Gretzky isn't the greatest goal scorer?

[BraveCanadian]

That's unadulterated cherry picking.

It sure was.. wow

 

[cole von cole]

It sure was.. wow

K, so if I change it for Gretzky so it's his goal-scoring prime (1979-80 to 1990-91), it's still 0.77622 goals per game (718 goals in 925 games), which is less than Lemieux.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Gretzky had the deadliest slapshot in the game during his prime.

Pinpoint accurate along the ice or top shelf. Ridiculous release coming out of a turn or deke. It allowed him to fake out goalies using his slapshot then deke around and slide it in the empty net.

When I watch replays of that era, it feels like the net was just empty the whole time.

 

[Zuluss]

Here is a table that records % leads over the 5th place in goals

|Gretzky|Ovechkin|Lemieux|Bossy|Brett Hull|Bure
|70|51|67|47|76|38
|67|43|37|24|52|34
|33|40|35|19|33|15
|27|39|15|15|10|13
|6| 38|4 |15| |0
|0| 32|4 |7 | |
|0| 19| |5 | |
| | 7| |0 | |
| | 4| | | |
| | 0| | | |
Total|222|273|132|162|171|101

Gretzky does have the highest two-year peak, edging out Brett Hull and decisively surpassing Lemieux and Ovechkin.
However, Gretzky's goal-scoring prime is short-lived even compared to Bossy who retired at 30. It is enough to pass Brett Hull, who is the only one comparable in terms of peak, so if you value peak the most, you should go
Gretzky
Brett Hull
Ovechkin/Lemieux

If the length of prime matters though, then Ovechkin is definitely ahead. For example, you can add the lead margins in each column (the last line in the table) and see that while Gretzky is comfortably ahead of Brett Hull and Lemieux, Ovechkin is similarly ahead of Gretzky.

So I guess we have the answer: Gretzky is not the best goal-scorer of all-time, because Ovechkin is ahead of him in this department.

If anyone is interested in bringing Howe/Bobby Hull/Richard into the picture, I will do more analysis tomorrow.

 

[morehockeystats]

I'm talking about in the NHL, and the players in their primes.

The subject doesn't state "NHL", and what, Malone and Lalonde weren't in their prime?

 

[cole von cole]

The subject doesn't state "NHL", and what, Malone and Lalonde weren't in their prime?

But I was talking about the NHL, you had the career goals per game for Gretzky and Lemieux, not the GPG numbers from Gretzky's and Lemieux's prime.

 

[morehockeystats]

But I was talking about the NHL, you had the career goals per game for Gretzky and Lemieux, not the GPG numbers from Gretzky's and Lemieux's prime.

My question is why do you drop Lalonde and Malone from the NHL conversation if you're using the methods you are. (let alone Bossy)

 

[cole von cole]

My question is why do you drop Lalonde and Malone from the NHL conversation if you're using the methods you are. (let alone Bossy)

I didn't drop them, I just forgot about them. They also played in the infancy stages of the NHL, when scoring was higher than it was in the 80's.

 

[morehockeystats]

I didn't drop them, I just forgot about them. They also played in the infancy stages of the NHL, when scoring was higher than it was in the 80's.

Sorry, if you adjust for epoch, then you need to bring Ovechkin and Stamkos into the conversation.

Frankly, I think the whole topic is pretty much moot.

 

[squaleca]

i love how people make up stats for mario like he avg over 2 ppg over his career if u minus certain seasons like where do they get this stuff from mario scored over 161 points twice in his career in 17 seasons how does that equate to 2 ppg

 

[squaleca]

whats clear to me is that wayne didnt care about scoring after the 84 season i mean u take into account that the guy avg close to 70 goals a season up to that point and then he drops to 40 a season the remainder of his career thats a 30 gps drop off

 

[squaleca]

gretzkys prime was just to long and to high to compare him to anyone mario had a high prime but it was just way to short and im not into iff's

 

[The Panther]

whats clear to me is that wayne didnt care about scoring after the 84 season

Not quite -- he averaged 56 goals per season over the five years after 1984 (59 per 80 games).

 

[Hockeypete49]

I hated him but Bossy was the best I ever saw.

 

[squaleca]

Not quite -- he averaged 56 goals per season over the five years after 1984 (59 per 80 games).

well i see your point but i guess 56 goals avg over 5 years is still a significant drop off from avg 71 goals his first 6 years which would avg out to what 65 plus over his first 11 years

 

[Cherpak]

No he didn't HaHa

Accurate yes, but I recall he was actually thought of as having a very weak slapshot (like they say McDavid's shot is weak)

Deadliest slapshot in the game during Gretzky's prime...probably Al MacInnis...Doug Wilson's was pretty good...and there are many others that would have been considered above Gretzky (probably a couple/few players on most teams had a better slapshot than Gretzky)

In those days MacInnis and Iafrate were the most feared slap shots.

 

[Cherpak]

Wrong. Brett Hull had the deadliest slapshot in his prime.

Brett was known more for his snap shot than slapper. As someone already said, your thinking of his father Bobby Hull.

 

[Elche1975]

I think shooting percentage is pretty important.

If a guy needs 10 shots to score a goal, i mean watch a Washington game, Ovy goes on his spot and they try to set him all the time, he misses the net some of the times, he has like each game for sure a chance to shoot 10-20 times......

