GDT: Game 26: Avalanche vs Sabres | December 5, 2017 | 7 PM MT | Barbie Is Out

[henchman21]

I'd like to see a Comeau-Soda-Compher line actually. I think that has the right mix to snarl, defensive play, and offensive skill to be a fairly successful 2nd line. It won't be perfect, but it would have a shot. Then insulate Kerfoot and Yak on a 3rd line (with cushy offensive minutes). There really isn't a good LW to throw there, but I'd probably try Wilson first. He can help some defensively and give a bigger body on that line.

 

[Foppa2118]

I knew people would have this reaction toward Jost after he was put at center. I said it at the beginning of the thread.

His skating improvements over the summer were completely negated with that groin injury, and to top it off, his conditioning went out the window. He's still behind the eight ball conditioning wise. It seemingly happens to all players that get groin injuries and miss training camp. It takes months to get their legs under them.

Bednar should have realized this when he put him at center. Like I said at the beginning of the GDT, he just doesn't have the speed right now to play well down low in the D zone, and then get up into the scoring zone in the O zone and be dangerous. He's much more likely to just focus on his D zone play, and that will result in people thinking he's not ready for the NHL because of his lack of offense.

I'm fine with sending him to the AHL, but literally all he needs to work on is his first couple steps in his skating, and keep improving his conditioning. As soon as he's up to speed, he'll be able to play his game in the NHL, and he'll be a very good player.

 

[dahrougem2]

See, in my initial post I thought about Compher with Soderberg and Comeau but then I thought about Kerfoot and his struggles carrying a line and how that would continue if he's playing on the 3rd line with players like Yakupov/Andrighetto/Wilson/etc.

Not opposed to it by any means, though. Kerf seems to produce on the PP, so worrying about him at EV might not be the biggest issue.

 

[Piestany88]

I knew people would have this reaction toward Jost after he was put at center. I said it at the beginning of the thread.

His skating improvements over the summer were completely negated with that groin injury, and to top it off, his conditioning went out the window. He's still behind the eight ball conditioning wise. It seemingly happens to all players that get groin injuries and miss training camp. It takes months to get their legs under them.

Bednar should have realized this when he put him at center. Like I said at the beginning of the GDT, he just doesn't have the speed right now to play well down low in the D zone, and then get up into the scoring zone in the O zone and be dangerous. He's much more likely to just focus on his D zone play, and that will result in people thinking he's not ready for the NHL because of his lack of offense.

I'm fine with sending him to the AHL, but literally all he needs to work on is his first couple steps in his skating, and keep improving his conditioning. As soon as he's up to speed, he'll be able to play his game in the NHL, and he'll be a very good player.

Good points and he could play center in the AHL, whereas he can't here

 

[henchman21]

I don't think anybody is doubting Jost as a player/prospect and where he can go... just that right now, he can't play a big enough role on this team. He needs to be in a place where he can be put in a bigger role. The reasons really why don't really matter at this point, the how this is handled is what is important.

 

[Foppa2118]

I don't think anybody is doubting Jost as a player/prospect and where he can go... just that right now, he can't play a big enough role on this team. He needs to be in a place where he can be put in a bigger role. The reasons really why don't really matter at this point, the how this is handled is what is important.

I agree up until the last sentence. The why matters because if the why is only his skating (like I'm suggesting) than that determines how quickly he can play a top 6 role in the NHL.

What I can't tell is how much the conditioning aspect is affecting him. There's no way he's at 100% yet. Missing camp, and not being able to skate at full speed with a groin injury slows everyone down for a long time. Many guys in that situation have said they didn't feel comfortable until half way or 3/4 into the season.

Now if that's less an issue than just the pure mechanics of his skating right now, that matters as well. If he needs another year and full summer to work on his stride, and improve that explosiveness, it will take longer. I don't think anyone outside Jost or the training staff really know how much either is affecting him right now though.

