GDT: Game 32: Coyotes @ Blue Jackets - 5PM - FSAZ+

[BUX7PHX]

12 Dec 2016, fourth "first" year of rebuild: 9 wins
"It's too be expected. Coaching is fine. Be patient"

12 Dec 2017, first year of new system/coach: 7 wins
"Worst staff ever."

If Domingue/Hill would have allowed us 4 wins in the first 11 games, we'd have equaled last season's win total through the first 39 games (6 Jan) already. That's how far "behind" we are.

None of that is glowing endorsement of Tocchet who was not in my top three, but since the term "revisionist" is being thrown around, I thought maybe we should check in on actual history.

Guess I can keep throwing the word obtuse around.

2012-13 team roster: Yandle, Vrbata, Doan, Boedker, OEL, Hanzal, Korpikoski, Vermette, Gordon, Chipchura, Sullivan, Torres, Morris, Moss, Stone, Klesla, Michalek, Schlemko

2013-14 team roster: Yandle, Vrbata, Doan, Boedker, OEL, Hanzal, Korpikoski, Vermette, Ribeiro, Chipchura, Moss, Stone, Klinkhammer, Morris, Halpern, Michalek, Schlemko

So I took the liberty of listing all players that played in at least 50% of the games in the two seasons. Now, please explain to me what constitutes this first "rebuild" in 2012-13 vs. 13-14. The bolded are the changes. I see some small talent level changes (Ribeiro v Sullivan), but I don't see any sort of roster overhaul that would constitute a rebuild. I just find it very humorous that you are telling the "truth" about the rebuild having started four years ago, but clearly I don't know if you can honestly say that those changes YOY constituted "rebuild." If that is what a rebuild is, then every year, every team rebuilds. Even the Klesla exclusion in 13-14 is due to his injury, and likely he would have played in >50% of games that year.

Be honest - do you even know how to define rebuild? Cause that sure doesn't look like a rebuild.

Tell you what, let's put up a poll that all of HFBoards can vote on to decide when the Coyotes officially started this rebuild....

When you insist that a roster overhaul happened, and then we come to find it is a total of 3 player swaps that actually happened, it kind of makes you look like you have this grandiose idea that the more you say it, the more it actually happened. The president tends to have the same problem, so maybe not posting can help save the criticism or embarrassment (whichever you are a glutton of punishment for).

 

[_Del_]

I wonder if any team has ever had poor goal tending, young players and a new coach? Thats probably never happened before, hence the NHL record. Sure we have room to grow, we can only go up from here, no teams below us

A new coach (possibly the worst ever) with an eleven game stretch of the worst goaltending in recent memory has ONLY four fewer wins this season than the top five coach had with a top ten goalie had last season even giving him a buffer of 6 more games! I'm getting so f#ing excited about 2018!

 

[cobra427]

A new coach (possibly the worst ever) with an eleven game stretch of the worst goaltending in recent memory has ONLY four fewer wins this season than the top five coach had with a top ten goalie had last season even giving him a buffer of 6 more games! I'm getting so f#ing excited about 2018!

This coaching change and team right now is the definition of a train wreck. If a 40 some point pace over 1/3 of the way through the season doesn't convince any rational objective observer of that, not sure anything will. Reasonable expectations would have been a slight improvement over last years 72 points, call it 80 points (ish). We are on pace for 30-40 points below rational expectations. Glad you feel great about it, more power to you, the world needs more optimists

 

[Jakey53]

Guess I can keep throwing the word obtuse around.

