Giveaways stats for McDavid and Draisaitl?

[Soul8]

I would be curious to see the giveaway stats from McDavid and Draisaitl. I feel they are both amazing players, but often times see McDavid giving away the puck more often on plays, where it seems Draisaitl makes more 'safe plays' that are still smart plays...but gives the puck away less than McDavid. I would be curious of the stats suggest the same.

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[Crude]

I would be curious to see the giveaway stats from McDavid and Draisaitl. I feel they are both amazing players, but often times see McDavid giving away the puck more often on plays, where it seems Draisaitl makes more 'safe plays' that are still smart plays...but gives the puck away less than McDavid. I would be curious of the stats suggest the same.

Completely disagree. I think that Drai makes a lot more risky passes (which I am totally fine with), and I think that he gives it away more than McDavid. That said, this is pretty much a non-issue, and brings me back to the days when people on here would freak out because Hemsky seemed to give the puck away a lot.

We are blessed with a couple of the best possession, puck-carrying, puck-protecting forwards in the entire league. Of course they are going to give it away sometimes; our entire game plan runs through 97 and 29.

 

[PaPaDee]

84 giveaways for Drai (lead the team) and 67 for McDavid.

 

[McNuge]

For a true argument you need to factor in where those giveaways occur. Both of them make high risk plays in the offensive zone which sometimes get picked off. Does anyone know where to find this stat?

 

[oobga]

84 giveaways for Drai (lead the team) and 67 for McDavid.

Pretty impressive. McDavid doesn't even crack the top 50 in giveaways, but I believe he leads the NHL in controlled carries into the offensive zone by a country mile. Guy has the puck way more than more anyone else.

Of course, this didn't stop Spector from writing and article about him having a couple giveaways in a game when he knew McDavid was terribly ill.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Giveaway stat is useless for determining player effectiveness. Players who have the puck more, aka your higher skilled players, will give the puck away more because they have it more. Shining example number one is Pavel Datsyuk, arguably the most skilled puck handler of his time often led the league in giveaways.

High danger giveaways, typically blue line turnovers, are the killers. Those are the important giveaways that can kill you. I do agree Draisatl has to reel this in as this is a weak part of his game. But that said it’s not an egregious problem with him.

When Spec wrote about McDavids giveaways yes 97 was sick but was guilty of a lot of high danger giveaways at the time. If your not playing at 100% you do need to simplify and move the puck into safe areas. I just remember both he and Leon were desperate in trying to create offence at the time and it was blowing up in both of their faces costing the team goals.

 

[Soul8]

84 giveaways for Drai (lead the team) and 67 for McDavid.

Thank you for this. I am surprised to see this...could be due to me not having watched most of the oilers games this year. So my perception was off. The games I watched seemed to tell a different story. I appreciate you sharing those stats .ty

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

ITT people here don't know what stats to value. People here love to harp on those who have high giveaway totals and praise those who have high blocked shots totals, when you should be doing the exact opposite. Sure a giveaway is a negative event on the ice and a blocked shot is a positive event on the ice, but you have to look at what led to those events in the first place. A high volume of giveaways is only an issue if you're not driving plays (see: Ryan Strome). The league leaders in giveaways each year are often a who's who of "who are the best offensive chance generators in the NHL". If you constantly have the puck on your stick and are constantly looking to make plays, of course you're going to have lots of turnovers just out of sheer usage volume. Not worried one bit. Now a high volume of blocked shots without significant penalty kill deployment would leave me extremely concerned about a player. It's usually a who's who of "who gets hemmed into their own zone all the time".

TLDR: unless you're a complimentary piece like Strome, high giveaways=good player. unless you kill penalties for ~3 minutes like Vlasic, high blocked shots=terrible player.

 

[nabob]

McDavid carried the puck on his stick way more than any player in the league. He's going to have some giveaways.

It a damned if you damned if you don't situation when it come to fans. If a player is coming in 1 on 3 and his line is tired and getting a change he'll float the puck into the goalie and get an offensive zone faceoff. That's a good play, but fans will complain about the weak shot from the outside. If he's to try and dangle through three players while his team is changing, he likely gives the puck away and the team is caught. Not everyone can pull a McDavid and weave magic. Drai can at times and is great at holding the puck on the boards though.

Where Drai is most guilty of turnovers is in his own zone, especially when clearing the puck. Like the 3rd Vegas goal the other night. That was a Gagner-like turnover, and if he can execute that area of his game a bit better he'd be a much more complete player.

