Gordi Howe

Wisent

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Nov 15, 2003
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I don`t think that Howe was screwed because of what he earned, I give you that Ogo, the thing is that the boss used malevolently exploited Howe`s naivety or believe in the good of people. I am quite sure that if he had known the truth he would have gotten a better contract. That is the screwing part for me. There is still no doubt in my mind that Howe made a decent living, just, he was exploited. Sure he could have gone anywhere but why should he? He was still earning more than the average Joe. But still I would hardly call it being treated fair.

Another example, Chinese workers nowadays are exploited, most of them. Still they are better off than before because now they get paid at least. Still they have no unions, working for slave wages. There is competition for them too, they could go somewhere else but what good would it do?
 

Sens Rule

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Sep 22, 2005
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Well Gordie had a good life from hockey for sure. but he was screwed over by the owners for decades. Gordie gave far, far, far more to hockey than he got back. If he wants to take a skate as a publicity stunt I hold nothing against him for it.

Qupting myself. I said Gordie had a good life from hockey. And I said he screwed over. And he was because the Wings told him a blantant lie to his face that he was the highest paid player in the NHL. Whether the whole salary system is was out of whack and unfair to players in the 1940's to 1960's isn't the point. Gordie was screwed beyond that by being blatantly lied to by the Wings. And he was the Babe Ruth of hockey essentially. What people would make in potash mines is irrlevant to the argument, as is the fact that 2nd or 3rd liners make $3 million today. Gordie was intentionally lied to and taken advantage of because of his trusting and good nature. He did not even suspect he was being screwed over the way he was.

But whatever. My point is that Gordie gave so much to hockey. More than pretty much anyone ever. And if he wants to do a publicity stunt and skate as a 67 year old. How can we hold that against him? The guy earned every right to do anything he wants in hockey.
 

Wetcoaster

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There's even the documented instance latter in his career where his teammates earned more than him and he was led to believe otherwise. When he found out the truth, he demanded more.

Negociating contracts with inequality of information is absolutly unjust.
Players were fined if they disclosed or discussed salaries in those days. It was not until Goodenow took over that there was salary disclosure.

Bob Baun was the one who told Howe what he was being paid when he signed with the Wings. Baun had just been signed for twice what Howe was making. Unbeknownst to both of them Carl Brewer who had just been signed was making more than both of them.

It was during the 1969–70 season —Gordie Howe's 24th season in the NHL — that he finally discovered how badly the Red Wings had been treating him financially. " Howe had been led to believe that he was the highest-paid player on the team, and every year, he simply signed the contract they put in front of him,"Foster writes."It was (Bob) Baun who broke the news that he was making twice as much as Gordie's $45,000 — but the real kicker was that Brewer was earning three times as much!"
http://www.nysun.com/article/43566

Bob Baun told me the same story when I spoke with him several years ago at a resort north of Toronto. He joked he was the guy responsible for Gordie getting the biggest raise he ever received from the Wings.

He told Gordie that he (Howe) was personally responsible for suppressing wages league wide by being paid so low. Howe did not believe him. Baun said he could tell Howe what he was making and then told Howe that he Baun was making twice what Gordie was bing paid. Apparently Howe was some steamed at the time and was ready to take management apart. He was quickly signed to a new contract which more than doubled his salary (but still left him making less than Brewer).
 

scribe114

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Jul 12, 2005
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The NHL was part of a free market. Gordie was free to go and do anything else with his life, he did not have to "suffer" as an NHL hockey player all those years. He could have been a lawyer, accountant or anything else.

Well seeing that Howe failed the 8th grade twice (His schoolmates referred to him as "doughhead") and quit school soon afterwards, we can probably assume he was in no position to pass the Saskatchewan Bar Exam if he decided to leave the game of Hockey in the mid to late 60's. :shakehead
 

Wetcoaster

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Well seeing that Howe failed the 8th grade twice (His schoolmates referred to him as "doughhead") and quit school soon afterwards, we can probably assume he was in no position to pass the Saskatchewan Bar Exam if he decided to leave the game of Hockey in the mid to late 60's. :shakehead
You did say the SASKATCHEWAN Bar Exam, right????:biglaugh:

Hey if Serge Kurawa (Director of public Prosecutions) who prosecuted (and helped wrongfully convict) David Milgaard could be a lawyer - Howe would have been no worse. He also brokered a deal to keep the guilty plea of Larry Fisher (whose DNA was later matched to the alleged Milgaard victim) to similar rapes in the neighbourhood a secret.

In a 1991 interview with a Winnipeg Sun reporter, Kujawa was quoted as saying he was not concerned with Milgaard's guilt or innocence, but with the media and lawyers "selling us down the river."