2012-13 team roster: Yandle, Vrbata, Doan, Boedker, OEL, Hanzal, Korpikoski, Vermette, Gordon, Chipchura, Sullivan, Torres, Morris, Moss, Stone, Klesla, Michalek, Schlemko

2013-14 team roster: Yandle, Vrbata, Doan, Boedker, OEL, Hanzal, Korpikoski, Vermette, Ribeiro, Chipchura, Moss, Stone, Klinkhammer, Morris, Halpern, Michalek, Schlemko

So I took the liberty of listing all players that played in at least 50% of the games in the two seasons. Now, please explain to me what constitutes this first "rebuild" in 2012-13 vs. 13-14. The bolded are the changes. I see some small talent level changes (Ribeiro v Sullivan), but I don't see any sort of roster overhaul that would constitute a rebuild. I just find it very humorous that you are telling the "truth" about the rebuild having started four years ago, but clearly I don't know if you can honestly say that those changes YOY constituted "rebuild." If that is what a rebuild is, then every year, every team rebuilds. Even the Klesla exclusion in 13-14 is due to his injury, and likely he would have played in >50% of games that year.

Be honest - do you even know how to define rebuild? Cause that sure doesn't look like a rebuild.

Tell you what, let's put up a poll that all of HFBoards can vote on to decide when the Coyotes officially started this rebuild....

When you insist that a roster overhaul happened, and then we come to find it is a total of 3 player swaps that actually happened, it kind of makes you look like you have this grandiose idea that the more you say it, the more it actually happened. The president tends to have the same problem, so maybe not posting can help save the criticism or embarrassment (whichever you are a glutton of punishment for).

Good post. Most on this board do not know what a rebuild is because they have never seen a true rebuild, hell, most don't even know when the rebuild started. I'm not trying to be a smart a-- here but that is the reality.

 

[Jakey53]

This coaching change and team right now is the definition of a train wreck. If a 40 some point pace over 1/3 of the way through the season doesn't convince any rational objective observer of that, not sure anything will. Reasonable expectations would have been a slight improvement over last years 72 points, call it 80 points (ish). We are on pace for 30-40 points below rational expectations. Glad you feel great about it, more power to you, the world needs more optimists

I agree, but we are where we are. There is no use in pointing fingers because everyone is to blame. You can look at the owner that started everything in the off season and the way he handled the Doan and DT situation. He was all giggles sitting in his chair and answering questions. He was the king and he wanted to show to the world he is the owner of a NHL team. I also believed some of the moves Chayka made were because of AB, not all so he has to accept blame also. RT is coach so of course he has to accept much of the blame because of our record, but the players, especially most of the vets started the year like they were still in Hawaii. If you are not in shape, can't motivated yourself and don't want to follow the teams system this is what you get. RT did not, and has not held them accountable for their play. I believe there is a divided room as this team does not have a captain and I really think, maybe I'm wrong, but Stepan came here thinking he was above the rest because he came from NYC and never missed the playoffs etc. etc. I still think there is tension between Stepan and OEL. OEL should have been named captain as soon as Doan was gone. We are the youngest team in the league and no captain. Dumb, dumb, dumb. And we thought Edmonton was stupid.

 

[_Del_]

Oh, I forgot that one! Even more context-- thanks!
We don't have a captain, and we lost a veteran RW whose only value was in the room (AND Dave Moss)! And we got rid of our top five coach and top five (or maybe ten or 18) goalie! And we are giving youth minutes instead of Moss and Chip (which automatically makes a team worse by your own admissions)! And we had a complete 180 in coaching philosophy and brand new staff (worst ever), plus the heavy turnover! And we still have only FOUR fewer wins in 33 games than Tippett had in 39 games.

Holy #! I didn't actually realize exactly how ineffective Tippett was last year-- Stop it guys! It's a good thing I'm behind a desk because I think I'm getting aroused!

 

[BUX7PHX]

Oh, I forgot that one! Even more context-- thanks!
We don't have a captain, and we lost a veteran RW whose only value was in the room (AND Dave Moss)! And we got rid of our top five coach and top five (or maybe ten or 18) goalie! And we are giving youth minutes instead of Moss and Chip (which automatically makes a team worse by your own admissions)! And we had a complete 180 in coaching philosophy and brand new staff (worst ever), plus the heavy turnover! And we still have only FOUR fewer wins in 33 games than Tippett had in 39 games.

Holy #! I didn't actually realize exactly how ineffective Tippett was last year-- Stop it guys! It's a good thing I'm behind a desk because I think I'm getting aroused!

