating table...the owners haven't budged an inch.
 

OlTimeHockey

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Every year, a player or two on very team play hardball. Rosters had to be set and players push for the top dollar figure. Managers give in in many cases and pay the "fine" in order to have the team ready on time.

What the Islanders started doing, which I am in full favor of, is put a deadline on negotiations and players have stopped with the demands for the most part, though players like Aucoin and Blake have asked for significant raises. Players have driven up salaries via their agents and vigorous negotiations. Average players are asking for high dollar figures and the low end guys have asked for high dollar figures.

Owners are responsible for not hardballing through their GM's, but the blame has to start somewhere. The players best interest is to make sure that going from 3 goals to six goals means as big a raise as possible.

Agents have to eat, too, ya know.

The owners either say no every time and go with farm hands and blastings from the press and fans for not dressing said players or they sign them to agreed upon figures and compete.

The owners responsible for the stupid contracts bear a lot of the brunt, but most of the damage and most of the reason for this lockout is due to the third line scrubs making over a million dollars and the worst players in the league NOT MAKING LEAGUE MINIMUM, but double it. Sometimes triple it. And there's not a system in place to reduce salaries. Comps inch up every year and it's impossible to pay the worst players in the league less money. You have to let players walk if you want to reduce salaries, IMO.

That said, players will not budge from Fat Daddy Goodenow and his 9% buddies making 90% of the money. Owners won't settle for a kick in the scrotum the next PA offer.

I say hockey in '06.

I'm confident the WHA will finally get some momentum.......er.....maybe.


OK, I'm not confident and trying to warm up to televised bowling a best I can.

I like the uniforms. And the fact that none of them could hold out without getting beaten up by their wife in a trailer park, or something.....
 

Donnie D

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Puck said:
On the surface, it does seem like the NHL is winning at this point. They have fan support, fans hate the high ticket prices (can't say I blame them) and perceive the players to be the biggest reason for these (we've heard arguments against this too).

Ironically, the owners lose more if the fans side with them. The last thing they need, in the long run, is to have the fans turn against their product... the product they are going to have to try and sell at some point in the future.

The best the owners can hope for in the court of public opinion is that the fans don't care - and they have done that in 90% of the US.
 

thinkwild

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It is ironic, if only owners could run their businesses well as they generate apathy and resentment of their product.

OlTimeHockey said:
Every year, a player or two on very team play hardball. Rosters had to be set and players push for the top dollar figure. Managers give in in many cases and pay the "fine" in order to have the team ready on time.

What the Islanders started doing, which I am in full favor of, is put a deadline on negotiations and players have stopped with the demands for the most part, though players like Aucoin and Blake have asked for significant raises. Players have driven up salaries via their agents and vigorous negotiations. Average players are asking for high dollar figures and the low end guys have asked for high dollar figures.

Holdouts are a problem. If only every RFA was forced into arbitration the problem would be solved.

Aucoin and Blake may have got significant raises, but its not inflationary. They simply slotted into the market rate they deserved. If you could guarantee those slots were fixed, or tied to revenues, and you have mechanisms for repealing and correcting bad decisions in hindsight, we're laughing.
 

djhn579

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Donnie D said:
Ironically, the owners lose more if the fans side with them. The last thing they need, in the long run, is to have the fans turn against their product... the product they are going to have to try and sell at some point in the future.

The best the owners can hope for in the court of public opinion is that the fans don't care - and they have done that in 90% of the US.

Is that 90% of hockey fans don't care, or 90% of the US population doesn't care, or 90% of sports fans don't care?

If 90% of hockey fans don't care, that would be a big problem.

The other 2 cases are fairly normal for hockey. The owners should be targeting those that don't follow hockey once play resumes, but as far as the current labor situation is concerned, if people have not been hockey fans in the past and didn't care before the lockout, it doesn't really matter if those same non-hockey fans still don't care now.
 

I in the Eye

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djhn579 said:
If 90% of hockey fans don't care, that would be a big problem.

IMO, if 90% of season ticket holders don't care, that would be a much bigger problem... Those that have the means and have shown the willingness to spend $ on the product (as opposed to those who typically watch the games for free on cable TV)...

If I was an owner, I wouldn't care nearly as much what non-regular paying, couch potato hockey fans think - they don't typically have the financial / geographical means (or perhaps desire - for whatever reason) to be season ticket holders... They are satisfied with the low cost hockey TV show... Yet, ironically, couch potato TV hockey fans (which includes teenagers) are likely the ones that participate in these "who do you support / how long will you support a lockout" media polls...