 

[henchman21]

I agree up until the last sentence. The why matters because if the why is only his skating (like I'm suggesting) than that determines how quickly he can play a top 6 role in the NHL.

What I can't tell is how much the conditioning aspect is affecting him. There's no way he's at 100% yet. Missing camp, and not being able to skate at full speed with a groin injury slows everyone down for a long time. Many guys in that situation have said they didn't feel comfortable until half way or 3/4 into the season.

Now if that's less an issue than just the pure mechanics of his skating right now, that matters as well. If he needs another year and full summer to work on his stride, and improve that explosiveness, it will take longer. I don't think anyone outside Jost and the training staff really know how much either is affecting him right now though.

What I am saying with that, is that Jost's skating is far enough behind that whether it is injury or just poor skating that is holding it back doesn't matter right now. He needs to be put in a place where he can play a role with where his skating currently is at, and that clearly isn't the NHL. How long it takes his skating to come around would determine whether he gets called back up in January or next season or longer. Until he can skate at an above average level, he isn't going to be able to play center in a top 6 role in the NHL. If he just needs to recover fully and get his legs under him, let him do that in the AHL where he can play center in a scoring role.

 

[chet1926]

I don't think anybody is doubting Jost as a player/prospect and where he can go... just that right now, he can't play a big enough role on this team. He needs to be in a place where he can be put in a bigger role. The reasons really why don't really matter at this point, the how this is handled is what is important.

I think this is pretty accurate, right now they are just jerking him around from spot to spot and expecting results even though they give him no meaningful ice time.

At this point it needs to be either commit to Jost as an NHLer and give him 16-18 minutes a night, 2nd unit PP time ie: 3+ minutes a night depending on how many PPs, lots of cushy offensive starts, and constant decent linemates like Kerfoot and Compher, and live with the growing pains of the entire line.

And if you're not willing to live with that scenario you have to send him to the AHL to play a bigger role there.

This crap of being one of the lowest ice time guys other than Yakupov, Nieto and Wilson and getting no PP time and being shuffled around the lineup is not good for his development in any way shape or form.

I personally perfer the NHL route, it's not like we are competing for the playoffs this year, and rather Jost take his lumps in the NHL where we can have constant eye on him and hopefully coach him up when he does make mistakes. But if they prefer the AHL route than I'm good with that as well, as long as they give someone like Greer the opportunity at the NHL level in his spot. The last thing I want to see is Grimaldi or Aggozino play an extended role with the team as that doesn't help improve the future of the team.

 

[Foppa2118]

What I am saying with that, is that Jost's skating is far enough behind that whether it is injury or just poor skating that is holding it back doesn't matter right now. He needs to be put in a place where he can play a role with where his skating currently is at, and that clearly isn't the NHL. How long it takes his skating to come around would determine whether he gets called back up in January or next season or longer. Until he can skate at an above average level, he isn't going to be able to play center in a top 6 role in the NHL. If he just needs to recover fully and get his legs under him, let him do that in the AHL where he can play center in a scoring role.

I agree with all of that. I think we've finally found a common ground with regard to him.

Though I'd add a caveat, that it's not out of the question that if his lack of conditioning is a major factor, he potentially could stay with the big club, and battle through this rough patch until he's up to speed. That could take a couple weeks or a month or two, hard to tell.

It wouldn't be pretty but he'd still be learning new things every day at the NHL level with NHL players and NHL coaches, that he might not in the AHL. The positives could outweigh the negatives.

The only concern I have with that is him risking injury due to not being able to evade contact well enough at NHL speed. He's almost been caught with his head down a couple times already, but saw it at the last second.

Risto almost sent him to the moon last game in the neutral zone, but he bailed on the play and saved himself.

 

[henchman21]

The last thing I want to see is Grimaldi or Aggozino play an extended role with the team as that doesn't help improve the future of the team.