LOL - now you do seem borderline like our president.

If we want to be honest, the rebuild started in the 2015-16 season. I will even give the benefit of the doubt and say that the Yandle trade kicked it off, although we didn't move those prospects into the lineup until 15-16 season. Duclair, Rieder, Domi, Martinook, Dahlbeck - all players under the age of 23 that signified a changing of the guard. This coincides with our prospect pool actually adding players and getting rid of most remnants of the previous teams, save for Hanzal, OEL, and Doan. Further continued last year when we dropped Michalek to the AHL, traded Hanzal, and took on more young players in the lineup - Chychrun, Perlini, Dvorak, and Crouse. The fact that you keep referring to last year as being a "down" year was b/c we had officially moved into that rebuild stage. That's 8 names under the age of 24 on the roster - which we never had in 13-14, or 14-15. I don't know how else you classify a rebuild, but clearly you just keep repeating it until you have to believe it yourself. Usually heavy turnover consists of a rebuild as has been seen from 15-16 onward, but I am assuming that you are saying that this year isn't a rebuild either, since your rebuild definition consists of what happened in 2013-14 season, as reference by your verbal diarrhea of the "Fourth (first) rebuild."

And you are posting that we don't have a captain like that is a good thing (it's not).

Take a step back and follow everything that you are saying, b/c once you look at it, you see how everything that you are saying has pretty much been placed in your head by you. If you want to tell yourself that the rebuild happened in 13-14 so you can make your comparison look better, so be it. If you want to compare this year's team to last year's and say how much this team is overachieving compared to last year, you really need to get your head examined. I don't know how one can draw the conclusion that we are overachieving compared to last year's team when you look at the quality of players added in the 3rd true year of roster turnover, b/c that is what you are getting a hard on over - 4 fewer wins with a team that is made up of players that should be 4 wins BETTER than last season. You were the one who stated that Tippett lost the room. If that is the case, then Tocchet lost the room in the first week. You were the one who stated how we need someone to push the offensive pace to our team, and that will make it all better. But, we aren't better. Sounds like you are the one who is buying into your own BS that you shovel. You still haven't even answered my post of a simple question - what part of the 13-14 season signified a rebuild? B/c you know how much BS you are shoveling, but then when someone lays it out for you in black and white, you clam up, and go back to "Tocchet porn - so many holes on this team, you don't know which one to f***..."

Just delusional, at times...

 

[Tom Polakis]

A lot of roster comments and numbers getting thrown around in this thread, but my impression as the team approaches the halfway mark is that they fail the eye test. Say what you will about youth or adapting to a new system, but this team makes mistakes that no other team in the league makes, and it's close to 100 percent due to bad coaching. I was pleased with the decision to release Tippett last Summer, but I've never seen as poorly structured play from a team since I began watching them in 1996. Some of the defenses for this team's performance this season are laughable.

 

[Matias Maccete]

A lot of roster comments and numbers getting thrown around in this thread, but my impression as the team approaches the halfway mark is that they fail the eye test. Say what you will about youth or adapting to a new system, but this team makes mistakes that no other team in the league makes, and it's close to 100 percent due to bad coaching. I was pleased with the decision to release Tippett last Summer, but I've never seen as poorly structured play from a team since I began watching them in 1996. Some of the defenses for this team's performance this season are laughable.

Sadly I agree. I'm not ready to dump Tocchet, yet, nor do I think we can afford to do so anyway, but this is looking like it could be a disastrous hire. There's some very valid excuses, but those are starting to go away as we get healthy, get better goal tending, and we get practice time, and we're still looking pretty crappy pretty often. We can't seem to go more than a few games without having a complete dud, and even though we're fairly competitive most games, the fact that we didn't string together decent games is pretty sad.

 

[cobra427]

Sadly I agree. I'm not ready to dump Tocchet, yet, nor do I think we can afford to do so anyway, but this is looking like it could be a disastrous hire. There's some very valid excuses, but those are starting to go away as we get healthy, get better goal tending, and we get practice time, and we're still looking pretty crappy pretty often. We can't seem to go more than a few games without having a complete dud, and even though we're fairly competitive most games, the fact that we didn't string together decent games is pretty sad.

