Goodenow's plan

[Mess]

Same can be said for both sides on many counts. They need to can the egos and get to honest work on this deal -- both sides. This isn't either a "the owners are evil" or a "the players are greedy" scenario. Both sides are, at best, too stubborn.

Totally agree with that .. No questions asked ..

Both are to blame for the state of the game ..
Both are responsible for escalating Salaries.
Both are responsible for long lockout.
Both are responsible for the damage done to Revenue Stream by their INACTIONS.
Both have been poor negotiating partners and
Both are too stubborn to do anything else at this point in time ....

 

[codswallop]

The rest of this I will deal with in a more substantive post, later.

I for one would like to hear your counter to his post. I only have a rudimentary knowledge of the law, especially how it applies to this situation. So I won't even begin to try and dissect it
on my own; reading a few case laws and the basic rules of law that apply here would probably confuse me more than help. I know my limitations, one being that my base of knowledge doesn't lie in the law.

I know better than to trust media sources when they write about how the legal aspects of this situation could possibly turn out, if it does indeed come to that. And frankly, the few lawyers around here either don't post much or have quite the slanted view on how the law applies to this. So a refreshing view would be most welcome.

Even though I'm afraid your discussion with Messenger will end in futility. He seems far to entrenched to have his views budged even a tiny bit (certain realities are sometimes hard to face). But it's always worth a try. If nothing else, maybe the rest of us will learn something positive about the law as it applies here. Certainly would be a welcome change from the expression of some rather implausible theories given the NHL's current situation, as well as character assassination if their point goes awry or gets shot down in some way (don't think that change will really happen, but I can always hope).

 

[RangerBoy]

Is the NHLPA playing ostrich?

The resemblance between the National Hockey League Players’ Association and a flock of ostriches is becoming more and more vivid.

When an ostrich is confronted with fear, it traditionally sticks its head in the sand.

The players’ union now appears to be doing likewise since its announcement that it has cancelled its much-heralded all-membership meeting, scheduled for May 24-26 in Toronto.

"In early April, when we set the May 24-26 meeting dates, we thought these dates would work well to allow both North American and European based players to get together," said NHLPA president Trevor Linden of the Vancouver Canucks. "Since our late-February meeting with 156 players in Toronto, we decided there is not sufficient new information to justify another meeting at this time."

What does Linden mean when he says no “new information?â€

Surely, he can’t be serious.

The last spate of NHL-NHLPA meetings last week in New York were filled with data.

What Linden is really saying is that hockey peace will not be achieved this Spring – and likely not in the summer either.

But it has nothing to do with new information, but rather what I’ve been saying all along. That is that the union boss, Bob Goodenow, is incapable of cementing a new collective bargaining agreement.

In one respect the cancellation makes sense from Goodenow’s perspective.

Many reports recently indicated that the NHLPA’s executive director would be facing an increasingly hostile membership at the annual players’ conference that was scheduled at the end of this month.

As John Davidson pointed out here on MSGNetwork.com on May 12th, Goodenow “has to provide these guys with sound exit strategy. If there’s no conclusion soon, I think the players will pose the questions, ‘What is our exit strategy? What are we going to get out of this thing if we keep going?’â€

http://www.msgnetwork.com/content_n...ticle&sports=ice-hockey&team=other&league=nhl

 

[Mess]

Even though I'm afraid your discussion with Messenger will end in futility. He seems far to entrenched to have his views budged even a tiny bit (certain realities are sometimes hard to face). But it's always worth a try. If nothing else, maybe the rest of us will learn something positive about the law as it applies here. Certainly would be a welcome change from the expression of some rather implausible theories given the NHL's current situation, as well as character assassination if their point goes awry or gets shot down in some way (don't think that change will really happen, but I can always hope).

Is there really any hope for a negotiated settlement in your opinion ??.

The latest NHL proposal to the NHLPA last week during meetings was according to Stan Fischler

That addressed the relationship between player salaries and league revenues.

The NHLPA proposal contained an upper cap of $50 million and a floor of $30 million.