And what does their support mean? They promise to turn the channel and watch hockey again instead of watching Law & Order? They promise to tune in again to their favourite TV show?

IMO, season ticket holders in significant numbers will find other ways to spend their entertainment $... It's not as easy as turning the channel for them... They won't be sitting at home for years waiting for the NHL to call... They won't be all dressed up with nowhere to go... They like to go out for live entertainment on a very regular basis (it's what they're accustumed to), and they've proven that they have the $ to afford a wide variety of entertainment options... It's only a matter of time before season ticket holders find a suitable replacement (and perhaps one that their wives prefer better - and we can't ignore the power of household influence)... Season ticket holders (significant hockey "funders") will perhaps get fed up that the NHL and the NHLPA can't decide how to split the $ that they played a significant role in generating... They'll feel a little different towards the game... They'll feel a bit taken advantage of... They will start to think they weren't funding the love for the game, or the love for their team... They will begin to feel that they were actually funding greed and big business... They'll catch the NHL on TV instead... Perhaps in the form of highlights when they get home from a night on the town...

If the NHL was a TV league, then fair enough, what the average couch potato fan thinks is very important... But since the NHL is a gate league, it's what season ticket holders think that matters most of all, IMO...

And to date, I haven't seen any poll based on the thoughts of season ticket holders...
 

thinkwild

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I in the Eye said:
IMO, if 90% of season ticket holders don't care, that would be a much bigger problem... Those that have the means and have shown the willingness to spend $ on the product (as opposed to those who typically watch the games for free on cable TV)...

If the NHL was a TV league, then fair enough, what the average couch potato fan thinks is very important... But since the NHL is a gate league, it's what season ticket holders think that matters most of all, IMO...

And to date, I haven't seen any poll based on the thoughts of season ticket holders...

Season Ticket Holder - UNITE

The couch potatoes arent unimportant, but it is the season ticket holders with power. The link Im showing is an organization with lawyers experienced in dealing with the NHL. If the season ticket holders could speak with one voice, they have immense leverage

The owners might be willing to forgo all their revenues this year in their vindictiveness. But if their season ticket holders didnt renew in large numbers, many owners would be frightened. Like Melnyk in Ottawa. Our previous owner spent years browbeating, cajoling, threatening fans to continue buying season tickets at ever higher prices. I know for a fact, many tickets in this city have been sold out of fear of losing the team otherwise. Almost as a duty the fans did it. And our season ticket sales are still low and need to rise a few thousand. If several thousand fans decide to heck with season tickets, Melnyk is going to have a very tough time wooing them back. Not to mention corporate sponsors who will now have cold hard facts on how valuable their advertising and sponsorship was spent.

It is a dangerous game for the owners. If season ticket holders could ever speak with one voice through an association such as this, they could affect change. Check it out.
 

djhn579

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I in the Eye said:
IMO, if 90% of season ticket holders don't care, that would be a much bigger problem... Those that have the means and have shown the willingness to spend $ on the product (as opposed to those who typically watch the games for free on cable TV)...

If I was an owner, I wouldn't care nearly as much what non-regular paying, couch potato hockey fans think - they don't typically have the financial / geographical means (or perhaps desire - for whatever reason) to be season ticket holders... They are satisfied with the low cost hockey TV show... Yet, ironically, couch potato TV hockey fans (which includes teenagers) are likely the ones that participate in these "who do you support / how long will you support a lockout" media polls...

And what does their support mean? They promise to turn the channel and watch hockey again instead of watching Law & Order? They promise to tune in again to their favourite TV show?

IMO, season ticket holders in significant numbers will find other ways to spend their entertainment $... It's not as easy as turning the channel for them... They won't be sitting at home for years waiting for the NHL to call... They won't be all dressed up with nowhere to go... They like to go out for live entertainment on a very regular basis (it's what they're accustumed to), and they've proven that they have the $ to afford a wide variety of entertainment options... It's only a matter of time before season ticket holders find a suitable replacement (and perhaps one that their wives prefer better - and we can't ignore the power of household influence)... Season ticket holders (significant hockey "funders") will perhaps get fed up that the NHL and the NHLPA can't decide how to split the $ that they played a significant role in generating... They'll feel a little different towards the game... They'll feel a bit taken advantage of... They will start to think they weren't funding the love for the game, or the love for their team... They will begin to feel that they were actually funding greed and big business... They'll catch the NHL on TV instead... Perhaps in the form of highlights when they get home from a night on the town...