I agree. If Barroway/Chayka had it to do over again this summer, what do you think they would do? I think they would have figured out a way to keep Tip (if that was possible) and they would have hired somebody other than Tocc if they couldn't keep Tip. With adding Stepan/Tjam, they can't be happy with the performance of their coach.

 

[BUX7PHX]

I agree. If Barroway/Chayka had it to do over again this summer, what do you think they would do? I think they would have figured out a way to keep Tip (if that was possible) and they would have hired somebody other than Tocc if they couldn't keep Tip. With adding Stepan/Tjam, they can't be happy with the performance of their coach.

I don't necessarily think Chayka was on or off the ship on Tippett, one way or another.

Barroway, on the other hand....

 

[Ebb]

As mentioned about 30-50 times, there is no one person/element to blame for our horrid play this season. I believe almost everyone is to blame in some way and at some time so far this season. I doubt they would have tried to keep DT with the ownership change (there were obviously other things involved in that decision). With all of the changes, I'd say we are sort of in year 1 of a rebuild despite "inheriting" some of the pieces from the previous rebuild(s). Of course, in my mind, there is no set time in how many seasons a rebuild should take, especially with a team as volatile and ever-changing as the Coyotes.

F Tippett, F Tocchet, F Stepan, F Smith, F Domingue, F Goligoski, F Demers, F OEL , F Raanta's injuries, F Hjalms's injuries, F Chayka, F it all!!!​

I'll just be watching one game at a time and hoping that we have a semi-decent showing approximately half of the remaining games this season.

 

[cobra427]

I don't necessarily think Chayka was on or off the ship on Tippett, one way or another.

Barroway, on the other hand....

My comments are directly related to coaching in that Tip would have been a way better coach then Tocc this year for the Coyotes. That can't be disputed at this point unless your Delusional. Barroway might have wanted to strip Tip of making personnel decisions and Chayka/barroway wanted a younger roster to get minutes. That direction could have not sat well with Tip so he walked.

I still hope Tocc can turn this around. This is all water under the bridge anyway at this point. We can't look back and moving forward, Tocc will get the rest of this year and maybe next to turn it around. I don't see Barroway paying 3 head coaches at the same time.

 

[_Del_]

Tippett "walked", and everyone else is delusional...

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I think it's very likely, in fact most likely that the separation was indeed mutual. Barroway was looking to clean house and anyone that is not delusional would have to believe that Tippett had to be worn out and tired of this cheap arse organization. Yes, Chef Dave Tippett no doubt, was no longer interested in creating chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.

 

[Kaizen]

I think it's very likely, in fact most likely that the separation was indeed mutual. Barroway was looking to clean house and anyone that is not delusional would have to believe that Tippett had to be worn out and tired of this cheap arse organization. Yes, Chef Dave Tippett no doubt, was no longer interested in creating chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.

I don't think that's in dispute. Now if Tip had chosen not to negotiate a buyout he probably would have been turfed but then Barroway and/or the prior ownership group would have been on the hook for the balance of his salary. Reasonable minds on both sides decided that agreeing to part ways was the best alternative for all involved.

 

[RABBIT]

i can't believe you guys are still going on about this.

 

[Matias Maccete]

i can't believe you guys are still going on about this.

Only my second "like" ever, well earned.

 

[SniperHF]

Only my second "like" ever, well earned.

And who got the first one ?

 

[CC96]

i can't believe you guys are still going on about this.

I’m the President or at the very worst First Admiral of the Tippett hate club, and even I gave up on the Tippett trolling a month ago.

I’m literally at a loss for words

 

[Matias Maccete]

And who got the first one ?

I don't remember who, but it was something along the lines of "This like system is stupid".

