Grade the new markets!

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by Blackhawkswincup, Jul 14, 2007.

  1. Blackhawkswincup

    Blackhawkswincup Seabrook = Thief

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    In order of when team joined market!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The markets league went to in 90's and 00's. Grade there progress and how you see there future.

    1-San Jose (Fans A-, On ice success B+, Future A)
    San Jose has had a great fanbase since coming into the league and has fielded many Cinderella teams (94 and 95) and good all around teams (00's teams). I see this franchise continuing its playoff runs and being a perennial cup contender for foreseeable future.

    2-Tampa Bay (Fans B-, On Ice Success B, Future A-)
    TB has struggled through much of its history but even during its horrid years still would draw respectable and has for last 4 years been one of US hockey's best cities. They won a cup and over last 4 seasons have been playoff team. Before that was dark times but recent success has helped solidify them as respectable franchise. They should continue to draw well and have helped cement there place as a long term success and should continue to do well in TB area.

    3-Ottawa (Fans B, On Ice Success A, Future B)
    They have been the best at fielding competitive teams since expansion age came to an end (93-96). But at times there fans haven't been as supportive as other Canadian teams. They do have a solid fan base and a good team so the future looks bright for them. Plus they are no longer limited by Toronto's hold on Ontario hockey's fanbase. (Early 90's many in Ottawa area still were fans of Toronto and Montreal since they grew up Toronto or Montreal fans.)

    4-Dallas (Fans A+, On Ice Success A+, Future A+)
    The move of North Stars was a major disappointment but in Dallas team has built great fanbase and the Franchise has reached a level of success that they never had in Minnesota. Should continue to be one of US hockey's best cities. They will need to retool though as they are getting a bit long in the tooth as far as players go.

    5-Florida (Fans C-, On Ice Success C, Future C)
    They have drawn good crowds when successful but when they aren't fielding playoff team they draw very little. The team has had limited success in NHL (96 Finals the high point). The team only has a good future in Miami area due to 30 year lease that will be hard to break. Will continue to be up and down with fans until a long term successful stretch of playoff and cup caliber teams is established. They might not be to far off but they have a history of letting promising teams fall apart.

    6-Anaheim (Fans B-, On Ice Success B, Future A-)
    They have drawn respectable to great crowds during there entire existence in NHL. The Cup should help solidify there standing in LA-Ana area. They have fielded good teams but also some mediocre ones. But they are the 1st of the expansion teams to make it to 2 finals. 1-1 aint bad in there short history. They should continue to draw great with good team they have built and that will only help there long term success.

    7-Colorado (Fans A+, On Ice Success A+, Future A+)
    They were moved to city and have built a legacy of success and now have the #2 fanbase in Denver area. They have only missed playoffs once since moving there and even then it was close. Should continue on as one of hockey's premier franchises.

    8-Phoenix (Fans D, On Ice Success C, Future C)
    The novelty carried this team thru its early years along with having talented teams. But since franchise has fallen off map both on the Ice and off it. Team has struggled with attendance and has been in constant rebuilding for last half decade. A new arena is a bright spot but until team fields a legit cup contender it will be hard to see Phoenix as anything else other than a disaster.

    9-Carolina (Fans B-,On Ice success B, Future B)
    The initial move out of Hartford was a disaster as Greensboro didn't support them one bit. The move to Raleigh helped alot and the cup run has grown there fan base. They are 1-1 in the Finals and have several division titles. They are looking more and more like a long term hockey market each year. Should continue to grow hockey in Carolina's.

    10-Nashville (Fans B-, On Ice Success B-, Future C)
    The casual fans have not been a problem for this franchise (The lower bowl prices are always sold out). But lack of Corporate support, Lack of marquee fan base (Rich fans who buy the expensive seats on regular basis) and Lack of a permanent ownership hurts this team bad. They could still prove to be a success long term, but until there future is resolved they will continue to struggle. KC or Ontario here they come?

    11-Atlanta (Fans B-, On Ice Success C, Future B-)
    They have drawn respectable crowds since there establishment and last 2 years have seen some on ice progress (GM might have screwed that up though). With continued on ice success the teams potential can only grow. They already are outdrawing the Hawks (NBA) by significant numbers and the Metro City population offers great potential for the market.

    12-Columbus (Fans A, On Ice Success F, Future B-)
    They have a great fanbase but that could be a risk due to the continued struggles of franchise. They need a playoff appearance soon. The franchise cant afford 3 or 4 more years of struggle. They have a great arena, good sized city and large fan base but they are a team in danger because of poor product on ice.