"The whole judicial system is at issue -- it's worth more than one person," Kujawa said in the December 1991 article.

Former Crown prosecutor Serge Kujawa said Thursday he still isn't sure about the DNA that linked Larry Fisher, not David Milgaard, to murder victim Gail Miller.

"Nothing is perfectly proven and I don't know how the substance that was tested on those clothes got on that. I don't know where it came from," he told the commission of inquiry into Milgaard's wrongful conviction.

Gordie would have done a better job. Or if not delivered an elbow.
 

raleh

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Oct 17, 2005
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You did say the SASKATCHEWAN Bar Exam, right????:biglaugh:

Hey if Serge Kurawa (Director of public Prosecutions) who prosecuted (and helped wrongfully convict) David Milgaard could be a lawyer - Howe would have been no worse. He also brokered a deal to keep the guilty plea of Larry Fisher (whose DNA was later matched to the alleged Milgaard victim) to similar rapes in the neighbourhood a secret.





Coleen would have done a better job. Or if not delivered an elbow.

Fixed it for you Wetcoaster!
 

LVIsles*

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I lost a lot of respect for him the day he went for that 5th decade of play as a 67 years old.

His longevity was already legendary and in a good way, there was no need for this gimmick of a record.

I dont see a problem with it,, actually I wondered why he never played in the 2000's


And anyone know why he played in the WHA in the 70s? Why didnt he continue playing in the NHL,, he was still productive as he came back to the NHL in 79-80
 

pappyline

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Jul 3, 2005
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I dont see a problem with it,, actually I wondered why he never played in the 2000's


And anyone know why he played in the WHA in the 70s? Why didnt he continue playing in the NHL,, he was still productive as he came back to the NHL in 79-80
He did retire from the Wings in 1971 when he was still a productive player. Publicly, I believe it was to do with an arthritic wrist. However, the Wings probably forced him to retire to a office position. When his sons were drafted by the WHA (too young to be drafted by the NHL in those days), Gordie decided to come out of retirement to play with them in Houston.
 

Ogopogo*

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Well seeing that Howe failed the 8th grade twice (His schoolmates referred to him as "doughhead") and quit school soon afterwards, we can probably assume he was in no position to pass the Saskatchewan Bar Exam if he decided to leave the game of Hockey in the mid to late 60's. :shakehead

So the Wings should voluntarily double his salary because he didn't do well in school?
 

scribe114

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Jul 12, 2005
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So the Wings should voluntarily double his salary because he didn't do well in school?

No that was in response to the statement that Howe could have been an attorney if he decided to quit Hockey. My point was getting through law school with a 7th grade education would have been a bit tough for Mr.Howe.

The Red Wings were dealing in supposed good faith with a naive bumpkin.
 

ClassicHockey

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May 22, 2005
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I do have different views on Gordie Howe for sure. I think that Howe was a dominant player in the 50's using his skill set but also using his bigger size that was an advantage to him. No denying his greatness here. But, I wonder if he would have been successful if he wasn't such a dirty player. I think he would have been just as successful if he played the game legally because he was that good. So, in my view, his sneak attacks from behind on opponents to visciously cut them up was just a product of his meaness. In all the times I've watched Howe play live or on tape, I have yet to see him challenge or hit another player head on. To me, Howe played a cowardly type of game.

Its true that Howe had a reputation as one of the best fighters in the game. That comes from his one fight with Fontinato. Yes, he won the fight and hurt Fontinato but he was hurt himself in the fight. One Howe punch early broke Fontinato's nose and the Ranger player was fighting blindly. There are differing versions of how one-sided it really was.

But Howe fought so few times before that Fontinato fight and hardly ever after that.
And that is because of the opponents fearing Howe's sneaky stickwork more than anything else. It was truly something to be fearful of. Howe fought early in his career but did not always fare that well - and he fought smaller players almost everytime. When I show people video of Howe getting demolished in a fight with the much smaller Bill Juzda in 1952, they are surprised of course. After the Fontinato fight, Howe was challenged including one time with Orland Kurtenbach but Howe wouldn't drop his stick. For all of Howe's toughness, he didn't really act as a protector for smaller teammates. He did for Marty and Mark but not his other teammates.

And this 'Gordie Howe hat-trick' is a bunch of nonsense. Howe never did the feat himself.

As for Howe being screwed by Detroit management, that is true but mostly of his own doing. Howe has been portrayed as lacking intelligence because of his lack of education but I also think that he had a lack of courage to stand up to authority.