If the NHL was a TV league, then fair enough, what the average couch potato fan thinks is very important... But since the NHL is a gate league, it's what season ticket holders think that matters most of all, IMO...

And to date, I haven't seen any poll based on the thoughts of season ticket holders...

I agree for the most part. Season ticket holders are very important to the owners since they represent stablity in the market. At the same time though, many markets have less than half of their tickets going to season ticket holders and rely more on the casual fans to get off the couch to attend games.

For the NYR, Toronto, Detroit, and Philly (I think...), these teams would have almost all of their tickets sold to season ticket holders. Success (except for NYR...) has a lot to do with that.

For Buffalo, at least, we only had 9300 season tickets sold in 2001, and 7000 in 2003. Yet our attendance last season was ~16,000. We had more casual fans than season ticket holders. I think that would be true for any team in the league that is not regularly at the top of the standings and/or are not in a market with a large corporate presence.
 

SENSible1*

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djhn579 said:
I agree for the most part. Season ticket holders are very important to the owners since they represent stablity in the market. At the same time though, many markets have less than half of their tickets going to season ticket holders and rely more on the casual fans to get off the couch to attend games.

For the NYR, Toronto, Detroit, and Philly (I think...), these teams would have almost all of their tickets sold to season ticket holders. Success (except for NYR...) has a lot to do with that.

For Buffalo, at least, we only had 9300 season tickets sold in 2001, and 7000 in 2003. Yet our attendance last season was ~16,000. We had more casual fans than season ticket holders. I think that would be true for any team in the league that is not regularly at the top of the standings and/or are not in a market with a large corporate presence.
Season ticket holders in the majority of markets have a vested interest in the NHL winning this dispute in a landslide with a low hard cap.
 

ScottyBowman

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Thunderstruck said:
Season ticket holders in the majority of markets have a vested interest in the NHL winning this dispute in a landslide with a low hard cap.

Maybe in small markets but if I was a Detroit/Philly/Toronto/ or other large market season ticket holder, I would not want a cap because my already expensive tickets will just turn into larger profits for the owner.
 

I in the Eye

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thinkwild said:
Season Ticket Holder - UNITE

If season ticket holders could ever speak with one voice through an association such as this, they could affect change. Check it out.

Awesome... thanks for the link...

djhn579 said:
I agree for the most part. Season ticket holders are very important to the owners since they represent stablity in the market. At the same time though, many markets have less than half of their tickets going to season ticket holders and rely more on the casual fans to get off the couch to attend games.

For the NYR, Toronto, Detroit, and Philly (I think...), these teams would have almost all of their tickets sold to season ticket holders. Success (except for NYR...) has a lot to do with that.

For Buffalo, at least, we only had 9300 season tickets sold in 2001, and 7000 in 2003. Yet our attendance last season was ~16,000. We had more casual fans than season ticket holders. I think that would be true for any team in the league that is not regularly at the top of the standings and/or are not in a market with a large corporate presence.

Good points... In addition to season ticket holders, it would also be useful to filter and find out the opinions of "regular and semi-regular game goers"...

ScottyBowman said:
Maybe in small markets but if I was a Detroit/Philly/Toronto/ or other large market season ticket holder, I would not want a cap because my already expensive tickets will just turn into larger profits for the owner.

IMO, season ticket holders are likely not nearly as gung ho for a cap "at any cost"... They are not as willing to wait "however long is necessary" to get a cap implemented... If a cap gets implemented, fine... If a cap doesn't get implemented, that's fine too... Either way is not worth cancelling hockey for an entire season or more... They already spend a lot of money on hockey games... If a cap can keep their ticket prices from rising, great (no one would turn that down)... But I think that they see this as a nice-to-have, not need-to-have feature (and it's something that the owners are careful not to guarantee at any rate)... IMO, season ticket holders want to get back to attending hockey games asap... They are starting to feel kicked in the balls, and they are starting to grow tired of waiting at home for hockey to start... They are getting ansy to get their "live entertainment" fix - but they just want to wait to see if hockey gets cancelled first... This is just my opinion from casually talking to a handful of season ticket holders here in Vancouver - and from discussing things with my buddies who I attend Canucks games with very regularly here in Vancouver... Hardly representative, and perhaps season ticket holders in Edmonton and other micro-markets feel differently...

