GDT: Game 4: Bruins @ Avs | Wed 10/11 7:30pm MT | Homecoming

[flyfysher]

Good game last night. A couple of thoughts about Duchene given some of the comments posted about him. First, Duchene obviously needs the right linemates. That's just a part of his game. We saw it with Fleischmann. If you keep Duchene, then you've got to surround him with the right players on his wings. The talent has always been there with Duchene and kudos to Sakic for not having undersold him. Hopefully, he won't do so. I'm a big Duchene fan so I'm in the don't trade him unless it is to fill that top pair LHD problem boat. No one likes being the involuntary subject of trade rumors but if the Oilers were willing to trade McDavid for Duchene (or MacKinnon or Landeskog or Rantanen or Jost, etc.) then what would you do? Bottom line, Sakic has an obligation to listen to trade offers.

Still, the Avs are lucky to a bona-fide scoring line in Kerfoot-Duchene-Yakupov. A PO contender must have that. The Avs players still need a bit of seasoning to mesh together, chemistry wise, but they are so much more skilled and deep. With a serviceable defense, this team will be fun to watch most of the time. But their one Achilles heel is their tendency to commit penalties.

 

[RockLobster]

Duchene has typically been given good linemates. The narrative that he doesn't get good linemates has been, countless times, exposed as a mere myth.

I'm glad the Avs won, I'm happy that he's finding success, but the guy still has to go.

 

[flyfysher]

Duchene has typically been given good linemates. The narrative that he doesn't get good linemates has been, countless times, exposed as a mere myth.

I'm glad the Avs won, I'm happy that he's finding success, but the guy still has to go.

Yeah, well we have a different point of view.

 

[RockLobster]

Yeah, well we have a different point of view.

Facts (such as linemate charts) back up my point of view, so...

 

[Foppberg]

I think more accurate would be that he never gets consistent linemates.

 

[RockLobster]

I think more accurate would be that he never gets consistent linemates.

And would that be because he has trouble finding chemistry with them? I would think so.

People like to point to his production w/ Flash and Mueller, but those were really small sample sizes. He and ROR had career offensive years, and then the two seemed to not have chemistry anymore the year after.

 

[JoemAvs]

Facts (such as linemate charts) back up my point of view, so...

Duchene had good linemates.

But usually not the right kind of linemates..

He also was always the guy that got settled with the vet on his last leg that no one else wanted to have on their wing over the last couple of years...

Duchene absolutely does not work with Landeskog..
Thats the only quality linemate he usually got longterm aside from ROR (who he meshed well with) when put up 70.
Stastny leaving changed that whole complexity and forced them to get split apart. Since he left, the
Avs haven't had that many other good wingers aside from rookie Rantanen.

He has worked very well with the likes of Mueller, Flash, etc...

It is no coincidence that his numbers slipped the moment Stastny left and MacKinnon was put at center.

Before that Stastny was asked to protect Duchene and got stuck with the crappy linemates all the time.

After Stastny was gone, Duchene had to take over that role atleast partially.
PAP and Iggy completely regressing from one year to the next certainly did not help either

I agree with you that he has to be moved (if he has made it obvious that he won't sign an extension and that seems very likely) before he bolts for free.

I once again highly disagree with you on your motives for why the deal has to happen. It has to be for the good of the Avalanche. Not just to get rid of a player you don't like...

 

[flyfysher]

Facts (such as linemate charts) back up my point of view, so...

I get it. You know so much better than anyone else. BS! Bet you didn't expect to see this type of play from Duchene. It'd really fit a lot better into your narrative if he played horrible wouldn't it. Every time I read your shtick it's always about Duchene has to go.

 

[Gentle Man]

Guys, Yak looks really good with Duchene. I'm very impressed so far. Looks fast and he hits.

I wanted him in the summer with Trocheck

 

[flyfysher]

Duchene had good linemates.

But usually not the right kind of linemates..

He also was always the guy that got settled with the vet on his last leg that no one else wanted to have on their wing over the last couple of years...

Duchene absolutely does not work with Landeskog..
Thats the only quality linemate he usually got longterm aside from ROR (who he meshed well with).
Avs haven't had that many other good wingers aside from rookie Rantanen.

He has worked very well with the likes of Mueller, Flash, etc...

It is no coincidence that his numbers slipped the moment Stastny left and MacKinnon was put at center.

Before that Stastny was asked to protect Duchene and got stuck with the crappy linemates all the time.