I'd argue that Jost taking a top 6 C spot in the AHL while Grimaldi or Agz take the 12/13th forward spot does more for the Avs long-term than Jost being a 4th liner/spot 3rd liner in the NHL. It doesn't help the Avs this year, but I think it helps a lot next year.

 

[chet1926]

I'd argue that Jost taking a top 6 C spot in the AHL while Grimaldi or Agz take the 12/13th forward spot does more for the Avs long-term than Jost being a 4th liner/spot 3rd liner in the NHL. It doesn't help the Avs this year, but I think it helps a lot next year.

If we're calling up someone to be that 12/13th forward it better be Toninato and not either of the smurfs. Just play Toninato at 4th line center as he'll never develop much past what he currently is, and let Bourque ride the bench and sub in occasionally. There is absolutely no need for Grimaldi or Agz, unless Ghetto or Yak become too unbearable to send out.

Landy-MacK-Rants
Kerfoot-Compher-Yak/Ghetto
Nieto-Soderberg-Comeau
Wilson-Toninato-Yak/Ghetto
Bourque

 

[henchman21]

If we're calling up someone to be that 12/13th forward it better be Toninato and not either of the smurfs. Just play Toninato at 4th line center as he'll never develop much past what he currently is, and let Bourque ride the bench and sub in occasionally. There is absolutely no need for Grimaldi or Agz, unless Ghetto or Yak become too unbearable to send out.

Landy-MacK-Rants
Kerfoot-Compher-Yak/Ghetto
Nieto-Soderberg-Comeau
Wilson-Toninato-Yak/Ghetto
Bourque

I'm fine with that... my point was that Jost going to the AHL and developing there would have more long-term impact than him here in a 4th line role. Who replaces him isn't a big deal to me. Could be Toninato, could be Grimaldi, could be Petryk... Jost's long-term development should be the priority over 1 NHL roster spot.

 

[chet1926]

I'm fine with that... my point was that Jost going to the AHL and developing there would have more long-term impact than him here in a 4th line role. Who replaces him isn't a big deal to me. Could be Toninato, could be Grimaldi, could be Petryk... Jost's long-term development should be the priority over 1 NHL roster spot.

Agreed if they continue playing him the way we've been seeing there is no point in Jost playing the NHL, he isn't learning anything of value.

 

[Raucherhusten]

All of you are right saying Jost is better of getting first line minutes in the AHL than 4th line minutes in the NHL.

BUT what most of you seem to forget is that Bednar played Jost with Kerfoot and Compher before Landy decided to take a quick vacation by hitting Tkachuk in the head. Why not give that line a serious look before we write Jost off and send him down? This could be one of our scoring lines starting next season - why not start THIS season and let them develop some chemistry? And if, after 10 games or so, Jost still looks shaky then sure, send him down. What do we have to lose? Do you really think that 10 games more or less of AHL experience would make such a huge difference?

This is what i mean with being patient. Because of injuries and limited minutes Jost was MEH so far - i admit that. But giving him a real chance on a real scoring line for an extended period could change that. At least that is my believe.

 

[Rumplesnipeskin]

Puck making it out of the zone wasn't even the part that came into question, so not sure why that would have an impact on the call.


The question on the play was whether or not the Sabres forwards touched up before re-entering the zone. And I thought the evidence was pretty conclusive that they did.


NHL has screwed the Avs on a number of calls this year, last night was not one of them. It was a good goal no question.

Gotcha - I only saw the game recap where they were focusing on the puck leaving the zone (no mention of a tag up) - that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the explanation

 

[the_fan]

This team has been so poor at drafting and developing quality players on both offense and defense that even when they trade a top forward like Duchene to get a d-man, they still have holes upfront and on blueline. With Duchene gone now they really need offense on second line, and the defense still needs upgrades. Just amazing how poorly this organization has been ran since the salary cap.

 

[Foppa2118]

Toninato should be in the NHL. He's as legit a 4th line center as the Avs have had in a while. Plays that role perfectly.

