GDT: Game 25: Denver Avalanche vs. Shining Stars | Sunday, December 3rd, 6pm MT

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chet1926

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I need to both critique and praise Bednar for what he did in this game. I’ll start with the critique.

I was talking recently about how the Avs are partially to blame for the league being stricter on the Avs suspensions than they are with other teams, because their head coach and GM don’t complain whatsoever. This lets them know they can do whatever they want, while other coaches and GM's work the league and officials to get an advantage on the next call.

This carries over to officiating within games as well. Here is a perfect example.

It starts with a chincy penalty called at the end of the 2nd period by the linesman who should have dropped the puck, or at the very least threw out Spezza who cheated with his right foot. Instead the linesman held on to the puck and called a penalty on a face-off outside the zone that should have just been over and done with, because it didn't hold a big advantage to anyone.

Camera cuts to Bednar who couldn’t care less. Most coaches in the league would be yelling or at least talking to the ref here trying to work them for the next power play. Let them know that was a BS call and they need to make up for it.



Then come a series of penalties on the same sequence of play that could have been called if the refs were looking to even things up and give the Avs a PP, but we’re let go.

First it’s Lindholm taking a high hit that snaps his head back, and directly causes a turnover that leads to a partial 2 on 1 against. Then it’s Lindholm again skating through the slot behind the play, who takes a little hook around the waist from Radulov that could have been called if the refs were looking to even up the calls. Then it’s another too many men call let go where the puck again hits the 6th man’s foot.

Finally after all of those are let go by the refs during the same sequence without a whistle, Dallas scores a backbreaker to make it 5-2. Goal never would have happened if the refs were looking to give the Avs a PP to make up for that chincy face-off call.



On the bright side, I need to praise Bednar for what looks to be a realization that he was ruining Zadorov with his hardass treatment. I've been preaching for a while now that this has never worked with him, and he needs a coach to pump his tires to get him to believe in how good he can be.

He had played a couple pretty good games in a row and was on his way to having a great game last game, but then made that bad turnover that cost the team a goal.

Instead of putting Z in the doghouse, he put him right back out on the ice, and played him a ton the rest of the game. Ended up being 2nd in ice time behind EJ.

If he would have benched him after that play, I think he might have lost confidence in himself again, and played a scared game tonight, but instead he looked very strong and confident again in himself and his reads to make big hits and jump into the play.

Kudos to Bednar for setting aside his ego and making an adjustment on something that I think was really hurting Zadorov’s development. Hopefully they both keep it up.

Once again coaches and GMs at the NHL level don't lose their cool very often. It's not like Bednar is the only coach who is calm, and I honestly can't recall the last time a GM said something about a suspended player or called out the league, so I don't expect Sakic to do those things either.

For the Avs we've been getting the butt end of many calls for over a year now because we are a bad team. It wouldn't matter if Bednar laid into the refs or not, we're still going to get the majority of the bad calls against us because refs tend to favor the better team. It happens in every major sport.

Once the Avs become a consistently better team we'll start to get more favorable calls. It's just how it works.
 

Raucherhusten

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Even keel most of the time is fine but it wouldn't hurt to show some disapproval over a bad call now and again. All the greats were great whiners.
In the past 2 post game interviews he said something like "I don't like the call". That's something, right? And probably the most "raging" Bednar you will ever see.
 

dahrougem2

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Coaches can be even keel but almost all coaches are constantly speaking to officials and a lot of them are yelling at them in order to get their attention.

It's nice that Bednar can be even keeled, but he also has to know when to let the refs have it.
 

