from 11 to 10

Status
Not open for further replies.

bleedgreen

Registered User
Dec 8, 2003
23,736
38,184
colorado
Visit site
hockey fans just dont want to see teams in the desert - thats the only arguement against here. there is no logical explanation for why vegas wouldnt be good at pro hockey - or any pro sport for that matter. the local population is plenty big enough to support the base, there is plenty of big money, and a constant flow of touristst to round it out. it would fit right in with the tourists who need a 3 hour break from all you can eat buffets and casinos. its exactly what vegas could use - something thats a little different from they are known for, but it fits in at the same time. hey, before we blow the rest of our cash gambling until 6 in the morning - lets go see the hockey game and have a few beers. where in north america would people say no thanks to that? they would probably outsell everyone else on a tuesday night in feb., because there is always a ton of people in vegas - its always on.
 

Ol' Dirty Chinaman*

Guest
futurcorerock said:
Fair enough. Believe it or not if marketed properly, the New Mexico Oilers and the Mexico City Flames may draw equal or better than their former cities.

I'd even wager to say the Houston Canucks will do the best of the three, though :sarcasm:

The point about Vegas is the city's population is growing at a staggering rate. The Vegas team would have no problem filling their venue with season ticket holders. Tourism is just another added incentive, not their sole revenue.

Also, they've had games there before which were successes.

If it helps any, i hear when Columbus moves, Mexico City residents will be able to pronounce Zherdev much better.

Are we done throwing the insults around ?

Sue me for wanting grassroots enthusiasm and tradition in the game. If Vegas is such a fantastic market, why hasn't any of the big 3 expanded there yet ? Hmm ?
 

bleedgreen

Registered User
Dec 8, 2003
23,736
38,184
colorado
Visit site
ODC said:
If it helps any, i hear when Columbus moves, Mexico City residents will be able to pronounce Zherdev much better.

Are we done throwing the insults around ?

Sue me for wanting grassroots enthusiasm and tradition in the game. If Vegas is such a fantastic market, why hasn't any of the big 3 expanded there yet ? Hmm ?
until its no longer legal to bet on a sport, no pro team of any sport can move there. i think it was covered earlier. they have been trying for years to get a team there of any sport - pretty well known.
 

Hasbro

Family Friend
Sponsor
Apr 1, 2004
52,407
16,372
South Rectangle
bleedgreen said:
until its no longer legal to bet on a sport, no pro team of any sport can move there. i think it was covered earlier. they have been trying for years to get a team there of any sport - pretty well known.
As a condition to buy the Sacremento Kings the Maloofs had to get rid of basketball betting in their casinos, UNLV has had enough problems to make any league leary, and give up trying to enforce curfew while your team is taking a road trip there. So being our national temple of vice works against Vegas.
 

futurcorerock

Registered User
Nov 15, 2003
6,831
0
Columbus, OH
ODC said:
If it helps any, i hear when Columbus moves, Mexico City residents will be able to pronounce Zherdev much better.

Are we done throwing the insults around ?

Sue me for wanting grassroots enthusiasm and tradition in the game. If Vegas is such a fantastic market, why hasn't any of the big 3 expanded there yet ? Hmm ?

Aww... :cry:

When we start talking about moving teams in Canada, or your team you get defensive? That's why I dont get why it has to be a one way street with regards to contracting/moving teams. Wasn't it the Oilers who threw out the most staggering threat about the lockout that they wouldn't even exist if we went with the February proposal?

Well... Baseball nearly came to Las Vegas, as it was one of the finalists before the team was put in Washington, where IMO it belongs to be back. Basketball very well might end up in Vegas when it's all said and done if their plans to host the ASG go through well. Football's number one priority with expansion is to get it's butt back into Los Angeles. We know how well Football is doing, so expansion there is a viable option.

I mean, even you could advocate that rampant expansion is bad for business. These kinds of things take time. 15 years ago Las Vegas was just a resort town. Now they're a city that is seeing some of the most prolific growth numbers in the entire United States. There's proof in successful-yet-nontraditional markets that Hockey can flourish. Since you're focused on Climate with this, you can look right to Texas and Southern Californa, where they are producing some young promising talent that is capable of competing with their Canadian counterparts. If it's possible there, why can't it be in Las Vegas?
 

kdb209

Registered User
Jan 26, 2005
14,870
6
bleedgreen said:
until its no longer legal to bet on a sport, no pro team of any sport can move there. i think it was covered earlier. they have been trying for years to get a team there of any sport - pretty well known.