My information is that the NHL’s counter-proposal is for a $32 million cap and a $22 million floor.

http://www.msgnetwork.com/content_news.jsp?articleID=v0000msgn20050513T012809750&newsgroup=columnist.article&team=&sports=ice-hockey

Personally I just don't see how the NHL Owners expect a deal to get done when their offers are in this range ..

How many teams last season had payrolls in that range ?? Florida, Pittsburgh, Nashville, ??

How can the players tell Goodenow to accept that ??

 

[djhn579]

Personally I just don't see how the NHL Owners expect a deal to get done when their offers are in this range ..

How many teams last season had payrolls in that range ?? Florida, Pittsburgh, Nashville, ??

How can the players tell Goodenow to accept that ??

How many teams next season are going to have revenues close to what they made last season?

 

[Mess]

How many teams next season are going to have revenues close to what they made last season?

To me it looked like the NHL forgot to bring along a calculator to the accounting meetings ..

Since $22 mil floor divided by 22 players per team makes the math easily done in your head ..

However the million dollar question per player is .. Is this really any better then decertifying and taking your chances from a players point of view?

 

[djhn579]

To me it looked like the NHL forgot to bring along a calculator to the accounting meetings ..

Since $22 mil floor divided by 22 players per team makes the math easily done in your head ..

However the million dollar question per player is .. Is this really any better then decertifying and taking your chances from a players point of view?

Depends. How many players think they will benefit from having guaranteed contracts, minimum salaries and one-way contracts?

Do you think the majority of players will be happy knowing that if they don't contribute consistently that they will be forced to accept a pay cut or be out of work because they don't have the benefits of a CBA?

 

[Mess]

Depends. How many players think they will benefit from having guaranteed contracts, minimum salaries and one-way contracts?

Do you think the majority of players will be happy knowing that if they don't contribute consistently that they will be forced to accept a pay cut or be out of work because they don't have the benefits of a CBA?

The latest NHL offer has only 1, 2 and 3 year max contracts (for proven stars only) ..

How much difference is there really between a 1 year guaranteed and 1 year non-guaranteed contract .. The time your team realizes you are not contributing the season may be well over .. Is a one year deal really solid job security..

Minimum salary is what the players are getting now during the lockout .. At least now they don't have to risk injury to get nothing .. You think they are kicking Goodenow's door in to play for nothing ?? In fact the union is paying them a lockout fee said to be 5-10 k per month .. At 10k X12 months = 120 K per year .. Is new NHL Salary less then that figure ??

 

[Boltsfan2029]

Personally I just don't see how the NHL Owners expect a deal to get done when their offers are in this range

And I don't see how the NHLPA expects to get a deal done with offers in this range:

The NHLPA proposal contained an upper cap of $50 million and a floor of $30 million.

A conundrum (a question or problem having only a conjectural answer; an intricate and difficult problem). Negotiating tactics can be ugly. I'm not surprised by either side's numbers. The league came up $10M from their initial $32.5M offer before, they'll come up again. The Union is going to have to play ball & come down, too.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

However Fischler known for his PA union busting reports is really not helping his side if his numbers are wrong .. If the players see those numbers in the papers .. You think they are in any hurry to end the lockout ??

And, by the same token, Brooks' reports. How come you never mention the other side of the coin?

What I think doesn't matter. What you think doesn't matter. What we think the players think doesn't matter. They have player reps, etc., and I highly doubt they'd rely on anything the media or the fans have to say. If they want to play again at a very nice wage, albeit not quite the windfall they've enjoyed for the last decade, they'll urge their leaders to get a deal done. If they don't, they won't and we'll have to explore other avenues.

I suspect they want to play. I think a deal will be struck, I'm just hoping it's in time for the season to start in October because I might die of hockey withdrawal if it doesn't!

 

[Hasbro]

And, by the same token, Brooks' reports. How come you never mention the other side of the coin?

For us pro managementers, I've noticed alot less faith in Fish than Pro-PAers have in Brooks or Strachan.