S E P H

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I've noticed lately that I keep coming across posts about how we cannot trade a goaltender. Sorry, maybe I am blind, but I have no no clue why that is the case? Specifically I keep seeing how we cannot trade Bernier because we have no backup. Ehhhhhhhhhh, what? I am not judging this team solely on last night, but this team is not a playoff team. Actually, this team was never a playoff team. I totally get it that we want to see as many wins as possible due to last season. I do too, but it just isn't the case for this year, the Central is too strong and Avs hovering around .500 which they have been the whole season isn't playoff numbers. So if this club isn't a playoff team, who cares if we trade Bernier for a good draft pick and grab Hammond as our backup. We are in a unique spot where teams are desperate for a quality back up and Bernier is just that. He was extremely poor yesterday and deserved the yank, but I argue that he's played much better than his save percentage of 0.891 indicates. The worst that can happen for us is Avs roll a team of Cannata and Hammond and one more loss is a loss closer to Dahlin (or a higher percentage at the lottery spots).
 

henchman21

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Corsi doesn't equal possession. Puck on stick is harder to track, but it doesn't always go with Corsi. The Avs are having to adjust to teams that have adjusted to the Avs' offensive style. Things have been very across the seam this season, and teams have started moving their 2F to those lanes to just tip passes or discourage them from being attempted.
 

S E P H

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Anyone watch that MacKinnon after hours interview? He specifically said Bednar being even keel helps him because he's an emotional player.
Are you saying that we have to baby MacKinnon now? I ask because I look at Pittsburgh who have one of the best coaches in the game and he is NOT even-keel. Sullivan constantly yells at his players (E: and refs), but does it in a fair enough manner that his players gain his respect. I remember the last game against Flyers where they went down something like 3-0, 4-1, or 3-1 and he called a timeout. He yelled at them the full 30 seconds and they came back and won the game. Sullivan demands accountability and lacks a "feel sorry for us" attitude which has brought him two Stanley Cups. Not saying that Bednar is a push over or wants to lose needlessly, but yesterday was a perfect game to call a time out during the goaler change and rip into them. Mike seems like a tough, but fair and valuable coach to play for. You're saying that MacKinnon would fail in Penguins because Sullivan is one of the tougher coaches demanding a lot from his players?
 
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S E P H

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Uh, the point was about what an actual player said as opposed to fanwanking
And you think a player would openly criticize his head coach in front of a national audience? Like what were you expecting? Players constantly say unicorn and rainbow comments about teammates, managers, and coaches they don't care about it because the "team" is more important.

E: Should note this does not mean MacKinnon secretly hates Bednar as a conspiracy. He could be realistically telling the truth, but hockey players have good poker faces where fans will question everything.
 

chet1926

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Are you saying that we have to baby MacKinnon now? I ask because I look at Pittsburgh who have one of the best coaches in the game and he is NOT even-keel. Sullivan constantly yells at his players, but does it in a fair enough manner that his players gain his respect. I remember the last game against Flyers where they went down something like 3-0, 4-1, or 3-1 and he called a timeout. He yelled at them the full 30 seconds and they came back and won the game. Sullivan demands accountability and lacks a "feel sorry for us" attitude and that has brought him two Stanley Cups. Not saying that Bednar is a push over or wants to lose needlessly, but yesterday was a perfect game to call a time out during the goaler change and rip into them. He seems like a tough, but fair and valuable coach to play for. You're saying that MacKinnon would fail in Penguins because Sullivan is one of the tougher coaches demanding a lot from his players?
Sullivan also has a team comprised of veteran players who've won back to back Cups that should know how to play hockey the right way and probably need a good swift kick in the ass to wake them up when they are playing like trash

We have a team of mainly young guys and rookies who are still just learning the NHL game, you can't just chew them out at every turn because you'll destroy any confidence they might have. I wouldn't mind seeing a little more aggression from Bednar in situation like last night, but he can't just chew his guys out at every turn. He has to use mistakes as learning tools, it's tough to do that on the fly during a game.

I wouldn't mind seeing players get "benched" a little more frequently just to send them a message. Like last night with Kerfoot after his inexcusable giveaway that led the 5th goal, there was 15ish minutes left, and I probably would have sat him the rest of the game, to show him that he can't make that play. Same goes for other players, Girard had a rough game a couple games back maybe he needed to sit for a period, so he could get his head on straight. Sometimes young guys just don't have it during a specific game, last night Kerfoot didn't have it and was hurting the team.
 
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Bender

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Only two things for me 'stick out' from this game :

1) Bednar took too long to yank Bernier. After the 3rd goal would have been sufficient to realize he doesn't have it on this night let alone leaving him in for that Pateryn goal. In fact, why START Bernier at all to begin with? Next opponent is Buffalo...give him THAT game, no??

