Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by sunb, May 29, 2006.
Who is the greatest goalie of all-time and why?
International accomplishments can be considered.
I'd say Patrick Roy.
It is a homer pick, but the guy won 4 stanley cups, he won Memorial Cup as a coach, he won many times the Vezina trophy, he won the Conn Smythe.
This guy is a winner, he won everywhere he went to. He opened the way to a plenty of Quebec goaltenders of the modern NHL (Theodore, Giguere, Luongo, Cloutier, Fernandez, Garon, Biron, Denis, Fleury, etc..)
Voted Sawchuk, Please add Grant Fuhr
I said please.
Plante, by a slim margin over Sawchuck and Hall. Sawchuck may well have been the best money goaltender of all time and Hall was one of the first to use what has evolved into the butterfly style but Plante's talent, achievements, personality and innovations set him apart from the others.
Yeah, there's the mask but there was the way he'd roam, refusing to be hemmed in by a painted painted rectangle in front of his net, digging the puck out of corners and moving it up the ice. Doesn't get the credit as an offensive contributor that he ought to get.
While he loved to blow his own horn and, if he were to be believed, never gave up a goal through any fault of his own, Plante knew the game inside out and wasn't at all shy about sharing his opinions, which often differed from team practices, making him very popular with writers on the Hab beat, if not in the dressing room.
Toe Blake did not like Plante, who was far too much of an individual and far too open with dissenting opinions for his liking. When Toe Blake took a dislike to someone he went all the way. He hated your play, he hated your clothes, your car and the way you parted your hair. In fact, Blake got rid of Plante as soon as he possibly could.
Several years later,when asked who the greatest goalie of all time was, Blake's answer was almost immediate, "Jacques Plante".
Good enough for me.
Is is just me, or are Hasek, Roy and Brodeur a complete recreation of Plante, Sawchuk and Hall?
It struck me lately, that both groups of guys came along during the same time and compare strangely well to each other, Plante and Hasek being the individualists who won Harts, Sawchuk and Roy being the money guys who were not known to be the nicest guys off the ice and Hall and Brodeur being the guys that came last of each group and had brilliant form and the ability to play a tonne of games.
Great post. In a way, maybe it would have been better if someone else had popularized the mask because it seems to have overshadowed all of Plante`s accomplishments. Even if he remained retired in the mid-60s he would likely be deserving of the greatest goalie of all-time title, but his comeback solidified his standing. In `71 he had the best GAA in the NHL at age 42 on a mediocre Leaf team. Incredible.
I always say this about Roy: He intimidated the opposition like no other goaltender in NHL history, and quite possibly was the most "clutch" goalie in NHL history as well.
I need one game to win, my life depends on it, I take Patrick Roy. That may be because I really don't know all that much about the older generation of Plante, Sawchuk, etc.
I have long maintained that goaltender is the one position with the most divergent opinion for the best ever. Ask 10 random insiders or historians for their pick, and you'll likely get at least six different answers. (Plante, Roy, Sawchuk, Hall, Hasek and Tretiak. Guys like Durnan, Dryden, Brodeur and even Parent show up top fives).
I went with Plante. justsomeguy articulately outlined so many of the reasons in his post. Not so much for the seven Vezina Trophies, since it was awarded to the goalie with the best GAA, but for the six Stanley Cup rings. The No. 1 goalie on the greatest dynasty the game has ever seen. Can you give a better praise than that? A seven-time all-star, too. He has a better winning percentage (I believe) than Sawchuk and Roy.
But just to show how close it really is, here are the accolades of some other contenders:
*Patrick Roy: Four Stanley Cups, three Conn Smythes, all-time leader in wins, three Vezina trophies (lost a tie-breaker in 2002), four-time first team all-star, two-time second team all-star, five-time Jennings winner.
*Terry Sawchuk: Four Stanley Cups, four Vezina Trophies, all-time leader in shutouts, second all-time in wins, three-time first-team all-star, four-time second team all-star. (Seven all-star selections in total).
*Glenn Hall: One Stanley Cup ring (which, rightly or wrongly, likely hurts his place on all-time lists), seven-time first-team all-star, four-time second-team all-star (11 in total), three-time Vezina winner, Conn Smythe Trophy winner, owner of possibly the most unbreakable record in sports. (Consecutive games played by a goaltender).
*Dominik Hasek: One Stanley Cup ring (again, likely hampers his place on all-time rankings), two Hart Trophies, two Pearson Trophies, six Vezina Trophies, six-time first-team all-star, two-time Jennings Trophy winner, an international star before arriving in the NHL and the top goaltender at the 1998 Olympics.
*Ken Dryden: Six Stanley Cups, 1 Conn Smythe Trophy, averaged over 35 wins a season, five Vezina Trophies, five first-team all-star selections, one second-team all-star (keep in mind he only played seven seasons).
*Vlastislav Tretiak: Simply put, the greatest international goaltender there ever was.
*Bill Durnan: Two Stanley Cups. In eight NHL seasons, was a first team all-star six times and won six Vezina Trophies. Retired with one of the best winning percentages ever.
For those who have wondered why there isn't a consensus top goalie of all-time, you have your answer. Goaltender is a very demanding position, and it's very difficult to remain at an elite level year after year. It's very close, you can make a case for any of the goalies mentioned above, but I'll go with Plante.