 

[nabob]

ITT people here don't know what stats to value. People here love to harp on those who have high giveaway totals and praise those who have high blocked shots totals, when you should be doing the exact opposite. Sure a giveaway is a negative event on the ice and a blocked shot is a positive event on the ice, but you have to look at what led to those events in the first place. A high volume of giveaways is only an issue if you're not driving plays (see: Ryan Strome). The league leaders in giveaways each year are often a who's who of "who are the best offensive chance generators in the NHL". If you constantly have the puck on your stick and are constantly looking to make plays, of course you're going to have lots of turnovers just out of sheer usage volume. Not worried one bit. Now a high volume of blocked shots without significant penalty kill deployment would leave me extremely concerned about a player. It's usually a who's who of "who gets hemmed into their own zone all the time".

TLDR: unless you're a complimentary piece like Strome, high giveaways=good player. unless you kill penalties for ~3 minutes like Vlasic, high blocked shots=terrible player.

They should separate giveaways by zones on the ice. Would be much more telling of a stat.

What this really shows is that, once again, McDavid is the best player in the world. For him to not even be in the top 50'for giveaways is unbelievable

 

[FlameChampion]

I have no stats to back it up but from watching the games I don’t think McDavid gives the puck away much. He has giveaways because he has the puck so much. I think he’s been better in the second half because he’s been shooting more and not forcing passes. He leads the league in takeaways.

Draisaitl gives the puck away too much in the offensive zone with low percentage passes. Sometimes he looks like he’s trying to be too cute. When he plays with McDavid I feel like he’s forcing the puck to him too much. When he’s not playing with McDavid, he doesn’t have much to work with so he’s forcing the situation.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

They should separate giveaways by zones on the ice. Would be much more telling of a stat.

What this really shows is that, once again, McDavid is the best player in the world. For him to not even be in the top 50'for giveaways is unbelievable

I agree completely. I also want to see neutral zone giveaway stats. With defensive zone giveaways sometimes it's because of a failed attempt to clear the puck, which is why a lot of these "minute munching defensemen" have high turnover counts. Neutral zone giveaways on the other hand are just a total momentum killer especially if it happens when you're just moving the puck around waiting for a line change or people to get on side or something (Lucic, Strome, and Poolparty are the worst for this).

McDavid is an outlier talent, higher usage than probably any other forward in recent memory, yet same number of giveaways as someone like Mantha who is second fiddle on his line to Larkin. Milan Lucic on the other hand, can go **** off. That loser is 11th among forwards in turnovers despite rarely being tasked with carrying the puck, and is the only forward in the top 60 besides Chris Tierney (who is better offensively than Lucic with less opportunities, worse linemates, and 21 less turnovers) that couldn't even hit 0.5ppg. Embarassing. Can't believe we have to deal with this garbage for 5 more years.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I have no stats to back it up but from watching the games I don’t think McDavid gives the puck away much. He has giveaways because he has the puck so much. I think he’s been better in the second half because he’s been shooting more and not forcing passes. He leads the league in takeaways.

Draisaitl gives the puck away too much in the offensive zone with low percentage passes. Sometimes he looks like he’s trying to be too cute. When he plays with McDavid I feel like he’s forcing the puck to him too much. When he’s not playing with McDavid, he doesn’t have much to work with so he’s forcing the situation.

GVA stats don't really tell you much because its a cumulative stat. A better stat would be risk/reward stat that would be captured by such things as Completion rate on scoring chances for and against. I think that is a better metric in that it more accurately describes the impact of a player.

Offensive producers ALWAYS have high GVA stats because its what they do, they make plays. Some of those plays work, some don't, but the key being they make volumes of those plays thus the GVA.


Another factor of note for Drai is he feels the pressure of needing to produce as much as possible. I find that he's forcing it more as season progresses to try to get something out of nothing. That often times great passing targets are not there. If better puck support was there Drai makes the astute play. When he has whole games where his linemates are subpar he forces more.

Drai needs to fine tune his risk/reward. But he also has to have reward be tangible in his EV minutes. Drai needs at least one winger to be able to work off of. How good would either Sedin be if they didn't have each other to pass it to?

 

[Drivesaitl]

One other thing. Count the number of times in a game Drai tries to buy time for his linemates to get open by controlling the puck, slowing down the play beating a defender, and retaining possession. You will count to a dozen easily almost every game. He DOES this. The thing is often times even after controlling the puck for long enough periods of time there isn't being adequate puck support to make an astute play. Drai is an elite passer. If you get open he will find you. Drai works so well with Slepychev because Slep understands puck possession and making himself available for an outlet pass target. The two work intuitively together. For some foggy reason DRai saw Slepy for only 56mins all season. I have no idea why. Give him Slepychev.

