Greatest Forwards of All Time #15

[John Flyers Fan]

Clarke, add the Big M.

 

[El_Scoobo]

voted for Clarke for the fourth time. Add Joe Sakic.

I don't really want to jump in too much here, but I don't see why some people think Francis is so great. No way should this guy get consideration for top 20 forward of all-time imo. I've never really seen that much in him.

just my opinion.

 

[Sens Rule]

Bobby Clarke for the 6th straight round.

Add Joe Sakic.

I think I also have voted for Clarke for 6 straight now maybe 7. Glad to see he is finally ahead and might win this one. I'll also agree with adding Sakic.

 

[pappyline]

Voted lindsay again. Add either Max Bentley or the Big M>

 

[canucksfan]

Canucksfan, I know we've asked this before, but are you still looking at a top 20? Or are you going to extend this one. (The number of voters in the last poll indicates it's still going strong).

I orginally was going to do a top 20 but since it's going very well I will continue to at least a top 30.

 

[JWINK19]

Ditto too

Ditto three.

 

[Evilo]

I wasn't just looking at points. Why don't you tell me which years you thought he wa a top 20, top 10 and top 5 player.

As I said, Francis' value can't be measured in stats. He puts up tons of points (may I remind everyone here his career numbers?), but he also was a great leader (my point about taking a weak team further than it should), his longevity, his defensive game, etc... and that from the first time he stepped foot on the ice in the NHL.
The Sakics and Yzermans needed a few good losing seasons to understand the concept of team play.
That was obvious for Francis.
So it's not really how many times he was top 5 that counts.
But rather the fact that he was one of the best all around players ever AND just about never let down his team in any season.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

As I said, Francis' value can't be measured in stats. He puts up tons of points (may I remind everyone here his career numbers?), but he also was a great leader (my point about taking a weak team further than it should), his longevity, his defensive game, etc... and that from the first time he stepped foot on the ice in the NHL.
The Sakics and Yzermans needed a few good losing seasons to understand the concept of team play.
That was obvious for Francis.
So it's not really how many times he was top 5 that counts.
But rather the fact that he was one of the best all around players ever AND just about never let down his team in any season.

So you're saying that I'm right, he was a good player for a long time, but rarely great. Don't just go by points, factor in everything and tell me when he was a top 5, 10 or 20 player in the league.

Francis had one nice playoffs while not in Pittsburgh. He was a big part of the Canes run, but he certainly didn't carry them. The BBC line and excellent goaltending were as much apart of that run as Francis was.

How often did you see Francis play in a Whalers jersey ??

 

[Evilo]

A few times before he became a Penguin.

You avoid my point that Sakic and Yzerman needed plenty of year to understand the concept of all around play.
If you factor in all the aspects of the game, yes Francis was a top 20 forward through out his career.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

A few times before he became a Penguin.

You avoid my point that Sakic and Yzerman needed plenty of year to understand the concept of all around play.
If you factor in all the aspects of the game, yes Francis was a top 20 forward through out his career.

While Francis may have been more well-rounded at the start of his career, he was at least a step or two behind the others offensively:

First 7 seasons:

Francis: 498 games - 567 points
Sakic: 508 games - 626 points
Yzerman: 514 games - 692 points

Yzerman was clearly the best of the three players during the early part of their career, when none had much talent surrounding them.

Detroit - missed playoffs twice, won two playoff series
Hartford - missed playoffs four times, won one playoff series
Quebec - missed playoffs five times, won zero playoff series

I was speaking about a top 20 player, not just forward. If you're going to consider someone as one of the 20 or 30 best forwards of all-time, than thet player had to have years where he was a top 5 or top 10 player (including defenseman and goalies) in the game.

If you look at the top 15 so far, every player there has been the best player on the planet for a stretch of time. It's no shame being a Hall of Famer, but not on the level of the truly dominant forwards in the games history.

 

[Evilo]

Well I guess it's a matter of preference.
You think highly of someone that dominates its era but doesn't necessarily show consistency through out his career.
I happen to think that someone who's always among the best is just as valuable.

 

[Randall Graves*]

Is someone saying Francis is better than Sakic? Sakic has basically been a top 10 player for atleast a decade..

Anyways I voted for Yzerman, it's a toss up between Geoffrion and Sakic for me...

