GDT: Game 67: Colorado Avalanche @ Columbus Blue Jackets - Black and Blue - 5PM

[cgf]

Which part you don't believe? That he can be super good? Super bad? Or that he's super inconsistent?

The first 3 sentences of that 4 sentence post are absolute nonsense, so I’d say it’s that part that I refuse to accept that you are dumb enough to genuinely believe.

 

[Balthazar]

The first 3 sentences of that 4 sentence post are absolute nonsense, so I’d say it’s that part that I refuse to accept that you are dumb enough to genuinely believe.

Quit playing the superiority card and tell me where you think I'm wrong. I'm still waiting.

 

[dahrougem2]

Soderberg looks like he genuinely dislikes scoring goals

 

[McMetal]

At no point this season has Z played like an ''AHL" defenseman. He's been dominant at times, and ineffective at others, but he's never looked like he doesn't belong in the NHL. Inconsistent, sure, but can the hyperbole.

 

[cgf]

Quit playing the superiority card and tell me where you think I'm wrong. I'm still waiting.

I already did, it’s this asinine nonsense right here:

Zadorov is as inconsistent as he ever was. There's no progression on that front. None.

 

[Balthazar]

I already did, it’s this asinine nonsense right here:

So you think he's more consistent than he was in the past? Fair enough. Personally I think he's better than he was, but as inconsistent.

 

[Foppa2118]

Barrie is being played as a #1 (at ES) and I think we can all agree he isn't that. He will always have some struggles in that role. IMO if you paired him with a steady #2 you could have a passable top pairing with Barrie... but the Avs don't have that. Z is far to sporadic and Nemeth isn't even close to that capability. Yet, Barrie is doing what he can and playing his game well enough to keep things going. He's never going to be a great defensive player, so he has to counteract that with offense... and he is doing that. Barrie will always be a high event player, and that only gets exacerbated when playing top minutes.

Barrie's offense will always negate his defensive breakdowns, and vice versa. However, he can not have games where he is that bad defensively, and has that many defensive breakdowns. It simply outweighs his offensive contribution and hurts the team way too much.

He's being exposed too much playing so many minutes in EJ's absence, but he's also making careless mistakes that he can play that much without making.

I'm interested to see how he responds next game. He follows up bad games with good performances offensively sometimes.

 

[dahrougem2]

Barrie's offense will always negate his defensive breakdowns, and vice versa. However, he can not have games where he is that bad defensively, and has that many defensive breakdowns. It simply outweighs his offensive contribution and hurts the team way too much.

He's being exposed too much playing so many minutes in EJ's absence, but he's also making careless mistakes that he can play that much without doing.

He was on for goals 1, 4, and 5 against last night. I think we all agree their 1st goal was 100% his fault, but goals 4 and 5 really aren't on him. Goal 4 especially, that's just as weak a goal allowed by Varlamov as the Forsberg OT winner. Those shots can't go in.

The OT goal isn't on him, either. He's got his man, and he's yelling/pointing for Rantanen to take his man as well, which ends up being too late and they end up with a 3-on-1 against Barrie.

Not his best game, though.

 

[henchman21]

Agreed...up until that final sentence. This is big Nik’s first season as a top pairing guy, it’s not exactly fair to expect him to not suffer some instability the first time EJ goes down and he has to stabilize that pairing defensively.

He needs to be a lot better, as his four worst games of the season have come in the last 6 games; but worrying about him ever being able to do it because he of that is silly.

I think you're giving him too much leeway. There has never been consistency in his game and while he will grow out of some of it... I think it is fair to have doubts if he will grow out of them enough to come anywhere near his talent level. We have been talking about these issues with him since he got here and while there has been improvement, it isn't close to where it needs to be. Hell, I remember 30 games ago people were ready to anoint him and proclaim all of his issues were past him... it is quite clear they are not.

He has been bad for a while now... it isn't the last 6 games, we are going on 15+ at this point.

 

[Foppa2118]

He was on for goals 1, 4, and 5 against last night. I think we all agree their 1st goal was 100% his fault, but goals 4 and 5 really aren't on him. Goal 4 especially, that's just as weak a goal allowed by Varlamov as the Forsberg OT winner. Those shots can't go in.

The OT goal isn't on him, either. He's got his man, and he's yelling/pointing for Rantanen to take his man as well, which ends up being too late and they end up with a 3-on-1 against Barrie.