So when Drai is in the offensive zone and has already beaten off defenders for 10 secs and nothing is open what is he supposed to do? Eventually he does get squeezed off it but now without a lot of battle and usually by outmanned situations. Drai is beating dfenders in the ozone for fun this year. Last night he made a play to Khaira after going around the net with defenders hanging in his wake. He's a strong possession player. In the previous game Drais was said to have played "horrible, terrible" by some and yet he led the whole team in shots, scoring chances, and Corsi in the game.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

ITT people here don't know what stats to value. People here love to harp on those who have high giveaway totals and praise those who have high blocked shots totals, when you should be doing the exact opposite. Sure a giveaway is a negative event on the ice and a blocked shot is a positive event on the ice, but you have to look at what led to those events in the first place. A high volume of giveaways is only an issue if you're not driving plays (see: Ryan Strome). The league leaders in giveaways each year are often a who's who of "who are the best offensive chance generators in the NHL". If you constantly have the puck on your stick and are constantly looking to make plays, of course you're going to have lots of turnovers just out of sheer usage volume. Not worried one bit. Now a high volume of blocked shots without significant penalty kill deployment would leave me extremely concerned about a player. It's usually a who's who of "who gets hemmed into their own zone all the time".

TLDR: unless you're a complimentary piece like Strome, high giveaways=good player. unless you kill penalties for ~3 minutes like Vlasic, high blocked shots=terrible player.

Generalized detail stats like this are often misused.
That generalization shows why so many stats are misused. Giveaways on their own is a useless stat.

High danger giveaways and unforced turnovers are the only giveaways that matter.

As for blocked shots certain positions will have a much higher number of blocked shots and certain players have a greater predisposition to blocking shots than others andin particular when the blocked shots occur and under what circumstances.

 

[nabob]

Generalized detail stats like this are often misused.
That generalization shows why so many stats are misused. Giveaways on their own is a useless stat.

High danger giveaways and unforced turnovers are the only giveaways that matter.

As for blocked shots certain positions will have a much higher number of blocked shots and certain players have a greater predisposition to blocking shots than others andin particular when the blocked shots occur and under what circumstances.

A good defenseman will eliminate the shot opportunity and eliminate the chance against completely.
Shot blockers usually allow too many chances against and even if they block the shot it ends up with the other team keeping possession, except now the shot blocking Dman is usually out of position.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Generalized detail stats like this are often misused.
That generalization shows why so many stats are misused. Giveaways on their own is a useless stat.

High danger giveaways and unforced turnovers are the only giveaways that matter.

As for blocked shots certain positions will have a much higher number of blocked shots and certain players have a greater predisposition to blocking shots than others andin particular when the blocked shots occur and under what circumstances.

The thing is how do you qualify what constitutes as a high danger/unforced turnover? Someone like Jumbo Joe makes a lot of those "unforced giveaways" because he was trying to go for a play normal players couldn't even think of to make something happen out of nothing. If it works, magic. If it doesn't it turns up on the wrong side of the stat sheet.

Oh I admit it's a generalization, of course there's exceptions. And that's the thing, they're exceptions and you have to know what you're looking for be able to pick out the needles in the haystacks. For instance Milan Lucic is the worst forward in the top 60 in giveaways by a country mile, and you can tell because he isn't a primary puck carrier or high end playmaker. Players like Crosby/Tavares/Hall/Marchand/Gaudreau etc are constantly among league leaders in giveaways and you'd have to be high to think they're bad players. On the flipside Mark Giordano is constantly among the league leaders in blocked shots because he plays a stupid amount of short handed minutes (like 3 minutes+ per game) in which you basically have to concede possession and deal with opposing shots by any means possible. Players like Russell/Girardi/Ceci/Orpik/Stone etc are complete tire fires in their own end and bleed chances against like crazy.

Obviously you don't actively look for forwards with high giveaway totals or actively avoid defensemen with high blocked shots totals without evaluating the "WHY" for those stats. In this case, it doesn't take a genius to know Crosby/Tavares/Hall/Marchand/Gaudreau are excellent players and Lucic is one of the worst players in the NHL. Similarly, it doesn't take a savant to figure out Giordano is an fantastic defender and Russell/Girardi/Ceci/Orpik/Stone suck the big skin banana.

 

[nightfighter]

Drai has high giveaway stats because his passes to Lucic either miss completely or bounce off the guys stick because he doesn't know how to skate fast or take a pass anymore.

