Greatest Forwards of All Time #3

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by canucksfan, Feb 8, 2006.

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  1. canucksfan

    canucksfan Registered User

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    Mario won with 63.77% of the vote. Mike Bossy will be added. There was a lot more votes this time compared to the first poll.

    #1 Gretzky(64.71%)
    #2 Lemieux(63.77%)

    Who is #3 and remember to say who to add next. I voted for Howe and add Clarke.
     
  2. Shelby-villains

    Shelby-villains Registered User

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    Voted for Phil Esposito. Please add Yzerman.
     
  3. JWINK19

    JWINK19 southern Devils fan

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    Voted for Gordie, add Yzerman or Brett Hull.
     
  4. Czech Your Math

    Czech Your Math Registered User

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    I voted for Gordie.

    Add Jagr. How can he not be on the next list?
     
  5. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

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    Howe. Add Jagr.
     
  6. KOVALEV10*

    KOVALEV10* Guest

    Voted for Rocket. Definately add Jagr.
     
  7. hfboardsuser

    hfboardsuser Registered User

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    If you're adding Jagr this early, add Stastny as well.

    Stastny:
    Regular season- 1.27 PPG
    Playoffs- 1.13 PPG

    Jagr:
    Regular season- 1.28 PPG
    Playoffs- 1.05 PPG

    One could argue that Jagr is better because Stastny played mostly in the 80s, but one could just as easily argue that Stastny beats the tar out of Jagr's totals playing with Lemieux and playing the extra six seasons in the NHL that Jagr got playing from age in the NHL at 18 onwards, compared to Stastny coming into the NHL at 24.

    Either way, I'd just as soon cool it a wash, and thus Stastny gets in there too.
     
  8. hfboardsuser

    hfboardsuser Registered User

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    Oh and add Dickie Moore, Newsy Lalonde and Joe Malone.
     
  9. KOVALEV10*

    KOVALEV10* Guest

    No these guys are too old. So please dont.
     
  10. pei fan

    pei fan Registered User

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    THEN DON"T CALL IT THE GREATEST FORWARDS OF ALL TIME. :madfire:
     
  11. KOVALEV10*

    KOVALEV10* Guest

    Look be happy Mario was even selected 2nd best. He wouldn't even make my beer league team. Not even my juice league team!
     
  12. Evilo

    Evilo Registered User

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    It's not a wash. Jagr is a much better player than Stastny.
     
  13. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    A wash?

    Hmmmm. Jagr has captured 5 scoring titles, Stastny has captured 0.

    The truth is, Jagr is a top 15 player of all time and Stastny is a top 100 player. Both were great but Jagr was/is definitely greater.
     
  14. KariyaIsGod*

    KariyaIsGod* Guest

    WHile I agree with you, I don't think the scoring titles facotr is a good measuring stick since Stastny was up against prime Gretzky and Lemieux for the Ross...
     
  15. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    While Jagr definitely deserves to be added, and soon, might I add, Trottier and Clarke were both better players and were much better in the clutch. I'd have Terrible Ted Lindsay ahead of Jagr, too.
     
  16. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    True, scoring titles are not the only measure.

    The way I rate players is how many times they finish in the top 7 in the scoring race. And, within that top 7, they get more credit for finishing higher than lower.

    That being said, Jaromir Jagr has spent a lot more time in the top 7 than did stastny. In fact, on my system, Jagr gets a 45.5 rating while Stastny gets a 21. Again, both are excellent but, Jagr's total is phenomenal. By awarding points for top 7 finishes, having Wayne and Mario in the league prevents NOBODY from making a significant impact.

    In my system, Jagr is the 9th greatest scorer of all time, and has the possibility to move up with a great year this season. Stastny is the 30th greatest scorer of all time on my system.

    Both are great but, Jagr is significantly greater.
     
  17. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    I agree that Jagr is greater than Statsny. But from another thread.... In you weighting of the greatest players perhaps you should take into consideration those that finish in the top 20 in scoring rather than just the top 7. As the NHL grew to 17, 18, 21, and fianlly 30 teams to only weight the top 7 scorers perhaps doesn't take into consideration the best players as much as you would like too. If there are 400-700 NHL players then finishind top 20 in scoring is a huge accomplishment. Also being top 20 in goals could be weighted as well as IMO goals are an additional measure of the greatness of a player rather than just points. Since 2 assists can be rewarded per goal and the definitive way to win games is goals I think there needs to be a way to rate players than just points or goals. Goals are worth more than assists. I don't know how much more but certainly a bit more.

    What I am saying is that a player who is top 20 in points for say 13 of 15 years and who is only top 7 in 3 of those years may well be better than a player who is top 4 times but only top 20 6 times in 15 years.

    Once again I am not the one doing all the work compiling the lists that you have Ogopogo. I appreciate your lists alot, just offering my 2 cents since I think your lists are very important and are the best and most definitive lists I have seen. Better even then the top 50 and 100 list from the Hockey News a few years ago. If I ever make my own list I will end up using your list for a base I am sure. Also I suggest a 80-20 or 85-15 break for playoff stats too. Since I understand you are not taking the playoffs into consideration in your lists if you did a split like this then players that are dominant in the playoffs (and on good teams) will get the boost they deserve ie. Oilers, Islanders while those with poor playoffs like Dionne would still get cred for their success though it would score somewhat lower.

