Gary Bettman talks an Olympics dis, expansion rumors and whether we're going to see another lockout

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by Llama19, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. zeke

    zeke #freetimmy

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    If you are comfortable with the NHL turning into a minor league comparable to the CFL, then sure, no cap needed.

    But obviously, the owners have no interest in that.

    If you would prefer to watch minor league hockey there are plenty of other options for you.
     
  2. Melrose Munch

    Melrose Munch Registered User

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    Of course the CFL shot. I don't even watch but that is such a Toronto thing to say. The owners have to remain united but I don't believe for a second all of them support a cap, they support cost control and if there was another way to do that they would be for it. And where's the big tv contract. That was the whole point of parity, but still hardly anyone in the US is watching.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  3. sandysan

    sandysan Registered User

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    i dont think you understand how collective bargaining works. The league and the PA are partners. If you were partners with a guy who decided to strike out on his own and not share any of the take, how would you feel ? the owners are not suckers.

    Yes the payday from the all star game might not be much, but it aint zero and it sure as hell isnt negative ( like olympic participation would have to be)
     
  4. tony d

    tony d Pepsi, not Pepe Sponsor

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    The salary cap was a boon for the NHL. Without it Mcdavid doesn't sign long term with Edmonton. As to a lockout if it happens that'd be 4 in 28 years for Bettman. Not a good record considering there was only 1 before Bettman became commishioner.
     
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  5. JETZZZ

    JETZZZ Registered User

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    My point is the payday from their own all star game could be more. Of course the owners are not suckers. In fact, these guys will do everything in their power to sucker anyone they do business with to get the biggest piece of the pie possible and I think that the PA has to start playing the same way as well heading into the next CBA. The relationship between the NHL and NHLPA is not one built on trust.

    I disagree that the NHL loses money in February for taking an Olympic break every 4 years as well. Its a gate driven league that still plays an 82 game regular season with or without an Olympic break. The IIHF has said that they will cover the insurance and travel expenses if they have to. It sure does piss off the players, the fans, hell, if i was NBC, Id think twice about the next TV deal with the NHL.
     
  6. Albatros

    Albatros Registered User

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    The owners have no alternative partners, so their feelings quite frankly do not matter.
     
  7. Dirty Old Man

    Dirty Old Man And yet, we remain

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    Well, except for the 20-40 million people living in the cities that wouldn't have (had) teams.
     
  8. KingsFan7824

    KingsFan7824 Registered User

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    And a lot less power for players. Quebec, Winnipeg, Hartford, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Minnesota, these places couldn't compete when money exploded and players had more choice. Montreal even had 3 consecutive seasons out of the playoffs in the late 90's, and the only other time that happened in franchise history was in the early 1920's.

    Survived without a cap, but there was context to it.

    There was no lockout before Bettman. It was a strike by the PA, which was part of the reason Bettman got the job. You can't have players going on strike before the playoffs. That takes away a lot of leverage for the owners.

    The problem for the NHL is that they didn't have these labor battles earlier. That's because the league and PA management were a bit too close up until the 1990's, but they didn't figure out any of it prior to the 90's. Decades worth of issues were bottled up, and fell in Bettman's lap.

    The PA officially struck first in this fight. Once they got rid of Eagleson, it was game on. In came Goodenow, they flexed some of their muscle, and then the league pushed back.

    These labor fights were coming one way or another. Bettman or no Bettman. They had to.
     
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  9. cbcwpg

    cbcwpg Registered User

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    One thing the NHL Salary Cap has done, is add a market for the walking wounded.

    How the NHL salary cap created a secondary market of injured players and costly contracts

    IMO just can't see the NHL ever agreeing to eliminate the salary cap, so if the NHLPA was ever to bring that issue up, we would have an indefinite lockout. I do see escrow as being a potential issue in the next CBA talks.

    Just another on the cap... didn't realize the NHL handed out fines to do with cap violations.

    Breaking: NHL fines 10 teams for salary cap violations.
     
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  10. Llama19

    Llama19 Registered User

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    Lowest cap team (Coyotes) gets fined for almost $2.5 million in bonuses?

    Barroway is already heavily leveraged...
     
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  11. mouser

    mouser Business of Hockey

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    Lolz, those are Performance Bonus Overages, not fines.
     
  12. HollaHaula

    HollaHaula Cynical Wild fan

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    You stay in place on a treadmill so the league was actually going to be fine? ;)
     
  13. Melrose Munch

    Melrose Munch Registered User

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    Of course. But let's be honest. A place like your team, my team, LA, Chicago. We always get free agents no mater what. Cap or no cap, other then vancouver and minnesota, those teams are not hotspots for elite players unless they are drafted. We have seen the NHLPA surveys. No amount of cap restrictions or "parity" was ever going to fix this. The problem is these cities, for reasons including taxes, weather and media pressure, are undesirable. And while I previously said ill advised business decisions down south, the players love playing down there. It is what it is.
    Would you honestly care if Buffalo or Edmonton didn't have a team anymore? The north american sports fan is so fickle. However, some people in places where they don't have sports teams or sports isn't that popular despite the team (Portland) are just fine.
     