I'll go with Sakic.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Well I guess it's a matter of preference.
You think highly of someone that dominates its era but doesn't necessarily show consistency through out his career.
I happen to think that someone who's always among the best is just as valuable.

Dominance and consistancy are both important. The best of the best combine both.

Yzerman, Sakic and Francis have all been remarkably consistant. Yzerman and Sakic were more dominant and their peak than Francis was.

 

[MXD]

Voted Dionne for the 2nd straight time.
Add Killer or Gilbert Perreault

 

[MXD]

While Francis may have been more well-rounded at the start of his career, he was at least a step or two behind the others offensively:

First 7 seasons:

Francis: 498 games - 567 points
Sakic: 508 games - 626 points
Yzerman: 514 games - 692 points

Yzerman was clearly the best of the three players during the early part of their career, when none had much talent surrounding them.

Detroit - missed playoffs twice, won two playoff series
Hartford - missed playoffs four times, won one playoff series
Quebec - missed playoffs five times, won zero playoff series

I was speaking about a top 20 player, not just forward. If you're going to consider someone as one of the 20 or 30 best forwards of all-time, than thet player had to have years where he was a top 5 or top 10 player (including defenseman and goalies) in the game.

If you look at the top 15 so far, every player there has been the best player on the planet for a stretch of time. It's no shame being a Hall of Famer, but not on the level of the truly dominant forwards in the games history.

No offense, but early Yzerman career Wings were MUCH worse than early Sakic career Nordiques...

 

[Lars]

Steve Yzerman.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

No offense, but early Yzerman career Wings were MUCH worse than early Sakic career Nordiques...

I didn't say which of the three teams was better or worse.

As per the Red Wings from 83-89 per Quebec from 88-94, It pretty comparable. Quebec probably had more talent, but the Adams division from 88-94 was far more difficult than the Norris of 83-89, which was an absolute joke most years.

 

[BM67]

Well I guess it's a matter of preference.
You think highly of someone that dominates its era but doesn't necessarily show consistency through out his career.
I happen to think that someone who's always among the best is just as valuable.

The only thing is that he wasn't "always among the best", he was generally just below level of the best. Case in point, he only received votes for the Hart trophy 4 times in his 23 year career.

1985-86 – HART: T10th 1 (0-0-1); 1986-87 – HART: 9th 3 (0-1-0); 1997-98 – HART: T15th 6 (0-0-0-2-0); 2001-02 – HART: 6th 48 (1-2-3-2-3); Total: 1-3-4-4-3

 

[Evilo]

The only thing is that he wasn't "always among the best", he was generally just below level of the best. Case in point, he only received votes for the Hart trophy 4 times in his 23 year career.

1985-86 – HART: T10th 1 (0-0-1); 1986-87 – HART: 9th 3 (0-1-0); 1997-98 – HART: T15th 6 (0-0-0-2-0); 2001-02 – HART: 6th 48 (1-2-3-2-3); Total: 1-3-4-4-3

If your argument is that Francis is for ever underrated, I know that. Case in point : this thread.

 

[BM67]

If your argument is that Francis is for ever underrated, I know that. Case in point : this thread.

Compensating for his underrating by overrating him is not the way to go.

Teammates with Hart votes (other than Mario and Jagr)
85-86 - Kevin Dineen 1 (0-0-1)
86-87 - Mike Liut 39 (1-7-13); Kevin Dineen 1 (0-0-1)
90-91 - Mark Recchi 1 (0-0-1)
91-92 - Kevin Stevens 4 (0-1-1)
97-98 - Tom Barrasso 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
00-01 - Arturs Irbe 1 (0-0-0-0-1); Jeff O'Neill 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
We'll also ignore Toronto.
Francis: 1-3-4-4-3 Others: 1-8-17-1-2

 

[joe_shannon_1983*]

I agree with anyone in this thread that said that Sakic > Francis.

Compatring Sakic and Francis is like comparing Yzerman and Modano. While Francis is good, he didn't put up nearly as many top 5 or top 10 calibre seasons as Sakic did.

The same goes to Modano as he compares to Yzerman.

Heck, I would even say that Yzerman and Modano are closer than Sakic and Francis are.

How many years was Francis a top 20 player in the NHL?