    The reason why I offer my suggestions is not that I have a problem with your lists as much as that I consider your lists somewhat as the best and most important definitive lists. Especially becasue most other lists don't weight the early NHL stars. Also though I think you may not consider it is to weight the WHA to some degree in your lists. The WHA was not as good as the NHL but was a league where some of the players maybe 50-100 would have been in the NHL. This was not a minor league. Many stars in that legaue would have been among the best players in the NHL too.

    Just my 2 cents and once again credit for your great lists and hard work, analysis and research.
     
  18. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Thank you for the suggestions and ideas, you make some very good points and, as I tweak things, I may add some of these concepts.

    I have done scoring lists for the WHA, NHA and PCHA - the three other "major" professional hockey leagues that have existed. To this point, the lists exist as separate entities from the NHL list but, I am seriously considering making a consolidated list for comparison purposes. Players like Cyclone Taylor, Joe Malone and Bobby Hull would move dramatically higher when this process is completed.
     
  19. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    Cyclone Taylor is one who should be added to this poll sooner rather than later, even though he never played in the NHL. Best player in the history of the game until Howie Morenz and Eddie Shore came along. Although should Taylor be listed as a forward, or a defenceman?
     
  20. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Bobby Hull is surely one of the greatest players of all -time. I haven't consulted your all-time list and I don't know where you consider him but he surely left behind 2-4 dominant NHL seasons by joining with the WHA. When he joined the WHA he was not nearly as old as Howe and would almost certainly been among thw best scorers in the NHL until around 1976. He might not have been the leading goal scorer or points scorer but he would have probably got close to 50 goals and 100 points in the NHL for 3 or 4 seasons.

    IMO - giving my list of the greatest goal scorers in history (taking into consideration only post 1945 or so)

    1) Lemieux
    2) Gretzky
    3) Richard (remember goals only)
    4) Bobby Hull
    5) Gordie Howe
    6) Mike Bossy
    7) Brett Hull
    8) Phil Esposito
    9) Jari Kurri
    10) Cam Neely (taking into consideration his injuries and the lower scoring era he got alot of his goals)

    This takes into consideration playoffs and the eras they scored in. HM Lafleur and I awknowledge a top 10 list is much easier than a top 10-200 list. And Neely is debatable but he got alot of goals in few games in a generally lower scoring era than some.
     
  21. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Here are the 50 greatest NHL goal scorers, as per my sytem:

    1 Gordie Howe
    2 Bobby Hull
    3 Maurice Richard
    4 Phil Esposito
    5 Wayne Gretzky
    6 Mike Bossy
    7 Cy Denneny
    8 Cecil Dye
    9 Nels Stewart
    10 Mario Lemieux
    11 Howie Morenz
    12 Jean Beliveau
    13 Charlie Conacher
    14 Brett Hull
    15 Roy Conacher
    16 Bill Cook
    Frank Mahovlich
    18 Ted Lindsay
    19 Pavel Bure
    Stan Mikita
    21 Guy Lafleur
    22 Bernie Geoffrion
    23 Marcel Dionne
    Jaromir Jagr
    25 Teemu Selanne
    26 Bryan Hextall
    27 Peter Bondra
    28 Gordie Drillon
    Joe Malone
    30 Newsy Lalonde
    31 Steve Yzerman
    32 Jari Kurri
    33 Harvey Jackson
    34 Aurel Joliat
    35 Dickie Moore
    36 Camille Henry
    Michel Goulet
    38 Norm Ullman
    Tim Kerr
    40 Cecil Dillon
    41 Marty Barry
    Doug Bentley
    43 David Schriner
    44 Andy Bathgate
    John LeClair
    46 Jarome Iginla
    Hector Blake
    48 Herb Cain
    Lanny McDonald
    50 Rick Martin
     
  22. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    I think Neely definitely warrants consideration in any debate about the top goal-scorers ever. He wasn't part of a lower scoring era per say - his first three all-star seasons - 1989, 1990 and 1991 had around seven goals per game. Even though scoring dipped to 6.5 goals per game in his 50/50 season, a lot of players still had really good statistical seasons that year.

    But he is No. 12 in all-time goals per game, even though he essentially lost two-and-a-half years of his prime. Even more impressive is he's fourth all-time in playoff goals per game. His performance in the 1991 playoffs should go down as one of the most dominant in the history of the NHL post-season. Boston was lost the moment he went down.

    Only Mark Messier has combined goal scoring and physical play over the last 30 years.
     
  23. canucksfan

    canucksfan Registered User

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    IMO Jagr is not good enough to be added onto the list. Like a poster said earlier Clarke and Trottier were better players than Jagr and both unlike Jagr were clutch. That being said, it looks like Jagr will be added.
     
  24. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    I never said Jagr wasn't clutch. I said Trottier and Clarke were better in clutch situations, a big part of why they should be added ahead of Jagr. (Along with their overall all-round play).

    Jagr has scored some very big goals in his career, has two Cup rings (all be it as a secondary player for both), and had some excellent playoffs - witness carrying Pittsburgh to an upset win over New Jersey in 1999.
     
  25. El_Scoobo

    El_Scoobo Registered User

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    Voted for good old Gordie. Add Yzerman.
     
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