  14. sandysan

    sandysan Registered User

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    you disagree that the league, who lets their players under contract enrich a third party who assumes none of the risk and who is now asking the league to cover insurance and travel in order to enrich themselves while the league is assuming ALL of the risk, isnt the NHL losing money ?

    I'm sure the flipside to the " pa only" all star game where they get to keep all of the money is just the flip side of the owners deciding to unilaterally cut all of the players contracts in half and pocket the difference. A perfectly viable option.

    The IIHF said they would cover the insurance BY STEALING MONEY from national federations. The NHL, rightfully said that they didnt want their participation to be at the expense of grassroots efforts in all countries to hurt the development of the sport. good for them. The NHL isnt for4ced to take what aqmounts to blood money so that thei ioc fatcats can have 1000 dollar per diems to kepp themselves well heeled in mustache wax.

    If NBC thought that they could bring in the peepers by showcasing the worlds best talent in perpetuity without ever paying a cent, then they are the suckers. Their TV contract ( which incidentalliy ignores the very same growing markets the IOC appologists say " grows the game") is for the regular season and the playoffs and its for 10 years. They want to back out, good luck. they want to play hardball with the league at its expiration ? the league will do what they did with the WCoH, go with another broadcaster because the NHL and NBC are at best, temporary partners.

    And the pa and the owners relationship is built on trust. The pa trusts the fact that no matter how good or bad things are going, the owners will essentially ask the players to take another haircut to save them from the untenable and unsustainable economic situation that they owners willingly set up and participated in right up to the point it became untenable.

    If you thought that there wouldnt be another work stoppage immediately after this CBA expired, perhaps you could similar like minded folk at NBC.
     
  15. sandysan

    sandysan Registered User

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    so the players bolt and start their new league ( while still under contract) and play where exactly ? The owners either own the arenas or they have exclusive rights to them.
    That ship has sailed, and given the choice of scab players from the A/khl/ playing in fammilar jerseys in fammiliar arenas vs the talent in the NHL playing for invented teams in non traditional markets without the infrastructure ( perhaps they could play outside if its far enough north!) which one you think comes out ahead ?

    if the current montreal canadiens roster became the lac st jean mooseballs and played in a converted curling arena, I'm not watching. You ?
     
  16. KingsFan7824

    KingsFan7824 Registered User

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    Not sure about Chicago in the Dollar Bill years, but the Kings were hardly a destination between the first and second lockouts. A couple guys here and there, but we know where everybody went. Rangers, Leafs, Philly, Dallas, eventually Detroit got into the free agent game. Also about being able to hold onto players before they hit their UFA years.

    We'll never know, but had they got the cap the first time, maybe Quebec, and Winnipeg, and Hartford, don't lose their teams. Maybe they still do, because of arena issues or whatever, but who knows.

    If I had my choice, I'd probably go with a soft cap/luxury tax. It's a league, not just individual franchises, so there has to be some sort of infrastructure to keep the opponent afloat. No league should not care if teams fold. What business doesn't try to grow? Who wants to stay small? It's not Amazon vs. Wal-Mart though. The Leafs aren't trying to buy out the Panthers, take whatever players they want from the roster, and put Leafs games on TV in Florida. Big market teams, owners that don't care how much they need to spend, they should probably have more of an option to do so. If it's not a league, and it's just individual teams that agree to some set of rules to play games, then get rid of the draft, and have every 18 year old as a total free agent. Have 5 teams in Toronto if you want. Have competing leagues if you want. I get why they went with a hard cap though.
     
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  17. MNNumbers

    MNNumbers Registered User

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    I'm pretty sure there will be a stoppage. After all, the union has these issues:
    1- Escrow
    2- Olympics
    3- As always, definitions of HRR

    Owners have one issue:
    It's still not possible to keep the lower revenue clubs from drowning in red ink, because the cap floor forces them to spend money that their local fans won't pay them for watching the games either on TV or in person.
    The only way to solve that for ownership is to cut even more from the HRR %age that the players get.

    Escrow is really just a math problem, so the PA have nothing to complain about, but they will. And, the solution to that is to move the needle on the cap, something like this:
    Rather than the midpoint= 50% of league wide HRR divided by 31 teams, the league should calculate a running 5-year average how much over the midpoint the league spent. Say that's about 10%, as an example. Then, the cap is calculated like this:
    1- Determine the 50% number that they have been using.
    2- From that number, subtract 3/4 of the running 5-year average.
    3- That's the new midpoint.
    Of course, the result would be that the cap would decrease in the very next year, so an adjustment phase would have to go in: Something like: The cap stays level until HRR reaches the point where we can implement the above system.