After Stastny was gone, Duchene had to take over that role atleast partially.
PAP and Iggy completely regressing from one year to the next certainly did not help either

I agree with you that he has to be moved (if he has made it obvious that he won't sign an extension and that seems very likely) before he bolts for free.

I once again highly disagree with you on your motives for why the deal has to happen. It has to be for the good of the Avalanche. Not just to get rid of a player you don't like...

SURPRISE, SURPRISE!

 

[RockLobster]

I get it. You know so much better than anyone else. BS! Bet you didn't expect to see this type of play from Duchene. It'd really fit a lot better into your narrative if he played horrible wouldn't it. Every time I read your shtick it's always about Duchene has to go.

Why would my favorite hockey team winning be horrible? I think you have me confused w/ someone else. Why would Duchene performing well upset me (because him doing so would, in theory, lead to a higher likelihood of the Avs having success)? I do maintain that he has to go, obviously, and it's because I don't worship at the Temple of Duchene like some do. The guy is a good hockey player, I've never said he isn't, all I've said is that I don't think he's as good as some people believe he is. My prediction before this season was that he wouldn't play to his capability, and that was because his history of mentally getting in his own way showed that there was a high likelihood of that happening this season, since the situation was even more strained than before.

It's not about "knowing so much better than anyone else", it's acknowledging the facts. On more than 1 occasion, Henchy has broke down Duchene's linemates to show that, actually, he has been given fairly decent-to-good linemates over his career, and I'll see if I can dig it up (not sure if we lost any old posts with the migration or not, a quick search through Henchy's post history only allows me to go back to September of this year...and I know that he had posted on this several times before then). But this isn't new, that myth has been debunked several times (I even think BSN did a story on it, or AJ has tweeted extensively about it).

 

[Ceremony]

Still fully on the decade of dominance from Yakupov and Duchene. Hopefully they announce their contract extensions simultaneously next summer.

 

[RockLobster]

I once again highly disagree with you on your motives for why the deal has to happen. It has to be for the good of the Avalanche. Not just to get rid of a player you don't like...

Here's where a legitimate "different points of view" come in to play: I don't hate Matt Duchene, I just don't think he's worth what his most ardent defenders believe he's worth. I do think Joe has gotten offers that he could have attempted to negotiate off of to come to a fair, reasonable, trade price, but he has refused to do so, apparently only wanting (to borrow a term from the FX show "The League") to trade-rape a team for MD's services.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Did everyone miss the fact that Duchene no longer has an "A" on his jersey (I know it was speculated when it was removed from the website last week, but I was waiting to see he first home game)? No way they pull that from him if there is any chance he sticks around.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Hilarious that it took 4 games for people to jump back on Duchene's bandwagon. He still should traded as long as he wants it and there's reasonable offer. Those saying Turris LOOL.

What's equally hilarious is the narrative that his teammates hate him and he's sulking are now gone.

 

[Ceremony]

Did everyone miss the fact that Duchene no longer has an "A" on his jersey (I know it was speculated when it was removed from the website last week, but I was waiting to see he first home game)? No way they pull that from him if there is any chance he sticks around.

Or even Bednar isn't stupid enough to leave a player in a visible leadership position when the GM's been trying to trade him for over a year

 

[flyfysher]

Why would my favorite hockey team winning be horrible? I think you have me confused w/ someone else. Why would Duchene performing well upset me (because him doing so would, in theory, lead to a higher likelihood of the Avs having success)? I do maintain that he has to go, obviously, and it's because I don't worship at the Temple of Duchene like some do. The guy is a good hockey player, I've never said he isn't, all I've said is that I don't think he's as good as some people believe he is. My prediction before this season was that he wouldn't play to his capability, and that was because his history of mentally getting in his own way showed that there was a high likelihood of that happening this season, since the situation was even more strained than before.

It's not about "knowing so much better than anyone else", it's acknowledging the facts. On more than 1 occasion, Henchy has broke down Duchene's linemates to show that, actually, he has been given fairly decent-to-good linemates over his career, and I'll see if I can dig it up (not sure if we lost any old posts with the migration or not). But this isn't new, that myth has been debunked several times (I even think BSN did a story on it, or AJ has tweeted extensively about it).

I'm about filling a strategic need if Duchene is to be traded or not letting him walk away for nothing. That means fixing the top LHD problem, not just getting rid of the guy as you seemingly would. It isn't just about Duchene's linemates although that is the aspect that I touched on. What about his record on the FO? History What does that mean for a team that can actually control puck possession (unlike last year)? Or his ability to draw penalties (IIRC, he did that numerous times last year). History While I'm a fan of Duchene, even he wouldn't be untouchable if the right trade came along. Neither would any of the other players. But I just don't get this, 'he still has to go' mantra.