No. There are no legal issues with respect to gambling that prevent a team from moving to Vegas. There are/were many professional sports teams in Vegas - just not "Major" professional sports, although some would argue that Arena Football is now more of a major US sport than the NHL.

Las Vegas Thunder (defunct) - old IHL (also defunct)
Las Vegas Gladiators - Arena Football League
Las Vegas 51s - AAA affiliate of the LA Dodgers
Las Vegas Posse (defunct) - Canadian Football League

Any hesitancy for a league to move to Vegas is purely a PR issue. And if Baseball with it's history of the Black Sox and Pete Rose is willing to look at Vegas (It was a candidate for the Expos relocation), then any sport will.

And I think gambling will be less of a taboo with the NHL than it would be for the other major US sports. Doesn't BC (and I beleive Ontario) have provincial lottery sports betting - I haven't heard the league (or anyone) complain about that.
 

mr gib

Registered User
Sep 19, 2004
5,853
0
vancouver
www.bigtopkarma.com
futurcorerock said:
Aww... :cry:

When we start talking about moving teams in Canada, or your team you get defensive? That's why I dont get why it has to be a one way street with regards to contracting/moving teams. Wasn't it the Oilers who threw out the most staggering threat about the lockout that they wouldn't even exist if we went with the February proposal?

Well... Baseball nearly came to Las Vegas, as it was one of the finalists before the team was put in Washington, where IMO it belongs to be back. Basketball very well might end up in Vegas when it's all said and done if their plans to host the ASG go through well. Football's number one priority with expansion is to get it's butt back into Los Angeles. We know how well Football is doing, so expansion there is a viable option.

I mean, even you could advocate that rampant expansion is bad for business. These kinds of things take time. 15 years ago Las Vegas was just a resort town. Now they're a city that is seeing some of the most prolific growth numbers in the entire United States. There's proof in successful-yet-nontraditional markets that Hockey can flourish. Since you're focused on Climate with this, you can look right to Texas and Southern Californa, where they are producing some young promising talent that is capable of competing with their Canadian counterparts. If it's possible there, why can't it be in Las Vegas?
vegas would be great
 

bleedgreen

Registered User
Dec 8, 2003
23,736
38,184
colorado
Visit site
i would be surprised if in 10 or 15 years all three major sports arent in vegas....hockey too. just seems like a great location for sports teams - hoops and baseball especially.
 

Ol' Dirty Chinaman*

Guest
futurcorerock said:
Aww... :cry:

When we start talking about moving teams in Canada, or your team you get defensive? That's why I dont get why it has to be a one way street with regards to contracting/moving teams. Wasn't it the Oilers who threw out the most staggering threat about the lockout that they wouldn't even exist if we went with the February proposal?

Well... Baseball nearly came to Las Vegas, as it was one of the finalists before the team was put in Washington, where IMO it belongs to be back. Basketball very well might end up in Vegas when it's all said and done if their plans to host the ASG go through well. Football's number one priority with expansion is to get it's butt back into Los Angeles. We know how well Football is doing, so expansion there is a viable option.

I mean, even you could advocate that rampant expansion is bad for business. These kinds of things take time. 15 years ago Las Vegas was just a resort town. Now they're a city that is seeing some of the most prolific growth numbers in the entire United States. There's proof in successful-yet-nontraditional markets that Hockey can flourish. Since you're focused on Climate with this, you can look right to Texas and Southern Californa, where they are producing some young promising talent that is capable of competing with their Canadian counterparts. If it's possible there, why can't it be in Las Vegas?

Yeah, who cares about those stupid Canadians, Expos fans be damned !

Since you need to be beaten with a clue stick, Canada and Canadian teams are the lifeblood of the league. If you can't comprehend and its ramifications, then I have no time explain it.

There's many reasons outside of hockey that a team in Vegas does not belong, but I'm not going to waste any more energy on a pointless debate with you since you are willing to sell out the league and the game like a whore.

And finally, I'm right, you're wrong. Have the last word and deal with it.
 

bleedgreen

Registered User
Dec 8, 2003
23,736
38,184
colorado
Visit site
ODC said:
Yeah, who cares about those stupid Canadians, Expos fans be damned !

Since you need to be beaten with a clue stick, Canada and Canadian teams are the lifeblood of the league. If you can't comprehend and its ramifications, then I have no time explain it.

There's many reasons outside of hockey that a team in Vegas does not belong, but I'm not going to waste any more energy on a pointless debate with you since you are willing to sell out the league and the game like a whore.