IMO, no hockey for a year or more has the potential to be devastating (not only in the US, but even up here in Canada)...
 

MarkZackKarl

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The utter stupidity of fans who think that the NHL getting a hard cap will improve the league quality etc and that would be in their best interest is sad.

I know for one, if the NHL gets a cap and the building of an elite team is impossible, I will stop investing in Hockey. I will not support a random league where each year the luckiest team wins and there is no roster consistency. I would stop buying tickets for sure.

And make no mistake about it, if this lockout drags on then season ticket holders will start cancelling their seats left right and centre. Mlakar, the Sens CEO , said that they had already lost a "significant" number of seat holders because of the lockout, a number that is ready to climb extremely high if they cancel a season.

Fans can speak with their wallets, but the majority chose not to, and instead support the owners in their quest to make the league far worse than it is now.

Dense.
 

Steve L*

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scaredsensfan said:
And make no mistake about it, if this lockout drags on then season ticket holders will start cancelling their seats left right and centre. Mlakar, the Sens CEO , said that they had already lost a "significant" number of seat holders because of the lockout, a number that is ready to climb extremely high if they cancel a season.

Fans can speak with their wallets, but the majority chose not to, and instead support the owners in their quest to make the league far worse than it is now.

Dense.
Would that be because people want their deposits back as they see no use into letting the teams keep hold of it for over a year?

I can see a lot of these people getting their tickets again but theses no sense in letting the team keep hold of your deposit when theres no sign of a season.
 

I in the Eye

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Steve L said:
Would that be because people want their deposits back as they see no use into letting the teams keep hold of it for over a year?

I can see a lot of these people getting their tickets again but theses no sense in letting the team keep hold of your deposit when theres no sign of a season.

I don't know about other markets, but here in Vancouver, we pay for our tickets upfront - as usual... Every month there is no hockey, Orca Bay slowly puts money back into our account...

*Rant on*

I imagine that they are collecting and pocketing the interest... It's a rather significant amount of money (and other regular game goers likely pay 2 to 3 times what we do), so they are potentially limiting the "entertainment options" of season ticket holders - while there is still a chance a season will be played... If it was just a deposit, whatever... But Orca Bay took the whole damn thing at the beginning... With a portion of the "entertainment" money we slowly get back each month, my buddies and I find something to do on the weekends (unfortunately, usually with our wives and girlfriends - we love them dearly, but hockey is a "guys night out" for us - a deversion from the throws of everyday life - and we are getting too old for clubbing, and strippers don't do much for us - we'd much rather see unprofessionals strip)...

We're kind of in limbo... If the NBA was still in Vancouver, I'd imagine that we would have gotten tickets to professional basketball instead... and we just haven't gotten into Giants hockey like we were hoping... The other week we went with our significant others for "dinner and dancing"... I'd rather watch an animal die than dance...

Our "entertainment enjoyment" so far this year has been lacking... But whatever... We're spoiled, breast-feeding North Americans, and there are people all around who have it much much worse than we do... In the end, **** hockey, it's just a game... If it's played, awesome... If it's not, that's fine too...

I think we're pretty creative... There's only a matter of time before we find something worthwhile to do regularly to replace NHL hockey with... What we should be doing is donating our money and time to a charity while the lockout is on... Instead of being whining, greedy, ***holes - just like the players and the owners... We're no better, so really, who are me and my buddies to judge and to blame...

This lockout has been quite the reality check... In that regard, I'm quite content... And that should be scary to the owners... I am not blindly and without hesitation handing over my money to them like in previous years (if they didn't take my money from the beginning of the season - I'm not so sure that I would be giving them my money as of this point in time - perhaps Orca Bay's marketing people predicted this would happen)... I'm re-evaluating and 2nd guessing my purchase... I'm not so sure that I'll be renewing my tickets depending on how this thing plays out... depending on how far what I interpret to be "greed" takes them... If I want to have integrity, my actions will have to support my thoughts and beliefs... If I get to that point where I truly believe that "greed" has overtaken the "love" of the game, then I can't support it with my $... I'll watch hockey on cable TV for free... An extended lockout, to me, spanning 1+ years is a pretty good sign of greed... as I do not believe that things are so bad that hockey cannot be played...

It feels kind of funny... Here we are, ready and willing consumers who have already given a company money for their product... and they are giving the money back each month...

It's kind of like, "thanks... but no thanks"...

*rant off*

Thanks for listening... It's been brewing for a while and had to get that off my chest :innocent:
 
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