I went with Sawchuck. I've never really been able to pick who my all time favorite goalie is, but Sawchuck is always the first one I choose when picking an all time team.
He was a 7 time all-star, and won the Hart Trophy in 1962. His 6 Stanley Cup wins, 10 Finals appearances, and 7 Vezina Trophies are all records for goaltenders. A Retro Conn Smythe win in 1960 also makes him the only goalie on the list with both a Hart and a Conn Smythe.
- Red Fisher - The man in the mask
"If Jacques was in the nets today, I'd still be playing. That's how good he was." - Bob Plager
"Jacques Plante is the best goaltender I've ever seen." - Anatoli Tarasov
"He did it his own way, and he was so damn good, he could do it his way." - Red Fisher
Interesting musings. Had never thought about it 'till now but there are some interesting parallels in your pairings.
Can see Plante and Hasek twinned for their "may not be an "I" in team but there is one in win" approach to things. There are also some points of comparison in terms of their alleged "phantom injuries", ailments that training staff can't seem to put their finger on that prevented them from playing on occasion. While Plante may not have been a barrel of laughs when off the ice, I'm pretty sure he didn't require a "minder" when socializing or ever punched a sportswriter.
Roy and Sawchuck were both highly skilled and tightly wound. Sawchuck was a sullen, surly piece of business while Roy has given new meaning to the word "arrogant" on more than one occasion. Both won Cups with multiple teams and drew attention to themselves as a result of publicized off-ice scrapes involving the justice system.
Brodeur and Hall are both guys who performed at the top of their profession but were more easy-going and fan-friendly than most of their peers. Rather than be a little distant and aloof, something not seen as a flaw in a goalie's psychological makeup as it might be in a skater's, both these guys were in the thick of things socially. They'd both kid and kibbitz along with everyone else in the dressing room. Hall's traditional pregame stomach emptying ritual was an essential part of the Blackhawks game preparation.
I voted Sawchuck because of his amazing career shutout record.
Billy Smith. I don't like the newer goaltenders all the much (except for Brodeur), and yes I am a bit bias.
But Smith was great in his own right. Four Stanley Cups in a row, is the main reason why the Islanders beat the heavily favored Oilers in 83, first Vezina winner (well first for best goaltender), Conn Smythe winner, Jennings winner, first Goalie to ever score a goal, hall of famer, but the reason I put him above everyone else: he changed the way goalies play when people are in front of your net, he'd hack at them, and make them pay for getting too close to him.
As usual, I'll only vote on guys that I saw play (early-80s on). My pick is Patrick Roy, because the man was money, pure and simple. Had Hasek actually won the Cup with Buffalo in 1999, that probably would have tipped the scales in my view because it would have been almost a single-handed Cup win, but Patrick's still the man.
Patrick Roy , He's a REAL ONE . He's a winner and he got the passion of hockey .
I dunno. He's a winner, but passion for hockey? He did give up his shot at the Olympics in 2002, and Brodeur took it.
Hmmmm. Glenn Hall was voted the NHL's best netminder 7 times and also won a Smythe. Hasek was voted the NHL's best 6 times.
Those would be the top 2, IMO. Roy would probably crack the top 3.
The one thing is his Vezinas were not "real" Vezinas - they were the equivalent of the Jennings trophy today. The 1st team all star was the goaltending award until 1982. With that in mind, Glenn Hall is the only goaltender to be voted the NHL's best 7 times.
Grant Fuhr (add him in as an option)& Vladislav Tretiak !
Hall has 7 1st team all-star berths, and Plante has 3. In 57-58 Hall edged Plante 108 to 104 in voting and in 59-60 it was 106 to 105. Reverse those and it becomes 5 each. I don't think 4 points in all-star voting is enough to outweigh the rest of Plante's advantages.
Plante came out of retirement and out performed Hall in St. Louis. Hall was the 1st team all-star in 68-69, but Plante was the #1 goalie in the playoffs. Hall was in St. Louis for 4 years and Plante for 2, yet they both had 12 playoff wins for the Blues.
Dryden cause he did all his damage in the league in a ten year span
would have voted for Fuhr if he was on the list
Voted Roy - but probably because I never really got to see much of Tretiak in action...
I realize I'm very much in the minority here, but I went with Ken Dryden. Granted, his brief career didn't enable him to maintain his excellence as long as Messrs. Plante, Sawchcuck, Hall or Roy did. But he was, simply put, the most dominating goalie I've ever seen. And while he didn't amass the statospheric win totals which the aforementioned other goaltenders did, some of the numbers he did put up are astonishing. To wit: 46 career shutouts, only 57 career regular-season losses, a lifetime GAA of 2.24 (in an era when goal scoring was on the rise, at that), and of course, 6 Stanley Cups in just 7 short seasons. He wasn't solely responsible for those 6 Cups, it's true, because he played on teams that were loaded with talent, both up front and on the blueline. But he was clearly the difference-maker against the Bruins, who were the greatest offensive juggernaut the league had ever seen up to that time, and almost undoubtedly would've repeated as the Stanley Cup champs in 1971 but for Dryden's heroics. Anyway, I certainly don't think it's any coincidence that the Habs ceased to be a dynasty after his retirement in 1979.