And finally, I'm right, you're wrong. Have the last word and deal with it.

this is excessive. he has many valid points, while yours seem to be based in that all hockey teams that arent in ice clad cities are "whoring" the game. this thread isnt about where hockey belongs as far as the traditional hockey fan is concerned, its about where hockey is a viable business with its new financial outlook. many of these cities are possibilites - and vegas is imo inevitable for pro sports and likely hockey. how is he selling out the game? its already been sold out with teams named the mighty ducks and all across the south. there is nothing you can do about it - you cant snap your fingers and make it go away. its about hockey finding a strong finiancial base to work out of. i understand your love of the game and canada - but he is right, calgary and edm have struggled for years much like buffalo and pitts has. if people want to contract teams why are these teams left out? they are just as likely to fail financially as any southern us team - but to talk about it is taboo. i dont want the oilers or the flames to fold - but they are on just as unstable finincial ground as any us team you choose to dislike. vegas is an obvious choice for a future market - the next team that moves is certainly a possibility to move there.
 

futurcorerock

Registered User
Nov 15, 2003
6,831
0
Columbus, OH
ODC said:
Yeah, who cares about those stupid Canadians, Expos fans be damned !

Since you need to be beaten with a clue stick, Canada and Canadian teams are the lifeblood of the league. If you can't comprehend and its ramifications, then I have no time explain it.

There's many reasons outside of hockey that a team in Vegas does not belong, but I'm not going to waste any more energy on a pointless debate with you since you are willing to sell out the league and the game like a whore.

And finally, I'm right, you're wrong. Have the last word and deal with it.
You have yet to prove that you are right by any means. Your responses are quick and lack any form of argument against the team in Vegas. Moreso, you sound more offended that I would besmirch those beloved Canadian teams - especially based on your avatar, the Canucks.

I'll give you that yes, the lifeblood of the league does exist in Canada and that the NHL in recent years has allowed this to fall on deaf ears, creating a Catch 22 where it seems the most basic core market has been largely ignored by the league that was created from it. However, my point was that when these discussions come up about new cities being added, people are so quick to nominate Bible Belt teams for relocation, and often back it up with modest argument. I'm playing devil's advocate and asking a very basic question of why it has to be one of these teams. Granted their on-ice successes are lackluster at best, and in places like Carolina the attendance can reach as low as 8,000 a game. But what about some of the other teams? Where's the credibility? The statement (having trouble finding it... anyone recall?) made by the Edmonton front office was to offer some insight that wasn't so narrow and biased about obvious fact that it isnt only those southern teams who are ailing.

In the same respect, as much as Canada is the lifeblood of the league in terms of heritage and fan support, America is equally, if not more... Because if the American product were nonexistent, the NHL would never be where it is today. The NHL would be a niche sport battling the likes of Major League Lacrosse and the Nationial Women's Football League. Those prized Flames and Oilers would boast superstar talent of the likes of Robert Kron and Tomi Kallio as the NHL's talent would be playing in some European Superleague where the money is at.

Again, to steer this ship back in the right direction to express my argument: Las Vegas' contention to land a team has some solid merit. Reading the thread, I know some stereotypes exist about the hearlded gambling roots - but how do you argue that a city that is the same metro size as other hockey markets like Columbus and Nashville simply tourism? Gambling is becoming less the issue and is no longer the city's sole source of revenue. In the past 10 years, many of the entertainment industry's revenues have come from seeing those once free shows and taxing decadence not on the casino floor, but in the absolutely enourmous night life that has sprung up with gambling. Alongside this is the obvious growth that has occured in and around this desert resort.

Athletes mired in this? They'd do it in any city. A few years back, Theoren Fleury and a few Chicago Blackhawks got busted at a Columbus, Ohio stripclub for fighting. Not to say the storied troubles of Theo Fleury had some influence, but the point made is that not-so-famed activity could occur in any city and shouldn't lampoon the Vegas ideal by saying that it would moreso.

And anyways, No team in the desert? We're already in the desert. Phoenix Coyotes, anyone?

To close, it's all devils advocacy here. I think the first city that's going to land a team, if there's relocation or expansion any time soon, is Kansas City. Even then, by the time the NHL steers itself away from imminent destruction there may already be a pro team in Vegas, so this would all be moot-point argument.
 