Not his best game, though.

Have to disagree with that. Not only the goals, but other big defensive breakdowns I illustrated earlier. He's certainly not the only one though, everyone was bad in that game.

Goals four and five, his entire job in those positions is to not let the pass get through. On the 4th goal, he can't let a pass go from behind the net almost on the other side of the goal, to the doorstep for a tap in like that. If it gets by him between his body and the net, it's a mistake.

On the OT goal, he let a slow dribbling pass go right through his legs on a two on one. He is perfectly capable of stopping that pass. He just didn't play the 2 on 1 properly. He's got to go down to one knee and let Varly play the shot. Or at the very least get his legs closer together so there isn't a huge passing lane between them. Even still, that pass was so slow he should have been able to stop it.

The 4th goal I think Varly was caught looking the wrong way, and left too many holes open, and potentially could have stopped it, but it's also a very dangerous scoring chance that could have been prevented. The 5th goal was even more dangerous, and he didn't have much a chance on. That was not a bad goal at all. He's moving all over the place towards his right to respect PLD's shot, before the pass gets through on his left and Jones one times it upstairs.

Aside from that, Barrie also killed those first two power plays all by himself with really bad zone entires and passes. I think they might have had zero shots on those two PP's, I'm not sure. That helped sap the momentum from the Avs, and in favor of the Jackets who started dominating.

He also coughed up the puck in his own corner in the final minute of the second period when it was 4-2. That directly lead to a dangerous scoring chance that easily could have prevented them from forcing OT and gaining a point.

These are just the plays that stand out in my mind. There were other little defensive breakdowns that he has every game, that he can usually negate with good offensive performances.

He just had a really bad game unfortunately. He has a couple games like that a year, but fortunately he usually responds well. I don't recall many times where he played two terrible games in a row. He usually comes out with a very good offensive performance in the following game, and gets the team up on the scoreboard, where they can control the game, and don't face as much pressure in the D zone. Hopefully that plays out against Arizona.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Goals 1 and 4 were easily on Barrie.


First one require no explanation. 2nd one he put himself in the worst position you can, no mans land. He wasn't taking either the guy behind the net or Vanek in the slot and just stood in between the two of them, barely even moving at that. Made for a very easy pass and while yes it was one Varly probably needs to have, the opportunity presented itself because of a poor read by Barrie.


The OT goal, I dont blame him at all for. The two forwards did an absolutely horrific job at man to man defensive coverage and left Barrie basically on an island by himself. He did what he could but when it was essentially a 3 on 1 in tight, there's not much he really could have done. Once again that was one I think Varly probably could have had as well. Not blaming him because it was a 3 on 1 but that pass to Jones was telegraphed before it happen, wasn't a very hard pass at all, and Varly still was late getting across enough for Jones to find the opening and put it past him.


It was another classic example of Varly being unable to build on a strong Chicago game where he didn't allow any bad goals and was sharp all night. He wasn't bad so to say against Columbus, but he let in 1 soft goal, and another couple that he definitely had the chance to stop but didnt.

 

[cgf]

I think you're giving him too much leeway. There has never been consistency in his game and while he will grow out of some of it... I think it is fair to have doubts if he will grow out of them enough to come anywhere near his talent level. We have been talking about these issues with him since he got here and while there has been improvement, it isn't close to where it needs to be. Hell, I remember 30 games ago people were ready to anoint him and proclaim all of his issues were past him... it is quite clear they are not.

He has been bad for a while now... it isn't the last 6 games, we are going on 15+ at this point.

He’s shown consistency over ~20 game stretches before having another really sloppy game. And he’s done so this season and last. This season he’s actually had two 15+ game stretches where he was consistently at least good, even if there were still absent-minded moments. He may not dominate game in n game out, but for now I just want him to become consistently good enough to eat top pairing minutes. Which, before EJ went down, he had done for multiple extended stretches. If those stretches don’t continue to become longer/more-frequent then I’ll worry. But so far things aren’t trending in that direction despite his ongoing down turn.

Once he’s reliably a top pairing guy for us, then I’ll start griping that he isn’t dominating night in & night out ;-)

The kid is still very young and inexperienced, and needed more polish than the average bear to begin with; nevermind that these giants typically need longer than most blueliners. So though there’s still plenty of work to be done, there’s also been a lot of progress, and he’s generally a positive influence on the ice more nights than not.