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Oh, I forgot that one! Even more context-- thanks!
We don't have a captain, and we lost a veteran RW whose only value was in the room (AND Dave Moss)! And we got rid of our top five coach and top five (or maybe ten or 18) goalie! And we are giving youth minutes instead of Moss and Chip (which automatically makes a team worse by your own admissions)! And we had a complete 180 in coaching philosophy and brand new staff (worst ever), plus the heavy turnover! And we still have only FOUR fewer wins in 33 games than Tippett had in 39 games.

Holy #! I didn't actually realize exactly how ineffective Tippett was last year-- Stop it guys! It's a good thing I'm behind a desk because I think I'm getting aroused!

Maybe that explains it.

Seriously, dude, it's not that the team isn't that much worse than last year's team, it's that they aren't playing hard, aren't playing smart, and and seem to wilt under pressure. That's on the coach. Last night, Tocchet admitted that he didn't have the team ready to play (again).

Tocchet's failure is not a reflection on the wisdom of changing coaches, so enough with the we just want to go back to Tippett nonsense. Compare all you want, but Tippett is not the benchmark to judge Tocchet. It is time to sack Tocchet.

 

[Jakey53]

A lot of roster comments and numbers getting thrown around in this thread, but my impression as the team approaches the halfway mark is that they fail the eye test. Say what you will about youth or adapting to a new system, but this team makes mistakes that no other team in the league makes, and it's close to 100 percent due to bad coaching. I was pleased with the decision to release Tippett last Summer, but I've never seen as poorly structured play from a team since I began watching them in 1996. Some of the defenses for this team's performance this season are laughable.

I thought the majority of the problems were the players, but I may have been wrong. We are in most games but I just do not see the improvement that I saw last year. This should be a bubble team this year, but instead we will be picking top five. I thought RT was the best choice of the coaches they interviewed, but I would have liked the Coyotes to interview others.

Sadly I agree. I'm not ready to dump Tocchet, yet, nor do I think we can afford to do so anyway, but this is looking like it could be a disastrous hire. There's some very valid excuses, but those are starting to go away as we get healthy, get better goal tending, and we get practice time, and we're still looking pretty crappy pretty often. We can't seem to go more than a few games without having a complete dud, and even though we're fairly competitive most games, the fact that we didn't string together decent games is pretty sad.

Yup.

I agree. If Barroway/Chayka had it to do over again this summer, what do you think they would do? I think they would have figured out a way to keep Tip (if that was possible) and they would have hired somebody other than Tocc if they couldn't keep Tip. With adding Stepan/Tjam, they can't be happy with the performance of their coach.

Barroway couldn't wait to show he was boss. He f----- up big time. It will probably cost him the team. Rt I believe is here to stay as there are rumblings AB can't make payroll after next month.

I think it's very likely, in fact most likely that the separation was indeed mutual. Barroway was looking to clean house and anyone that is not delusional would have to believe that Tippett had to be worn out and tired of this cheap arse organization. Yes, Chef Dave Tippett no doubt, was no longer interested in creating chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.

I agree. DT, as usual, was the smart one of the bunch and got out of Dodge.

 

[Jakey53]

Maybe that explains it.

Seriously, dude, it's not that the team isn't that much worse than last year's team, it's that they aren't playing hard, aren't playing smart, and and seem to wilt under pressure. That's on the coach. Last night, Tocchet admitted that he didn't have the team ready to play (again).

Tocchet's failure is not a reflection on the wisdom of changing coaches, so enough with the we just want to go back to Tippett nonsense. Compare all you want, but Tippett is not the benchmark to judge Tocchet. It is time to sack Tocchet.

I don't think AB can afford to get rid of RT, unless they promote within, and then I doubt they can afford it.

 

[Jakey53]

I don't think that's in dispute. Now if Tip had chosen not to negotiate a buyout he probably would have been turfed but then Barroway and/or the prior ownership group would have been on the hook for the balance of his salary. Reasonable minds on both sides decided that agreeing to part ways was the best alternative for all involved.

DT let AB off the hook, but like Coyotedroppings said, DT was probably tired of all this nonsense.