As for Goodenow's plan:

Step 1: place thumb up ass

Step 2: Wait


He's done a horrible job planning this, he never has come up with any explination why 42.5 million split 23 ways is unacceptable, never stopped players from making "We're just trying to feed our family" quotes or transparent retractions of players saying they wouldn't mind a cap, hasn't brought any initiative on other issues plauging the game like safety, officiating (until the recent focus on Revenue sharing), never exploited the widespread disgust with Bettman, and just lackidasical negotiating.

 

[nyrmessier011]

Let's try to name the threads according to opinion or fact...I know the first post goes on to explain that's it's his opinion, but let's try to name all new threads according to opinion or if there's a source involved. I have made this mistake in the past also. I just hate going on HF and seeing something that looks like big news and have it be someones opinion and not solid news.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

As for Goodenow's plan:

Step 1: place thumb up ass

Step 2: Wait

May i add step 3?

Twist it when it feels soggy!

 

[CGG]

Depends. How many players think they will benefit from having guaranteed contracts, minimum salaries and one-way contracts?

Do you think the majority of players will be happy knowing that if they don't contribute consistently that they will be forced to accept a pay cut or be out of work because they don't have the benefits of a CBA?

Contracts are always guaranteed, that's why they're called contracts. The old CBA gave the owners the option to buy out contracts at 2/3 value. Without a CBA they wouldn't have that option.

 

[djhn579]

Contracts are always guaranteed, that's why they're called contracts. The old CBA gave the owners the option to buy out contracts at 2/3 value. Without a CBA they wouldn't have that option.

True, without a CBA the owners can have the players sign contracts with a much lower buy out option. It would be up to each player to negotiate this though, along with everything else and they won't be able to compare their contracts to other players contracts if owners require the players to keep the details confidential (I see no reason why any owner would not insist on this since it will help keep salaries down...)

 

[joepeps]

True, without a CBA the owners can have the players sign contracts with a much lower buy out option. It would be up to each player to negotiate this though, along with everything else and they won't be able to compare their contracts to other players contracts if owners require the players to keep the details confidential (I see no reason why any owner would not insist on this since it will help keep salaries down...)

I think every player should be arbitrated after every season... If he does well pay goes up if he does bad pay stays the same or goes down, depending on if he get a higher pay last arbiration.... This way they make the money on how they perform... and they don't get a 10 mil contract for 5 years for playing good 1 year.....

 

[Crazy_Ike]

That's pretty much the same as non-guaranteed contracts.

 

[joepeps]

That's pretty much the same as non-guaranteed contracts.

ya but they should be paid on how they preform..
if they put together 2-3 good season in a row then it shoul dbe guarenteed for 2-3 season at the price other wise they shouldn't get payed for slacking off...

 

[Tiki]

Contracts are always guaranteed, that's why they're called contracts. The old CBA gave the owners the option to buy out contracts at 2/3 value. Without a CBA they wouldn't have that option.

When you sign a contract, the owner can put in what they want if there is no CBA. Perhaps the owners give a severance package if they decide to let you go? It happens in the bussiness world all the time where workers have no CBA to protect them from being fired if they do not live up to expectations.

 

[nyrmessier011]

May i add step 3?

Twist it when it feels soggy!

that is just compulsive

 

[CGG]

When you sign a contract, the owner can put in what they want if there is no CBA. Perhaps the owners give a severance package if they decide to let you go? It happens in the bussiness world all the time where workers have no CBA to protect them from being fired if they do not live up to expectations.

But the player / employee would have to agree to the dismissal terms at the time he signs a contract, not many players would sign off on an out clause, unless they were compensated very well, i.e. 2/3 of unpaid salary. Whenever a coach gets fired these days, he still gets paid until his contract runs out, unless he agrees to some type of buyout or takes another coaching job.

 

[codswallop]

Is there really any hope for a negotiated settlement in your opinion ??.