    13-Minnesota (Fans A, On Ice Success B-, Future A)
    Hockey should never have left Minnesota but it did (Good thing in long run as Stars are great success). NHL fixed its mistake and fans have been great. But only 2 playoff appearances is not an impressive feat. They should continue to get better on ice and should be around NHL in Minnesota forever (Hopefully)
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2007
  2. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    You forgot Carolina
     
  3. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Unmitigated success:

    Minnesota
    Dallas
    Colorado
    Ottawa
    San Jose

    Solid franchises

    Columbus
    Tampa
    Anaheim

    Struggling a bit so far at times (not at risk right now)

    Florida
    Atlanta
    Carolina

    Really Struggling and at risk of relocating within 5 years if things don't brighten

    Nashville
    Phoenix
     
  4. Irish Blues

    Irish Blues Still on hiatus

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    Knowing how this kind of stuff degenerates, this thread is officially on probation.
     
  5. Clarence Beeks

    Clarence Beeks Registered User

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    Consistently one of the top drawing teams in the NHL, which you identify, yet you give them the third lowest grade for fans? I am in no way shape or form a fan of the fans here, but to say what you said, then give them that grade, on par with Nashville and Atlanta is just absurd. Their fans are more passionate than a few "traditional" markets that I've been to. Like them or not, they sell out. Every night. At least provide some rationale for that one.
     
  6. Fugu

    Fugu Guest

    What in tarnation does this beauty contest have to do with a business discussion?
     
  7. Blackhawkswincup

    Blackhawkswincup Seabrook = Thief

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    Yes i did i will fix that mistake.

    Well i am asking for opinions on the fanbases, on ice success and futures of these franchise so i would say that is Buisness discussion.

    During there struggles in late 90's and early 00 they drew about the same numbers as Atlanta and Nashville during there non playoff years so i think there grade fits them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2007
  8. Blades of Glory

    Blades of Glory Troll Captain

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    Pretty fair to me. Giving Nashville a B- in the "on-ice success" category is rather generous, they've only made the playoffs three times in their 8 year existence and haven't won a playoff series.
     
  9. Blackhawkswincup

    Blackhawkswincup Seabrook = Thief

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    They had 5 years that they were average team. And 3 good years so i think a B- is fair. They have never been horrible like other Expansion teams were early on.
     
  10. Brazz

    Brazz This boat is 4 real!

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    How can you give Tampa, Carolina and Anaheim a B for on ice success? they all won the Stanley cup, that is an A+ in my books.
     
  11. Blackhawkswincup

    Blackhawkswincup Seabrook = Thief

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    You have too look at there entire history in that market. Technically my Blackhawks have 3 Cups in our history but overall we have been bad more then we have been good.
     
  12. Crossfire Hurricane

    Crossfire Hurricane Formally Mr. Degenerate, Esq. Sponsor

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    But one Cup in a more brief history should hold more weight, I think. I agree with the general idea, but I think they've had just as much success as the Dallas Stars, considering the fact that the Stars were an established team before leaving Minnesota, while TB started fresh.
     
  13. so not making the playoffs since 1999-2000 gets you a "C" for on-ice success?

    man i wish you were one of my professor's in college.....:biglaugh:

    my grades for florida: Fans: B- On ice success: F Future: B

    the one season florida had success, they were a sabres-esque success. they sold out the entire season the following year (96-97) about 20 games into it i think. it was a smaller arena, but there was plenty of buzz.

    despite the incompetence since then, they've never averaged under 15,000 this decade.
    not true at all. tampa bay averaged 11,511 in 98-99. they were looking pretty bad for a while. but in fairness to them, they were an absolute doormat as well so it's unfair to judge. no market aside from toronto and montreal will put up with the product tampa had to put up with in the 90's or florida has had to put up with in 2k. none.
     
    Last edited by moderator : Jul 15, 2007
  14. Clarence Beeks

    Clarence Beeks Registered User

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    In your other posts you say that you have to look at the entire history in that market. So, let's look at their attendance compared to other teams over the period since they've come into the league and the “grades” you gave each team why don't we?

    Team / your grade / average attendance / current arena capacity / former arena capacities
    Dallas – A+ - 18,026 (18,532) (17,001)
    Colorado – A+ - 17,941 (18,007) (16,061)
    Columbus – A – 17,317 (18,136)
    Minnesota – A – 18,403 (18,064)
    San Jose – A- - 16,135 (17,496) (11,089)
    Ottawa – B – 17,000 (19,153) (10,585)
    Tampa Bay – B- - 16,434 (19,758) (10,425) (26,000)
    Anaheim – B- - 14,267 (17,147)
    Carolina – B- - 14,507 (18,730) (21,273)
    Nashville – B- -14,449 (17,113)
    Atlanta – B- - 14,835 (18,750)
    Florida – C- - 15,585 (19,250) (14,696)
    Phoenix – D – 14,442 (17,779) (16,210)

    Way to nail the obvious ones with “A’s”, but you totally botched essentially everything below that, if you go merely by the logic you have stated. You gave Tampa Bay a "B-", the same grade you gave teams that average over 2,000 less fans per game.