Guys in the 80's when they had no zone coverage and players were playing the puck too much had more quality shots than the players now, so often goalies were like ,860% instead of now under ,910% we say the guy is not doing his job! The average was under ,880 in the 80's and now is nearly ,920%.

So the guy who is able to have a 17% in today's game like Stamkos its crazy, it means that goalies are 83% only with him but 92% with others.

The other thing is the way the guy is scoring goals.....Stamkos can score any kind of goals, deadly shot(hard + accurate.....Slapper + Wrister), he can skate and have a scored touch flair(able to position and put himself in a scoring chance position). I would think his biggest weakness is breakaways.


Stamkos is the guy who fit in everything(goal production is always there and crazy for his era, can score every ways possible, amazing shooting percentage) no other players have all of this pedigree. Plus Stamkos in 80's-90's would of score way more because he has better skating and shot than most guys that were named.


I would say closest would be Bossy, Lemieux(could of been him but more a pass first mentality).

 

[Elche1975]

In those days MacInnis and Iafrate were the most feared slap shots.

I would say

Beginning of the 80's was Doug Wilson, Gaston Gingras, Bossy, Potvin


Mid 80's Macinnis, Iafrate, Hull, Richer, Manson


Good one but not on top Kurri, Glenn Anderson, Bourque(when he was using it), Coffey, Reed Larson, Robinson, Park, Chelios, Steve Thomas, Wendel Clark, Yzerman


Slap shots improved like crazy, alot of guys in 80-90's were under 80 mph and now alot are beetween 90-100+ but they cant rarely score with it if the goalie have no traffic at all.....

 

[morehockeystats]

I would say

Beginning of the 80's was Doug Wilson, Gaston Gingras, Bossy, Potvin


Mid 80's Macinnis, Iafrate, Hull, Richer, Manson


Good one but not on top Kurri, Glenn Anderson, Bourque(when he was using it), Coffey, Reed Larson, Robinson, Park, Chelios, Steve Thomas, Wendel Clark, Yzerman


Slap shots improved like crazy, alot of guys in 80-90's were under 80 mph and now alot are beetween 90-100+ but they cant rarely score with it if the goalie have no traffic at all.....

The stick technology has a lot to do with the speed of the slapshot.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Was watching the deception Gretzky had.

Oftentimes when he wound up for the slap shot, he was looking across the slot, making the goalie spread out for a pass.


Cuts to the side, looking to pass, and then the slap. I think a couple of times I saw him rip a slapper top shelf while looking at the player across the seam.

 

[Elche1975]

The stick technology has a lot to do with the speed of the slapshot.

Obviously helped increase mph average but not by much...strenght improved, technique too, speed too. Average weight in 80's was 190 lbs and it went to 206 lbs at the lock out. Now 201 lbs(after lock out when goons and big guys there only because they are big were replaced by more skilled players). If weight increase, average mph in shooting will also increase.


When they do skill contest in each team its rarely the guy that we expect who wins but some big guy(most of the time), Brashear, Kilger, Cowen, Claesson, Pedan

These guys did 102-107 mph. We know about Weber, Chara coz the medias keep saying it but there is alot of guys that can shoot this now. Only in the AHL skills contest you see lots of guys like Mark Mancari 103, Kurtis Foster 101, Colin Miller 106, Ryan Graves 103, Hunt 101, Petrovic 101, Mcnabb 103, Nygren 105 they all beat most of the nhl all star contest shooters.

I'm pretty sure its the same in the 80's and some less expecting guys had hardest slapshot.

 

[morehockeystats]

Obviously helped increase mph average but not by much...strenght improved, technique too, speed too. Average weight in 80's was 190 lbs and it went to 206 lbs at the lock out. Now 201 lbs(after lock out when goons and big guys there only because they are big were replaced by more skilled players). If weight increase, average mph in shooting will also increase.


When they do skill contest in each team its rarely the guy that we expect who wins but some big guy(most of the time), Brashear, Kilger, Cowen, Claesson, Pedan

These guys did 102-107 mph. We know about Weber, Chara coz the medias keep saying it but there is alot of guys that can shoot this now. Only in the AHL skills contest you see lots of guys like Mark Mancari 103, Kurtis Foster 101, Colin Miller 106, Ryan Graves 103, Hunt 101, Petrovic 101, Mcnabb 103, Nygren 105 they all beat most of the nhl all star contest shooters.

I'm pretty sure its the same in the 80's and some less expecting guys had hardest slapshot.

Interestingly, I looked around now, and found out that Alexander Riazantsev of the KHL recorded a 114mph slapshot in the KHL. He's only 6'0", albeit with 209lbs, almost identical to PK Subban's stats. Kuteikin scored 3 goals from the red line in the last KHL playoffs and is nicknamed the "Tsar-Cannon"

 

[mrzeigler]

Interestingly, I looked around now, and found out that Alexander Riazantsev of the KHL recorded a 114mph slapshot in the KHL. He's only 6'0", albeit with 209lbs, almost identical to PK Subban's stats. Kuteikin scored 3 goals from the red line in the last KHL playoffs and is nicknamed the "Tsar-Cannon"

IIRC, that was during a KHL skills competition and the accuracy of that was questioned ... not only because most everyone questions the veracity of what comes out of Russia but also because of the distance the shot traveled. I think he lined up considerably closer to the net, and people who know about this stuff claimed that doing so would unfairly goose the numbers upward.

 

[SCampo98]

Pure goalscorer, no. Playmaker, easily.