 

[S E P H]

Just finished the game. Some notes...

- My god, are these jerseys beautiful. Definetly going to get one in sweden
- Solid overall performance. Turtle mode in 3rd period didn't seem as bad as last few seasons but still too much. Until then absolutely dominated the Bruins
- Yakupov. Wow. What a pickup. I hope he keeps his performance and either signs an extension or we get a nice asset at the TDL
- Whenever Duchene is gone, 13 and 64 will suffer
- What a move by Zadorov to stand up for Jost. Good boy
- EJ and Barrie played extremely calm and like 1st line D-men just on different pairings. This allows everybody on D to play his role and not play over his head
- the Powerplay looks good (finally after all these years)
- I was a bit concerned, in one slow-mo Varly looked like in pain

Overall a very good game. Let's see if the Bruins are just bad or we are actually decent.

Does this really matter though? We can only play who's in front of us, just like the Penguins, Vegas, and the Blues.

 

[hockeyfish]

By the way, My buddy picked up a brand spanking new Landy jersey at the Pepsi Center yesterday. Guess who they didn't have available!

 

[flyfysher]

Here's where a legitimate "different points of view" come in to play: I don't hate Matt Duchene, I just don't think he's worth what his most ardent defenders believe he's worth. I do think Joe has gotten offers that he could have attempted to negotiate off of to come to a fair, reasonable, trade price, but he has refused to do so, apparently only wanting (to borrow a term from the FX show "The League") to trade-rape a team for MD's services.

What do you think is fair for Duchene? And I'm specifically thinking of what return you foresee in terms of meeting the team's needs over say the next three years.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Love how the Duchene narrative has now went from "He never had a good wingers to work with" to, now that it has been proven wrong countless times, it's "He's never had the right wingers"....



Duchene at this point basically has a cult following here and the guy can do no wrong in the eyes of those followers.

 

[klozge]

I understand the Bruins are really bad right now but this was a great game by the Avs. Pure domination.

It'll be nice to see Sakic kneel before Duchene asking him to stay by the way.

Edit: And there's no reason to trade Duchene anymore. Our defense is not a problem anymore.

 

[Postanin CB Ting]

I wouldn't say these 4 games caused ppl to want Duchene to stay around as much as 1. Trade offers suck right now. 2. What he's bringing out of that line.
Don't think Jost right now would keep that line from falling apart.
64 9 13 ripping it up > d prospect

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Duchene has typically been given good linemates. The narrative that he doesn't get good linemates has been, countless times, exposed as a mere myth.

I'm glad the Avs won, I'm happy that he's finding success, but the guy still has to go.

The only thing that the "Duchene being given good linemates" thing has ever exposed is that when he has been given good linemates he has done really well (outside of Landeskog).

Plus even those "good" linemates we speak of is very subjective. Yeah there's names like ROR and Mackinnon. But then I see people saying Duchene's been given good linemates and start arguing names like Iginla which is not a "good" linemate. Being one of the better forwards on the Colorado Avalanche since 2009 doesn't make you a "good" linemate.

 

[RockLobster]

What do you think is fair for Duchene? And I'm specifically thinking of what return you foresee in terms of meeting the team's needs over say the next three years.

I think CBJ with a Murray/Carlsson + Bjorkstrand (or even Stenlund, but I don't think CBJ wants to give him up) + 1st/2nd would work (if it's Murray, since he has an NHL track recod, that would probably go down to a 2nd...even though I would like the Avs to hold firm at a 1st, that's just part of the negotiation)

I do believe Carolina came around with a Faulk++ package, and I would've taken that and worried about handedness later.

I'd look to Anaheim for something around Larsson

Nashville for Fabbro + Tolvanen + 1st (even though I'm not sure if the Avs value Tolvanen)

Last case scenarios would be Montreal for something around Galchenyuk (who I do think will thrive away from MTL) or if that Turris rumor actually has something there, then you do something around that w/ some additions on there (the last two would be under certain circumstances though).

But a Duchene trade isn't going to solve all of the Avs' problems. I do seriously question (and as of right now, do not believe) that he can get a top-flight LHD in return (like the Hanifin/Chabot's of the world), it's not for lack of trying, but Joe has been stonewalled on that pretty much for the last 1+ years (which should tell Joe that he's misevaluated his trade asset).