 

[henchman21]

He’s shown consistency over ~20 game stretches before having another really sloppy game. And he’s done so this season and last. This season he’s actually had two 15+ game stretches where he was consistently at least good, even if there were still absent-minded moments. He may not dominate game in n game out, but for now I just want him to become consistently good enough to eat top pairing minutes. Which, before EJ went down, he had done for multiple extended stretches. If those stretches don’t continue to become longer/more-frequent then I’ll worry. But so far things aren’t trending in that direction despite his ongoing down turn.

Once he’s reliably a top pairing guy for us, then I’ll start griping that he isn’t dominating night in & night out ;-)

The kid is still very young and inexperienced, and needed more polish than the average bear to begin with; nevermind that these giants typically need longer than most blueliners. So though there’s still plenty of work to be done, there’s also been a lot of progress, and he’s generally a positive influence on the ice more nights than not.

I don't recall many 20 game stretches... he mostly seems to have 10 game spurts in my eyes. A big part of my issue with it, is you don't know if he is going to play at a top pairing level or play at a bottom pairing level. I'd much rather the highs be lower and him play at a middle pairing level compared to what we are getting now. It makes it very hard to count on him in any specific role, and the Avs are needing to start counting on him in larger roles... he needs to prove capable of handling it.

He has over 200 NHL games and over 50 AHL games, the inexperienced excuse should be wearing off. He's in the midst of his 4th professional season (3rd in the NHL)...

 

[cgf]

The inexperience excuse will wear off when he stops improving. Until then he’s still a work in a progress to me.

How many games did EJ need before becoming a consistent force, how many games did Chara need, and what about Pronger, or Buff? These behemoths have their own timelines sometimes and as long as he’s still moving down that timeline I’m not worried. Surprise season or no, this is still a developmental year and next season may be to...though we really should hit the postseason next year, if the development is to continue moving forward.

 

[Balthazar]

I don't recall many 20 game stretches... he mostly seems to have 10 game spurts in my eyes.

Even 10 consecutive games is stretching it quite a bit. There's no way he played 10 consecutive games this season (or ever) looking like a 1st pairing defenseman. He did have a few good games in a row with EJ before the injury but not 10.

Obviously "looking like a 1st pairing D" is subjective, some have higher standards than others.

 

[henchman21]

The inexperience excuse will wear off when he stops improving. Until then he’s still a work in a progress to me.

How many games did EJ need before becoming a consistent force, how many games did Chara need, and what about Pronger, or Buff? These behemoths have their own timelines sometimes and as long as he’s still moving down that timeline I’m not worried. Surprise season or no, this is still a developmental year and next season may be to...though we really should hit the postseason next year, if the development is to continue moving forward.

Pronger was a force by his second season in St Louis (I think that was his 4th season), but flashed A LOT more than Z did early. Chara broke out when he moved to Ottawa. I get what you're saying and all defensemen take some time, but that clock is starting to tick. I'm not saying it is up, but is is getting close. He will be 23 here soon... defensemen peaks usually happen between 24-26. This might just be who he is.

 

[The Kingslayer]

He was on for goals 1, 4, and 5 against last night. I think we all agree their 1st goal was 100% his fault, but goals 4 and 5 really aren't on him. Goal 4 especially, that's just as weak a goal allowed by Varlamov as the Forsberg OT winner. Those shots can't go in.

The OT goal isn't on him, either. He's got his man, and he's yelling/pointing for Rantanen to take his man as well, which ends up being too late and they end up with a 3-on-1 against Barrie.

Not his best game, though.

To be fair to Mikko on that play he blocked the shot and was slow to get up so Dubois got a free lane. Looking back on the replay I don't even think Dubois meant to pass that to Jones looked like he lost it and Jones just happened to be there. At some point Varly is gonna have to make a massive save in OT. Not blaming him for the goal but at some point it be nice if he can make that stop to give them a chance. That 4th goal was Broissort bad.

 

[dahrougem2]

To be fair to Mikko on that play he blocked the shot and was slow to get up so Dubois got a free lane. Looking back on the replay I don't even think Dubois meant to pass that to Jones looked like he lost it and Jones just happened to be there. At some point Varly is gonna have to make a massive save in OT. Not blaming him for the goal but at some point it be nice if he can make that stop to give them a chance. That 4th goal was Broissort bad.

True, but Dubois never gets that opportunity to shoot if Mikko isn't standing around for 3-4 seconds watching the play and letting Dubois get free.