There always is. If enough of the right type of pressure is applied, definitely. What exactly that is and which side will be the most affected by it, we don't know yet. One thing is for sure, the noose is tightening around both parties (NHL feeling the pinch of decreased sponsor revenues and the PA feeling the heat from the players that simply want to play). Actually, both those hurt the players if they want to keep a pretty high salary but for the purposes of these negotiations, each side can feel the cement hardening around their feet.

The latest NHL proposal to the NHLPA last week during meetings was according to Stan Fischler

Personally I just don't see how the NHL Owners expect a deal to get done when their offers are in this range ..

How many teams last season had payrolls in that range ?? Florida, Pittsburgh, Nashville, ??

How can the players tell Goodenow to accept that ??

For the sake of argument, let's say I believe those numbers (I don't really, the media has shown time and again how they can conveniently leave out relevant and important info or simply get it totally wrong). But those numbers are pretty much bunk, from both sides.

I know they'd both like to have those at the final numbers, but they both know that isn't going to happen unless one side completely and totally cracks. The NHL will go up to get a settlement, the PA will go down to get a settlement. Another important element is what will become of the other fairly heated issues; arbitration, qualifying offers, etc. That will have an effect on how this all plays out in the end. I'm not comfortable simply discussing just the final numbers, as there is much more that has to take place before any agreement comes about. One or both sides could make the other issues directly related to the final cap numbers/linkage percentage, causing even more headaches. Or they could both (truthfully) say we want to get a deal done, and they could hammer this out in a couple weeks.

If you want real answers, then I'm going to disappoint you. I know so little real information and this entire situation is quite unpredictable, the best that any of us can come up with is conjecture about one in what is likely thousands of scenarios that could play out here.

 

[Tiki]

But the player / employee would have to agree to the dismissal terms at the time he signs a contract, not many players would sign off on an out clause, unless they were compensated very well, i.e. 2/3 of unpaid salary. Whenever a coach gets fired these days, he still gets paid until his contract runs out, unless he agrees to some type of buyout or takes another coaching job.

An out clause negotiation woukd go well for the top tier of players, But the the group at large would not do as well. The higher demand for thier seriveces, the better they will do over all in contract negotiations in all facets. The problem with no CBA lies in the bottom 2/3'rds of the league which are going to be easily replaceable parts on the vast majority of teams. These player will have little to no security and poor pay rates compaired to the top end guys. Being a certified association brings them power to boost all of thier benefits up.

 

[djhn579]

An out clause negotiation woukd go well for the top tier of players, But the the group at large would not do as well. The higher demand for thier seriveces, the better they will do over all in contract negotiations in all facets. The problem with no CBA lies in the bottom 2/3'rds of the league which are going to be easily replaceable parts on the vast majority of teams. These player will have little to no security and poor pay rates compaired to the top end guys. Being a certified association brings them power to boost all of thier benefits up.

Agree completely. Another thing that is overlooked on the decertify and all will be great for the players argument is that once the union decertifies, there is no more reserve system, so how many of the bottom 2/3rds players will be replaced by players that were the property of other clubs or that were never eligible for the NHL because they were never drafted/went trough a draft?

 

[Mess]

Agree completely. Another thing that is overlooked on the decertify and all will be great for the players argument is that once the union decertifies, there is no more reserve system, so how many of the bottom 2/3rds players will be replaced by players that were the property of other clubs or that were never eligible for the NHL because they were never drafted/went trough a draft?

What does that say of the state of the NHL if you feel 2/3rds of the players are in danger of losing their NHL jobs by reserve system players from other teams ??

If there are better players trapped in the AHL or Europe because of depth by an NHL team then that is a big problem to suggest the NHL really needs to loosen up on the rights issue before age 31.. The NHL is suppose to be the best league in the world and if AHLers on some teams are better the NHLers on others then that needs to be chaged and quickly for the good of the game ..

Never drafted ??? Those would be Euro players only as NA players are all UFA after age 20 and able to be signed by anyone at anytime without being drafted now .. So that leaves undisovered/undrafted Euro players that are good enough to take away potentially 2/3rds of players current NHL jobs yet they never warranted even a 9th round pick by any NHL team in the past ??