One thing that I wonder about is that Howe should have known what other players were making. I say that because he had Ted Lindsay as a teammate for so many years. They were close then and I find it hard to believe that Lindsay would have been too frightened to tell Howe what he was making.

This was around the time when Lindsay tried to set up the player's association in 1956. It was very courageous of Lindsay and others around the league to confront the NHL owners of the time. The association was effectively killed when Gordie Howe took the Red Wings out of the association after Lindsay was traded to Chicago.

Howe was the star and he was the one player who could have made a difference. But he turned his back on his fellow hockey players. The Detroit management, who had encouraged Howe to do that, still treated him badly financially.

It's well documented how bad the NHL owners were but Gordie Howe can only blame himself. He couldn't stand up to the ownership on his own and couldn't stand up to the ownership when he had all the players fighting along with him in the aborted organization.

Gordie Howe was a popular player among fans but he's not the type of player that I admire. Even today, in interviews, players are telling all kinds of stories of how viscious Howe was with his stick and elbows cutting players mostly when they weren't looking and mostly for no apparent reason. If another, lesser player, did those things, he would be villified - but not Howe. Even Mark Howe writes that his dad would not be able to play that way in today's hockey - the rules and opponents wouldn't allow it.

Bobby Hull, Maurice Richard, Bobby Orr and other truly great players were antogonized on the ice so much more than Howe was. No denying how great a hockey player Gordie Howe was but it seems to me that Howe had a 'free ride' in comparisons to what those other players had to put up with.

And, Gordie Howe has himself to blame for how badly he was treated financially by the Red Wings. Because he was so valuable a player, he was the one guy that actually could have challenged the owner - but I supposed he lacked the courage to do so. He never did like to face an opponent head on.




Oh how I would love for classichockey to get a crack at this.
 

espo*

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As a collector of classic games I have to say that I was always impressed by Howes hockey sense and passing. He seemed to understand time and space like some of the other all time greats. That part of his game really is under-rated IMO and he just wasn't this big powerfull guy that controled the slot area like a lot of other power forwards.

I've actually seen Gordie play live for Hartford when I was a kid and, while I fully respect him as an all time great, he was so dirty he made me want to puke. He seemed to elbow and spear anyone within 10 feet of him.

Wow,you've been watching the game a long time.

actually, the "dirtininess" out of him is just what i like to hear.

All time Great.Underated because of time.
 

espo*

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Good post there by classichockey.

who apparently...........does watch the classics.

would love to see a lot of those complete games myself.
 

Ogopogo*

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They should've been in a situation where someone else would've if they didn't.

But there wasn't so Howe could either negotiate the best deal he could and enjoy it or he could do something else. It's not really complicated. I am just saying that Howe's salary was a function of Howe's negotiating. Did management mislead him? Sure, but that is negotiating. They were better at it than Howe. Gordie still signed the contract.
 

Ogopogo*

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Of course not. They should pay him in relation to his peers and treat a loyal employee in an ethical manner which they did not.

Nalyd descibed it perfectky in his post.

It's business. I have never had an employer offer me more money simply because the work I did was worth more than my paycheque was. That is just reality.
 

Ogopogo*

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No that was in response to the statement that Howe could have been an attorney if he decided to quit Hockey. My point was getting through law school with a 7th grade education would have been a bit tough for Mr.Howe.

The Red Wings were dealing in supposed good faith with a naive bumpkin.

It is irrelevant what Howe could have done outside of hockey - he had all the opportunity an more than any of us had.

The Wings were playing hard ball with Howe and he was too naive to play hard ball back.
That is as much Howe's fault as anybody's.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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But there wasn't so Howe could either negotiate the best deal he could and enjoy it or he could do something else. It's not really complicated. I am just saying that Howe's salary was a function of Howe's negotiating. Did management mislead him? Sure, but that is negotiating. They were better at it than Howe. Gordie still signed the contract.

I'm saying that the system in play was inherently unfair and the system itself screwed every player in the NHL out of they're fair market value.
 

Ogopogo*

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I'm saying that the system in play was inherently unfair and the system itself screwed every player in the NHL out of they're fair market value.

I think we differ in our opinion of what fair market value is. You seem to think it can only be determined by having two or more parties in a bidding war for one's services. I disagree.

Fair market value is what the team and the player agree to. If it is fair to both sides, the deal is signed. Howe felt it was fair and signed.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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I think we differ in our opinion of what fair market value is. You seem to think it can only be determined by having two or more parties in a bidding war for one's services. I disagree.

Fair market value is what the team and the player agree to. If it is fair to both sides, the deal is signed. Howe felt it was fair and signed.

Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I believe that without direct competition, fair market value is impossible.
 

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