 

[Spleenless Wonder21]

I guess my main problem is that Johnson's mistakes are never highlighted to the extent that Barrie's are. Johnson is heralded as a 1D here when he doesn't bring the same dynamic on offense that Barrie does, and that I believe a true 1D should. This is excused by his good defense, but the opposite never holds true for Barrie.

Johnson makes mistakes. Barrie makes mistakes. Every defenseman makes mistakes, and a heck of a lot of them wind up in the back of the net; it's the nature of the position. But there's definitely a double standard in how each defenseman's mistakes are tallied up and used against him. Johnson's sound defense is enough to make up for his lack of offense compared to Barrie, but Barrie's offense isn't ever enough to make up for his deficiencies on defense compared to Johnson. It's like people think the point of hockey is to not get scored on instead of scoring and there's more value in the former than the latter.

I’m not saying it’s justified, and I’m all for holding onto Barrie, at least until one of Girard, Makar, or Timmons make him expendable (although I’m still not opposed to retaining him at that pt, if it’s Cap feasible), but I think EJ receives less criticism because he:

A. Didn’t have a messy contract dispute.

2. Isn’t as much of a defensive liability, which is what I want when a player occupies a position which literally includes the word defense.

 

[cgf]

Pronger was a force by his second season in St Louis (I think that was his 4th season), but flashed A LOT more than Z did early. Chara broke out when he moved to Ottawa. I get what you're saying and all defensemen take some time, but that clock is starting to tick. I'm not saying it is up, but is is getting close. He will be 23 here soon... defensemen peaks usually happen between 24-26. This might just be who he is.

It's starting to tick but I'll start to worry when he stops making progress. And a lot of these giants who needed work on the mental side didn't even stop struggling until they were 24-26, EJ's peak has been this season, Chara peaked much later than that, ditto Buff & Burns. Pronger was quicker than the others, but Pronger is also one of the greatest ever; and even he needed more time than the average talented blueliner.

It's why I haven't given up on Ekblad completely yet, even though I thought he was massively over-rated as a prospect.

 

[dahrougem2]

I'm on the side of giving Zadorov more time to grow. He's 22. Not saying people are claiming he's finished growing at 22 but there seems to be a sense of "if he doesn't get it soon, he'll never get it" and I think that's a reach. I can't recall which NHL player said it, might have been Cory Sarich on NHL Network Radio and I've seen it on HF a bunch of times too but there's the 300 NHL game threshold that defensemen usually go by where they tend not to fully develop into the "real" defensemen they will become until after game 300.

Zadorov is currently at 207 games played. Assuming he plays all 15 remaining games this season and then plays every single game next season, he'll cross that 300 game threshold in game 78 in 2019.

I get the consistency issues with him, but I think he's done a better job of cleaning that up this season. His consistent stretches of hockey have been longer IMO instead of the random 2-3 games here and there, and that's a good sign. He's worse off without EJ, no doubt, but I have faith in him moving forward.

 

[Freudian]

Ideally Zadorov should play 18 minutes a game this season but Barrie and EJ going down doesn't allow for that.

 

[henchman21]

He's only 22 for another month.

I get the idea that experience helps and matters, and Z hasn't reached the level where you'd expect him to be perfect. I think he needs to show more than he has though. To me Z's biggest issues might be of the incurable type... his IQ sputters and has has a real lackadaisical streak to him. The IQ can get mitigated a bit with experience, but lapses there do prevent players from reaching their potential all the time. The lackadaisical nature is incredibly difficult to hammer out of players... that might be the bigger issue of the two long-term. I want to be wrong here as Z has all the talent to be a great player, but I see some serious red flags popping up.

Z has always had stretches longer than 2-3 games. He was great towards the end of his season last year. That was a solid 10 game stretch and people were hoping he'd continue that trajectory this season. I see that as about the same bump as he had this year with a bit less offense.

 

[Pokecheque]

Haefele, in response to a question on Twitter, thought this might just be signs of a young team that's just plain worn out. That could very well be the case, a lot of these rookies have never played this much hockey in a single season before.

 

[dahrougem2]

That's why they need Andrighetto to be fully healthy and producing again. I thought he looked ok yesterday, but looked his best when paired with MacKinnon and Rantanen. Conversely, I didn't think Jost looked good with MacKinnon and Rantanen last night.