 

[lakai17]

Just how Drai tries to enter the offensive zone not always working for him like it did last season. He needs to rejuvenate that a little.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

A good defenseman will eliminate the shot opportunity and eliminate the chance against completely.
Shot blockers usually allow too many chances against and even if they block the shot it ends up with the other team keeping possession, except now the shot blocking Dman is usually out of position.

In a perfect world yes but hockey is a dynamic game. For those that consume hockey via spreadsheets this is often the interpretation of such a generalized stat, like a perfect game is a no hitter, as hits also put players out of position and does not force possession change.

Like any general stat, situational context should be applied.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

In a perfect world yes but hockey is a dynamic game. For those that consume hockey via spreadsheets this is often the interpretation of such a generalized stat, like a perfect game is a no hitter, as hits also put players out of position and does not force possession change.

Like any general stat, situational context should be applied.

But we have the context though... Unless you're one of those people who think Russell is good defensively?

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

The thing is how do you qualify what constitutes as a high danger/unforced turnover? Someone like Jumbo Joe makes a lot of those "unforced giveaways" because he was trying to go for a play normal players couldn't even think of to make something happen out of nothing. If it works, magic. If it doesn't it turns up on the wrong side of the stat sheet.

Oh I admit it's a generalization, of course there's exceptions. And that's the thing, they're exceptions and you have to know what you're looking for be able to pick out the needles in the haystacks. For instance Milan Lucic is the worst forward in the top 60 in giveaways by a country mile, and you can tell because he isn't a primary puck carrier or high end playmaker. Players like Crosby/Tavares/Hall/Marchand/Gaudreau etc are constantly among league leaders in giveaways and you'd have to be high to think they're bad players. On the flipside Mark Giordano is constantly among the league leaders in blocked shots because he plays a stupid amount of short handed minutes (like 3 minutes+ per game) in which you basically have to concede possession and deal with opposing shots by any means possible. Players like Russell/Girardi/Ceci/Orpik/Stone etc are complete tire fires in their own end and bleed chances against like crazy.

Obviously you don't actively look for forwards with high giveaway totals or actively avoid defensemen with high blocked shots totals without evaluating the "WHY" for those stats. In this case, it doesn't take a genius to know Crosby/Tavares/Hall/Marchand/Gaudreau are excellent players and Lucic is one of the worst players in the NHL. Similarly, it doesn't take a savant to figure out Giordano is an fantastic defender and Russell/Girardi/Ceci/Orpik/Stone suck the big skin banana.

As I said, blue line turnovers are considered a high danger turnover as your team is heading in one direction in an area that will cause an odd man situation towards your defensive zone and usually an immediate scoring chance for the opposition. An unforced giveaway is where a pass, usually a blind pass, is given to an opponent without a challenge for the puck. It is pretty simple and is subjective, and will be used by coaching staffs as we did.

Bottom line is when I coached, it was a useful stat that players understood and could directly control. Elite level players down to slugs should not be turning the puck over at the blue lines creating high danger chances the other way, again blue line turnovers which create immediate scoring chances for the opponent, and unforced turnovers no matter the skill level are exactly the same. With elite players, they usually make few high danger turnovers and unforced giveaways.

Lucic this year has been a disaster at unforced giveaways and I would not be surprised if he were the worst on the team. Blue line turnovers Draisatl has some issues with but that can be fixed, and as said, McDavid has a high percentage of controlled zone entries, he rarely gets caught turning it over with a scoring chance coming the other way despite him having clear possession of the puck for huge amounts of time.

 

[nabob]

In a perfect world yes but hockey is a dynamic game. For those that consume hockey via spreadsheets this is often the interpretation of such a generalized stat, like a perfect game is a no hitter, as hits also put players out of position and does not force possession change.

Like any general stat, situational context should be applied.

Oh for sure. I'm not going full Eakins here.

 

[Spawn]

other problem with giveaway and takeaway stats is I highly doubt their accuracy. What is a turnover in one building isn’t the same in another. It’s the same thing with hits. I haven’t checked this year, but when you look at home and away splits for some of these stats there is something wonky going on at times with who is deciding what is or isn’t a giveaway/takeaway/hit.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

other problem with giveaway and takeaway stats is I highly doubt their accuracy. What is a turnover in one building isn’t the same in another. It’s the same thing with hits. I haven’t checked this year, but when you look at home and away splits for some of these stats there is something wonky going on at times with who is deciding what is or isn’t a giveaway/takeaway/hit.

True and same can be said for shots. I’ve seen Edmonton add 5 shots at intermission at the games and said to my buddy we were winning the shots for against battle in the intermission.