He hasn't taken a whole lot of face-offs, but at least he's 50%. Percentage wise, only Mikko is better on the team. If Toninato can continue to improve this aspect of his game, as well as the PK, he could become a solid contributor.

 

[Bender]

I knew people would have this reaction toward Jost after he was put at center. I said it at the beginning of the thread.

His skating improvements over the summer were completely negated with that groin injury, and to top it off, his conditioning went out the window. He's still behind the eight ball conditioning wise. It seemingly happens to all players that get groin injuries and miss training camp. It takes months to get their legs under them.

Bednar should have realized this when he put him at center. Like I said at the beginning of the GDT, he just doesn't have the speed right now to play well down low in the D zone, and then get up into the scoring zone in the O zone and be dangerous. He's much more likely to just focus on his D zone play, and that will result in people thinking he's not ready for the NHL because of his lack of offense.

I'm fine with sending him to the AHL, but literally all he needs to work on is his first couple steps in his skating, and keep improving his conditioning. As soon as he's up to speed, he'll be able to play his game in the NHL, and he'll be a very good player.

Jost was playing center last night? I seem to remember him maybe taking a few faceoffs after Kerfoot got kicked out but as far as I could tell, he was playing LW all night and Kerfoot was the guy lined up at center, no?

 

[Foppberg]

Moving forward, say 3~ years down the road, I see it something like..

Landeskog-MacKinnon-Rantanen
Jost-Compher-xxx
Greer-Kamenev-xxx/Kerfoot?
xxx-Totinato-xxx/Bowers?

Girard-EJ
Zadorov-Makar
xxx-Meloche

 

[tigervixxxen]

Toninato should be in the NHL. He's as legit a 4th line center as the Avs have had in a while. Plays that role perfectly.

He hasn't taken a whole lot of face-offs, but at least he's 50%. Percentage wise, only Mikko is better on the team. If Toninato can continue to improve this aspect of his game, as well as the PK, he could become a solid contributor.

He was a positive CF% player too unlike the other called up forwards.

 

[Foppa2118]

Jost was playing center last night? I seem to remember him maybe taking a few faceoffs after Kerfoot got kicked out but as far as I could tell, he was playing LW all night and Kerfoot was the guy lined up at center, no?

Well Bednar as usual blended up his lines, even when the game was 0-0, but the report from warmup was he was at center.

He started the game between Andrighetto and Grimaldi for his first couple shifts. Then he switched to center on Kerfoot’s line. He only took three face-offs during the game, while Kerfoot took 5, but that isn’t that telling. His man was Soda on at least a couple line changes, while Kerfoot’s was a winger in the 1st period. That’s more telling.

Then in the second period Bednar shuffled it up and he started on wing with Kerfoot at center for his first couple shifts. Then was back at center between Comeau and Nieto following a PP. Then back on wing with Kerfoot. Then back at center between Yak and Ghetto following another PP. Then between Mikko and Ghetto following a PK.

Then he was back on Kerfoot’s wing to start the 3rd. Then sat for a while due to not being on special teams. Then had his last couple shifts between Wilson and Ghetto.

So you know, good solid stable environment for a rookie to keep things simple, and get accustomed to the NHL.

 

[Patagonia]

Jost did have a good game and his skating was stronger, but he is obviously injured. How good could he have been if properly healed and had more conditioning? You don't need to push him and hurt his confidence.

Most posters seem to agree he should be sent down. There is no need for him to struggle to possibly re-injure himself.

 

[KraftD]

I’m expecting a big game from Landy. Needs to set the tone in the room.

 

[Pokecheque]

Keep in mind players can get hurt in the AHL as well (Compher, Bigras, Greer).

I dunno, I feel like he was called up way too early, but I also wonder if they can bring him along slowly in a 3rd line role.

I also don't see a ton of upside to sending him to the WJC.