2) Dallas could have been (and should have been) called TWICE on too-many-men penalties when the puck hits the 6th player's skate. I don't care that the player was going off, we've been burned by that very same call many, many times over the years. Both times, it immediately led to Dallas goals against within the next minute or so.

At this point, it seems very likely that the annual “Dallas Stars - NHL Referees Summer BBQ” isn't just something that I concocted out of my imagination but it appears to be a very real thing. :skeptic:
 

dahrougem2

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I don't know how much Varly would have done given the lethargic play of the team, but I did state prior that it seemed very, very weird to have Bernier start this game even if he shut out the Stars last time. You typically play your backup goalie against weaker teams and in back-to-back situations; this was neither.
 

chet1926

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Only two things for me 'stick out' from this game :

1) Bednar took too long to yank Bernier. After the 3rd goal would have been sufficient to realize he doesn't have it on this night let alone leaving him in for that Pateryn goal. In fact, why START Bernier at all to begin with? Next opponent is Buffalo...give him THAT game, no??

2) Dallas could have been (and should have been) called TWICE on too-many-men penalties when the puck hits the 6th player's skate. I don't care that the player was going off, we've been burned by that very same call many, many times over the years. Both times, it immediately led to Dallas goals against within the next minute or so.

At this point, it seems very likely that the annual “Dallas Stars - NHL Referees Summer BBQ” isn't just something that I concocted out of my imagination but it appears to be a very real thing. :skeptic:
1. Agreed, Bernier was in suck mode, Bednar has to recognize this before the game is out of hand.

2. Glad I wasn't the only person upset with the no calls on the too many men, just because you're going off doesn't mean you're off the ice. If the puck hits you it hits you and it should trigger a too many men penalty. Guarantee had the roles been reversed they'd called the Avs on it.
 

S E P H

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I don't know how much Varly would have done given the lethargic play of the team, but I did state prior that it seemed very, very weird to have Bernier start this game even if he shut out the Stars last time. You typically play your backup goalie against weaker teams and in back-to-back situations; this was neither.
I am no fan of Don Cherry, but I suggest he is absolutely right in how you use your back up goaler. It should be in unwinnable games on the road in places such as Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Chicago, Washington, and Tampa Bay. Like we saw with Giguere against Penguins in that miracle season. Not saying you're wrong either.
 
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henchman21

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I am no fan of Don Cherry, but I suggest he is absolutely right in how you use your back up goaler. It should be in unwinnable games on the road in places such as Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Chicago, Washington, and Tampa Bay. Like we saw with Giguere against Penguins in that miracle season. Not saying you're wrong either.

Yep... use the starter against the worst teams to ensure those wins while in the midst of the regular season. Down the stretch that might change, but in the middle of the season, try to rack up as many points as possible.
 

the_fan

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Yeah, you can't lose to the Sabres before going on a four game road trip that includes the Bolts, Pens, and Caps.

Also, whether fair or not, there will be a lot of fingers getting pointed at Landeskog if the Avs lose that game and go 1-3 in his absence.
Fingers should already be pointed at Landeskog, he let the team down as the captain.
 
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avs1dacup

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2. Glad I wasn't the only person upset with the no calls on the too many men, just because you're going off doesn't mean you're off the ice. If the puck hits you it hits you and it should trigger a too many men penalty. Guarantee had the roles been reversed they'd called the Avs on it.

Not only those, but add to it the play that Ghetto beat the Dallas player to the puck on an icing, but the Dallas player beat him to the close hashmark and they refused to admit a mistake and move the faceoff to center ice.

And talk about frustration, does anyone, players and coaches included, have a clue what goaltender interference is anymore? Why is the rule not black and white like high sticking? You touch the goalie while they're in the blue AT ALL(accidental, pushed, purpose), it's a penalty. Instead, they have to go the NFL catch route and make the rule as ambiguous and judgemental as can be. Simple is usually better for stuff like this.
 

dahrougem2

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I can see that line of thinking as well, and wouldn't be opposed to it. If we were to use that style, though, then I'd have to believe the starts would have been Varly vs Dallas, Varly vs Buffalo and Bernier vs Tampa
 

Foppa2118

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Once again coaches and GMs at the NHL level don't lose their cool very often. It's not like Bednar is the only coach who is calm, and I honestly can't recall the last time a GM said something about a suspended player or called out the league, so I don't expect Sakic to do those things either.

