Future HOFers: Judge them

[Sens Rule]

Or Compare Mike Bossy to Kurri. They are very similar. Compare the first ten seasons of Kurri's career with Bossy's full ten year career. Both played on great Dynasty teams. Both while great on their own had teammates in Trottier, Potvin, Coffey, Messier, Gretzky who were better or at least won more trophies. Both played in the same high scoring era, both played a ton of playoff games. Both made the playoffs in all 10 seasons. Both had an incredible level of sustained dominance.

Bossy led the NHL in goals twice. Kurri once. Kurri led the playoffs in goals 4 times, Bossy 3, plus Bossy led the playoffs in scoring once. Kurri averages 56.6 goals per year and 124.5 points and Bossy 65.8 goals and 128.6 points per season including playoffs.

Bossy won one Smythe trophy and 3 Byng trophies. Kurri won 1 Byng trophy. Bossy is an 8 time end of year All-Star while Kurri is a 5 time All Star.

Clearly Bossy has the edge but Bossy is 31st on your list and Kurri is 138th. There is not nearly that big of a difference between the 2 in my opinion.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Or Compare Mike Bossy to Kurri. They are very similar. Compare the first ten seasons of Kurri's career with Bossy's full ten year career. Both played on great Dynasty teams. Both while great on their own had teammates in Trottier, Potvin, Coffey, Messier, Gretzky who were better or at least won more trophies. Both played in the same high scoring era, both played a ton of playoff games. Both made the playoffs in all 10 seasons. Both had an incredible level of sustained dominance.

Bossy led the NHL in goals twice. Kurri once. Kurri led the playoffs in goals 4 times, Bossy 3, plus Bossy led the playoffs in scoring once. Kurri averages 56.6 goals per year and 124.5 points and Bossy 65.8 goals and 128.6 points per season including playoffs.

Bossy won one Smythe trophy and 3 Byng trophies. Kurri won 1 Byng trophy. Bossy is an 8 time end of year All-Star while Kurri is a 5 time All Star.

Clearly Bossy has the edge but Bossy is 31st on your list and Kurri is 138th. There is not nearly that big of a difference between the 2 in my opinion.

The biggest difference is that Bossy was a top 7 vote getter for the Hart trophy 4 times and won a Conn Smythe. Kurri was never a top 7 Hart vote getter and never won a Conn Smythe. That is a huge difference.

Bossy was also a top 7 point scorer 8 times, Kurri was only 4 times. Bossy was a top 7 goal scorer 9 times (led the league twice) and Kurri was a top 7 goal scorer 4 times (led the league once).

So, when you add all of that up, Bossy did have a significantly more dominant career than Kurri.

 

[Sens Rule]

One player, no matter how good, cannot make a team win. I do give credit for being on a cup winner but, I don't give credit for leading the playoffs in scoring or goals. It is like I said before, I don't blame Marcel Dionne for playing on a crappy team. Some of the best players in the NHL don't get the chance to lead the playoffs in scoring. Winning does matter and that is why I reward cup wins but, to reward playoff scoring would skew things too much, IMO.

I disagree on not weighting playoff stats. Sometimes players on teams that only make it to the third round can be high or lead the playoffs in scoring. Forsberg, Gilmour and Federko in St.Louis in 1986 (I think)

You should not be weighting high for the Smythe trophy while not counting other playoff stats. That doesn't make sense. If you are doing just regular season fine but if you only count a couple of things from the post season but discount most of it that skews your rating system. Like Dionne never had a chance to win a smythe but Lafleur did have the chance to do it.

It is your rating system, I am just trying to help you out not put it down.

 

[Sens Rule]

The biggest difference is that Bossy was a top 7 vote getter for the Hart trophy 4 times and won a Conn Smythe. Kurri was never a top 7 Hart vote getter and never won a Conn Smythe. That is a huge difference.

Bossy was also a top 7 point scorer 8 times, Kurri was only 4 times. Bossy was a top 7 goal scorer 9 times (led the league twice) and Kurri was a top 7 goal scorer 4 times (led the league once).

So, when you add all of that up, Bossy did have a significantly more dominant career than Kurri.

Bossy did have a more dominant career no doubt. I am not disputing that I am just saying that it is not that far off from Kurri's career.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I disagree on not weighting playoff stats. Sometimes players on teams that only make it to the third round can be high or lead the playoffs in scoring. Forsberg, Gilmour and Federko in St.Louis in 1986 (I think)

You should not be weighting high for the Smythe trophy while not counting other playoff stats. That doesn't make sense. If you are doing just regular season fine but if you only count a couple of things from the post season but discount most of it that skews your rating system. Like Dionne never had a chance to win a smythe but Lafleur did have the chance to do it.

It is your rating system, I am just trying to help you out not put it down.

I appreciate the feedback you are bringing forth some very intelligent points. It is a nice change from the verbal abuse I take most of the time.

I try to make the system as fair as possible to all players across NHL history so I can make a fair comparison. You do make a valid point but, the Smythe is too important of an award to ignore. I have compiled the playoff scoring stats for the NHL's history because I planned to use the information in the ratings. But, I felt it was unfair to players like Dionne. Perhaps I will think about it and reconsider my feelings about it. I do appreciate your constructive input.

 

[Garbs]

Everyone with 1,400 points is in the HHOF. Until Turgeon hits 1,400 points, it will be an "automatic point," much like 700 goals.

Let's say Sundin ends his career hovering just below 600 goals, and just below 1400 points, which I think is a very real possibility. He demolishes every Leaf record known to man, yet never gets a Stanley Cup, and continues to perform just below a PPG average in the playoffs until the end of his career.

A) In your estimation, does he deserve to be in?
B) Will they vote him in?

Also, if he does hit 1400, does your opinion change?

 

[arrbez]

One player, no matter how good, cannot make a team win. I do give credit for being on a cup winner but, I don't give credit for leading the playoffs in scoring or goals. It is like I said before, I don't blame Marcel Dionne for playing on a crappy team. Some of the best players in the NHL don't get the chance to lead the playoffs in scoring. Winning does matter and that is why I reward cup wins but, to reward playoff scoring would skew things too much, IMO.

Honestly, if I were to use one, it would be the opposite. To lead the playoffs in scoring is quite an accomplishment. You can't do that by accident.

However, you can win a cup by being in the right place at the right time. And for some of the top players in question, I think it could skew the stats quite a bit, depending on how much weight you give a cup victory. Luc Robitaille in 2002, for instance. His days of greatness were long gone by that time, and his 9 points in 23 games wouldn't move me to give him any extra points on my personal list.

There's probably no good way to make ratings for the playoffs though, as the teams they play on have so much to do with it.