X0ssbar

Guest
bleedgreen said:
hockey fans just dont want to see teams in the desert - thats the only arguement against here. there is no logical explanation for why vegas wouldnt be good at pro hockey - or any pro sport for that matter. the local population is plenty big enough to support the base, there is plenty of big money, and a constant flow of touristst to round it out. it would fit right in with the tourists who need a 3 hour break from all you can eat buffets and casinos. its exactly what vegas could use - something thats a little different from they are known for, but it fits in at the same time. hey, before we blow the rest of our cash gambling until 6 in the morning - lets go see the hockey game and have a few beers. where in north america would people say no thanks to that? they would probably outsell everyone else on a tuesday night in feb., because there is always a ton of people in vegas - its always on.

Exactly.. nice post.

I've been to vegas plenty of times (and have lost plenty of dough in the process). The corporate support for a pro-team, any pro team, would be mind boggling in Vegas.

Everything is comp'ed in Vegas. I can see the advertisements now - come stay at 'x' hotel b/c we have $4 dollar steak dinners and we'll give you two free tickets to an NHL game. All of the casino resorts would offer some kind of a NHL ticket package as a bonus to stay in their hotel.

You can only gamble so long in Vegas before you need a break and this is the city that never, ever sleeps. That is why you see so many shows in Vegas - tourists need a break from gambling and most people in Vegas are there on vacation and have lots of time and money to spend.

Also - Nascar has already beat everybody to the punch out there and you "bet" you can already buy "Nascar" vacation packages to Vegas.

I see nothing but potential in this market - especially for the first pro league who takes the chance.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
futurcorerock said:
Since you're focused on Climate with this, you can look right to Texas and Southern Californa, where they are producing some young promising talent that is capable of competing with their Canadian counterparts. If it's possible there, why can't it be in Las Vegas?
Yes but you ignore the fact that due to climate, Canadian kids all learn to play on frozen ponds and outdoor rinks here in Vancouver :biglaugh:
 

mini-mite fan

Registered User
Feb 4, 2005
184
0
MN, USA
look, I was being a smart-alec through most of my previous post in this thread, because I have a hard time taking this too seriously as we HAVE NO PRODUCT TO ACTUALLY SELL TO A "NEW" MARKET. :eek:

IF the league was looking to expand, would Vegas work? Yes, I agree it would p'bly a great market and a profitable team.

a) The problem that I have using the expansion word ever, but moreso now - is that I hate to see "expansion" at the loss of another. I have a hard time accepting that most teams that get moved out of a market couldn't have made a turn around with league intervention & the same "expansion" cash to help aid their situation. I know there are exceptions, but it seems to me Bettman treats it as the rule.

b) When we do have a product back on the ice. I think profits (if there are any) are going to need to be directed at building back the fan base in existing markets & worry about new markets after we get the ship pointed back in the right direction.

After that, Vegas would actually be a good choice - whether we'd be the first pro franchise in the door or not.
 

bleedgreen

Registered User
Dec 8, 2003
23,736
38,184
colorado
Visit site
mini-mite fan said:
look, I was being a smart-alec through most of my previous post in this thread, because I have a hard time taking this too seriously as we HAVE NO PRODUCT TO ACTUALLY SELL TO A "NEW" MARKET. :eek:

IF the league was looking to expand, would Vegas work? Yes, I agree it would p'bly a great market and a profitable team.

a) The problem that I have using the expansion word ever, but moreso now - is that I hate to see "expansion" at the loss of another. I have a hard time accepting that most teams that get moved out of a market couldn't have made a turn around with league intervention & the same "expansion" cash to help aid their situation. I know there are exceptions, but it seems to me Bettman treats it as the rule.

b) When we do have a product back on the ice. I think profits (if there are any) are going to need to be directed at building back the fan base in existing markets & worry about new markets after we get the ship pointed back in the right direction.

After that, Vegas would actually be a good choice - whether we'd be the first pro franchise in the door or not.
i didnt think we were talking expansion to be honest, i assumed we were talking about where the next teams that move would go. i think its inevitable that teams move regardless of the cba - and im just defending vegas as a good location in the future. i dont want expansion either.
 

Pavel

Registered User
Mar 1, 2004
2,592
0
Houston
free0717 said:
Remove Nashville also. Al they care about is Football, ACC Basketball and NASCAR

Check your facts. Not sure why Nashville would care about ACC Basketball since they are in SEC territory.
 

bleedgreen

Registered User
Dec 8, 2003
23,736
38,184
colorado
Visit site
Pavel said:
Check your facts. Not sure why Nashville would care about ACC Basketball since they are in SEC territory.
is carolina in the acc? he might have meant to make fun my canes instead ;) . they get them southern teams mixed up sometimes.
 

futurcorerock

Registered User
Nov 15, 2003
6,831
0
Columbus, OH
Wetcoaster said:
Yes but you ignore the fact that due to climate, Canadian kids all learn to play on frozen ponds and outdoor rinks here in Vancouver :biglaugh:
So? Do best players have to learn on outdoor rinks to further expand the game? That doesnt answer why there are players coming out of Texas and Southern California. By that logic, The Inuits should be dominating the NHL.