For the Avs we've been getting the butt end of many calls for over a year now because we are a bad team. It wouldn't matter if Bednar laid into the refs or not, we're still going to get the majority of the bad calls against us because refs tend to favor the better team. It happens in every major sport.

Once the Avs become a consistently better team we'll start to get more favorable calls. It's just how it works.

That's not actually true. The majority of coaches react in some fashion to the refs after bad or weak calls. It's not about losing their cool behind the bench, it's about making their point heard, as opposed to apathy.

As for GMs and coaches reactions to suspensions, somebody from a team almost always reacts to bad hits against their players that could be suspendable. They say something along the lines of that hit or play being dirty, or that it's the kind of play they're trying to take out of the game, etc. Almost always.

If it's their player in question, then someone will make some kind of comment trying to shift the narrative of the story away from their player being suspended. Downplay the incident, without telling the league what to do.

This is the polar opposite of Bednar who flat out said "no" when asked point blank whether one of the best defenseman on a division rival (Trouba) should be suspended for a high hit that concussed Duchene. He literally defended Trouba saying it was incidental contact, even though he went right at him and hit him in the head with his glove or forearm and concussed him.

Same with how he handled Landy's play. Said it could go either way in terms of a suspension. He didn't need to say that. He could have said something else that doesn't basically give the league the green light to do whatever they please.

The impression being given is that the Avs roll over, they don't push back and make a stink that pressures refs and the league to not be so harsh, or give them a make up call. Which would be just fine, if 30 other teams were taking this same approach, but they aren't. This puts the Avalanche at a distinct disadvantage over the course of an 82 game season and beyond.

You don't have to be an emotional distraction behind the bench, to work the referees and league concerning penalties and suspensions.
 

Ceremony

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The best thing to come out of this game is the use of the term fanwanking

(Also that Blake "A" Comeau will absolutely be sold for parts unknown in February)
 

The Kingslayer

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In the past 2 post game interviews he said something like "I don't like the call". That's something, right? And probably the most "raging" Bednar you will ever see.

Its not gonna matter what he says post game since nobody cares to watch. I want him saying it to the refs during the game every now and then. Its not like what hes doing now is doing his team any favors in terms of calls.
 

the_fan

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Which one is it? Is he a terrible captain, or is he a key part of their success? Can't have it both ways.
He's not a terrible captain, and he is suppose to be the key part of this team becoming a winning team someday. What he did was stupid,specially wearing the C. If the Avs were a winning team, a powerhouse or whatever, i'd still say it was a dumb play by him, but it wouldn't look as bad because the team was an established team.

The Avs suppose to be getting better and better, and they can't have players, specially the captain do stuff like that, because this 4 games that he's suspended, he's not helping the team improve, it's hurting the team. I didn't say he was a terrible captain, just not a very good one, and IMO, he should not be the captain of this team, i said this all along not just for the recent suspension. I'd give the C to MacKinnon, as he's starting to become the player we all hoped for, and he can actually lead by example.
 

Foppa2118

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He's not a terrible captain, and he is suppose to be the key part of this team becoming a winning team someday. What he did was stupid,specially wearing the C. If the Avs were a winning team, a powerhouse or whatever, i'd still say it was a dumb play by him, but it wouldn't look as bad because the team was an established team.

The Avs suppose to be getting better and better, and they can't have players, specially the captain do stuff like that, because this 4 games that he's suspended, he's not helping the team improve, it's hurting the team. I didn't say he was a terrible captain, but IMO, he should not be the captain of this team, i said this all along not just for the recent suspension. I'd give the C to MacKinnon, as he's starting to become the player we all hoped for, and he can actually lead by example.

Why would you strip the C from someone who you acknowledge is so important, the team goes on a losing streak without him?
 
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