    Olympics is huge.
    And, the low revenue clubs is the biggest most intractable problem facing the league. To lower the players' %age would make the MTL, TOR, NYR even richer. The only other solution is local revenue sharing to a greater extent, and I don't expect the big market owners to think much of that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
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  18. Albatros

    Albatros Registered User

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    There are other leagues like under previous lockouts. That's not optimal, but it's better than what the owners have.

    There's no viable way to replace the players, even if they would manage to gather new rosters from bush leagues no one would pay to watch that. So the owners will have to pay a fair share in the end, regardless of their feelings (which ultimately is nothing but greed).
     
  19. Dirty Old Man

    Dirty Old Man And yet, we remain

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    While I'm sure some of you would be perfectly happy if the league, after the next work stoppage, decides "screw it. we're cutting the number of teams in half", you'll also be much further on your way to following sports like boxing, horse racing, tennis, IndyCar into the basket of "formerly mainstream sports which are now niche".

    Which, again, some of you in the older NHL cities are fine with.

    Fortunately you're not the ones making those decisions.
     
  20. Melrose Munch

    Melrose Munch Registered User

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    See, I would be fine with a soft cap and better revenue sharing. Collect your cheque and thats that. The teams NBC broadcasts tells the story of who casual fans want to see. The is no cap solution to the FA problem, and I think after almost 14 years of the hard cap, it would be recognized. I think Hartford, Winnipeg and Quebec were gone anyway. The NHL demands new arenas, and the smaller areas just could not (and still can't) keep up.
    See I asked about Edmonton and Buffalo on purpose. You dont need a team to enjoy the sport. One could argue the NHL is niche anyway, given the TV ratings, which was the whole point of expansion. And IndyCar is dead because of mismanagement and Tony George
     
  21. Dirty Old Man

    Dirty Old Man And yet, we remain

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    Nah, *you* don't need a team to enjoy the sport. Most people do. I was going to bring up growing up in an area without a team for 800 miles (FL). I watched the NHL a little because it was novel (ESPN was brand new) but did not meet anyone who cared one iota about hockey until my 3rd year of college - two guys from Rhode Island who came into my room and watched what turned out to be the 4OT playoff game between the Islanders and Capitals, on a 12" black and white TV. So after that, I got it, but still didn't really care until a team was dropped into my lap in Arizona.

    Even the sport I *did* follow during winter in those days, the NBA... almost no one watched until April, then *everyone* was either a Laker or a Celtic fan, except the young bucks who decided to root for the Bulls, and the occasional nostalgiac who rooted for the Sixers and Dr. J...but no one watched without a rooting interest.

    I do understand the sentiment. I also follow Formula One. Kinda like some teams and drivers more than others, but more than that I just like the spectacle of it. I also understand that I'm one of a very small number, and I'm okay with that. I suspect the number of people who share your similar sentiment about hockey isn't large (although all of them may post here). And, just like we're seeing with NASCAR, if NHL teams(favorite drivers) are contracted (retire), fans will leave.
     
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  22. Melrose Munch

    Melrose Munch Registered User

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    I'll agree about NASCAR and Indy, clearly they were not prepared for Gordon's retirement. What do we say to people in Nebraska or Iowa. Keep in mind, I supported expansion as long as the TV deal came. It's not here. I don't support contraction however, I support no more cap or a soft cap. Despite its issues, Arizona gets FAs because of weather and Taxes. Most people don't live in one of the 30 largest cities in the country. So I'll have to disagree with you about having a team. IMO, that isn't about southern or northern markets anyway...speaks to the weakness of the North American fan as a whole.
     
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  23. Dirty Old Man

    Dirty Old Man And yet, we remain

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    I suspect next year will be even worse, after Dale Jr leaves altogether. I have a friend who was a marketing executive for NASCAR/ISC when the downward trend started, and even then he said things like "what would really help us, is if Jr wins Daytona again".

    Bringing up Nebraska does make me think of something else that comes up here from time to time - how Canadians and Europeans don't get U.S. fans of college (read "amateur") sports. That's what people in Nebraska and Iowa (and Alabama, and South Carolina, etc etc) inclined to follow sports do care about. That and maybe an NFL team because that *is* so popular.
     
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  24. Melrose Munch

    Melrose Munch Registered User

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    Gordon,Dale,Dale Jr, Rusty Wallace were all household names at some point. Jimmie just does not move the needle and the busch brothers, kasey kahne...no one cares. I think you have a point of about college that I may have missed. They replace pro sports for sure.
     
  25. Nalens Oga

    Nalens Oga Registered User

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    I'm pretty sure the Olympics is an owner/league issue that they're going to pin on players in the narrative when it's really a league thing.

    And as for certain teams drowning in red ink....some teams in a 31 team league are always going to be in red. The problem is that it's almost always the same ones. That's also a league issue, they keep up clubs that were in the red and then unlike what any normal business would do (close up shop there or move), they try to force a bigger issue out of it. It would be like Walmart losing money by keeping a bunch of stores open in rural or smalltown American but instead of closing those unprofitable stores, they started pouring money into them from the stores earning money and expecting better results despite the demographic situation being the same.
     

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