    So, what? The Avalanche have won two Cups and you give them an A+ for on ice product. Dallas has won one Cup and you give them an A+ for on ice product. They aren’t new teams, they’re relocated teams and they have both been bad more than they have been good. You should give them a B- based on your logic.
     
  15. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Then why give the Senators an A? They were one of the worst teams in hockey history when they first started out.... and while they've been a contender for years, they've never won it all.
     
  16. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    I have to agree on this. Tampa definately has a better fanbase/attendance than Carolina, Nashville, Atlanta and Anaheim. And I'd give the Senators a higher score as well. Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver have had many seasons where they failed to sell 1000 or 2000 tickets a game since the Sens entered the NHL. The Sens are as good at drawing fans as any Canadian team except Montreal and Toronto.

    Most teams don't sell out every game every year regardless of performance of their team. I'd give SanJose, Ottawa and Tampa a B+ for fans.
     
  17. Blackhawkswincup

    Blackhawkswincup Seabrook = Thief

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    I stated my opinions and you all are stating your opinions. That was intention of thread. Keep going.
     
  18. Blackhawkswincup

    Blackhawkswincup Seabrook = Thief

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    They are new markets. It doesn't matter that they were old franchise. They still went into untested market (Dallas) and a failed market (Colorado). During there times in those markets they have been successful thus the A+. North Star and Nordiques days didn't effect whether fans in Dallas and Denver went to game. Thus they are irrelevant.
     
  19. Crossfire Hurricane

    Crossfire Hurricane Formally Mr. Degenerate, Esq. Sponsor

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    On-ice product makes a HUGE difference in a new market. The Avs' strong play is the main reason for the sell-out streak. Is it coincidence that it ended the year the Avs missed the playoffs? See: St. Louis before and after the lock out.
     
  20. Clarence Beeks

    Clarence Beeks Registered User

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    I disagree, both organizations had good teams right from the get go in the new market. I can't see how you can say that's irrelevant. It most definitely has an impact on the evaluation. They had a talent base for their franchises already established, which takes many years to build. That's what makes what Anaheim and Tampa have done so special. When evaluating the on-ice product, at least, Carolina, Colorado, Dallas, and Phoenix should not be in the same discussion as the others.

    Another thing to consider when using attendnace as a factor, as you have, Ottawa, San Jose and Tampa all started out in extremely small buildings (i.e. about 10,000-11,000 seats), so that skews their numbers downward.
     
  21. Bear of Bad News

    Bear of Bad News HFBoards Escape Goat

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    Does that mean a no-go for the eagerly awaited follow-up thread, "Grade the new posters!"?
     
  22. nyr7andcounting

    nyr7andcounting Registered User

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    I think Ottawa, Colorado, and especially Minny should all be higher on the list. Plus, I don't really get the final order made by the original poster. Grades are given for each team, but it doesn't seem like they determine the final order. How are Anaheim, Minny, Carolina, and Colorado behind Florida when they have a higher grade in each of the 3 categories.
     
  23. Sotnos

    Sotnos Registered User

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    Well sure they did, those markets got good teams dumped in their laps, of course that affects attendance. Which attracts more fans: a new team in town that's winning or a new team in town that's completely horrible?

    It went beyond being a doormat. Espo had been forced to sell off the talent by the Japanese owners, and the ownership situation was up in the air at that time. Shaky ownership coupled with a bad team equals pissed off fans who won't buy tickets (see: St. Louis or dozens of other examples). The team ruined any early goodwill they may have built, and once PS&E bought the team they had to start building it all over again. They've done pretty well in the last 7-8 years, I'd say.
    That's very true, but some people here will deny it 'til they're blue in the face.

    :biglaugh: Now THAT would be entertaining! I saw this one yesterday and figured it wouldn't even last this long.
     
  24. Fugu

    Fugu Guest


    IB is having a heretofore unseen lack of desire to fully utilize those Admin powers. Leading us to ask... of course... does absolute power indeed not corrupt absolutely?




    [run for cover]
     
  25. Clarence Beeks

    Clarence Beeks Registered User

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    How about because the guy didn't order them in terms of overall grade, but rather year that they came into the league? :help:
     

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