We're looking at what's on the surface here with expansion - Can Las Vegas consistently put up revenue numbers year in and year out which compete with the rest of the NHL?

IMO, the answer is yes.
 

mini-mite fan

Registered User
Feb 4, 2005
184
0
MN, USA
bleedgreen said:
i didnt think we were talking expansion to be honest, i assumed we were talking about where the next teams that move would go. i think its inevitable that teams move regardless of the cba - and im just defending vegas as a good location in the future. i dont want expansion either.

Several here have used the term expansion. And regardless whether we're talking move or expansion - you're talking a "new" market. IMO, take better care of the ones you got. Dallas has proven that they can support the Stars, but did the NHL really have to bend Minnie-Apples over to enter the Texas market??? No. They're very lucky the Wild have had as much instant support as they've had. Several other instances can be also shown as examples.

for the record: I'm an Av's fan - cause I grew up in the Midwest & "dis-owned" the Stars franchise after growing up a hardcore Northstars nut. Then when I lived in Colorado and we got the Av's (another stolen team) & they became my new favs. Now that we're back in the midwest, while I do support the Wild - I still consider the Av's as my (suedo)"home team". But, I would have supported a brand new team just as much as or maybe even more than the transplanted/stolen N'diques!
 
Last edited:

futurcorerock

Registered User
Nov 15, 2003
6,831
0
Columbus, OH
mini-mite fan said:
Several here have used the term expansion. And regardless whether we're talking move or expansion - you're talking a "new" market. IMO, take better care of the ones you got. Dallas has proven that they can support the Stars, but did the NHL really have to bend Minnie-Apples over to enter the Texas market??? No. They're very lucky the Wild have had as much instant support as they've had. Several other instances can be also shown as examples.
Actually, your argument here is completely valid, though out of place.

We're talking about which markets would be best suited for an NHL franchise. If you asked any of us when said relocation would occur. We'd shrug and just move on. If you asked any of us when expansion would occur, we'd laugh, roll our eyes, and start talking about the lockout.

All this is, is just an analysis of markets which would be best suited for an NHL franchise. In no way, shape, or form does it mean that we are stating that the NHL will be carrying through with these movements any time soon. The last chance we had was back a few months ago when the Ducks went up for sale, but ofcourse the ownership group has kept the team put in Anaheim and the speculation goes on.
 

bleedgreen

Registered User
Dec 8, 2003
23,736
38,184
colorado
Visit site
mini-mite fan said:
Several here have used the term expansion. And regardless whether we're talking move or expansion - you're talking a "new" market. IMO, take better care of the ones you got. Dallas has proven that they can support the Stars, but did the NHL really have to bend Minnie-Apples over to enter the Texas market??? No. They're very lucky the Wild have had as much instant support as they've had. Several other instances can be also shown as examples.

for the record: I'm an Av's fan - cause I grew up in the Midwest & "dis-owned" the Stars franchise after growing up a hardcore Northstars nut. Then when I lived in Colorado and we got the Av's (another stolen team) & they became my new favs. Now that we're back in the midwest, while I do support the Wild - I still consider the Av's as my (suedo)"home team". But, I would have supported a brand new team just as much as or maybe even more than the transplanted/stolen N'diques!
i hear ya - im from hartford....im one of those who was "bent over" - i dont want anyone to go through what you and i have both been through... but its crazy to think it wont happen again. people will want to get out of the business, fan interest peaks and drops, sooner or later the combo happens at the wrong time and someone moves. im a canes fan now, so i hope they make it, but it wouldnt shock me at all if one of the "newer" team gives it up sometime down the road. maybe even an older team gives up the ghost and moves on. like futurecorerock said, if asked when i thought the next round of expansion should occur...my eyes would glaze over and i would slowly nod off into deep slumber.
 

joepeps

Registered User
Jan 2, 2004
12,697
674
Toronto
Visit site
Ol' Dirty Chinaman said:
I dont' get this reasoning.

Tourists aren't going to Vegas to watch ice hockey. Most of the time, those tourists are coming from areas that already have hockey, so why would they go there and pay for a hockey game ?


I can't get tickets in TO.. if I went to vegas i'd see the leafs.. lol or anyone else for that matter :dunno:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->