Freep: Expected Holland moves during off-season?

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sepster

Gerard Gallant is my Spirit Animal
Aug 19, 2005
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If you ask me, the Wings want to bring Cleary back.
But my guess is that Cleary thinks he's worth a raise. And maybe some team that needs cup winning experience would pay him a raise

St James wrote a puff piece on him basically saying Cleary is worth more than the $3M the Wings paid him last year

http://www.freep.com/article/20130615/SPORTS05/306150059/daniel-cleary-red-wings-contract

St James is a Wings slappy whose "analysis" of the Wings is about as deep as a puddle on a hot summer's day. I don't think it is possible for her to write anything approaching criticism regarding the Wings.
 

WingedWheel1987

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Jan 11, 2011
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Cleary is coming back, lets not kid ourselves. Unless Ken Holland isn't them GM of the Detroit Red Wings anymore, we can all look forward to more Cleary. Kenny loves washed up veterans. His Ark of garbage won't be complete without Cleary.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Um... Look at his peripherals... He's basically a traffic cone. Kyle Quincey, I kid you not, statistically,is a better Dman.

I hate this kind of stuff over just watching them which is a decisive advantage to Scuderi. He was absolutely massive in both Cups his teams won. I guess advanced statistics don't back him, looks like we shouldn't want Slava Voynov here either....
 

JmanWingsFan

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I was hoping for more like 8M, but yes, I fear you are right.

He tried to predict what summed up to be a losing record for the Wings this year. The only backing people have that Holland has a veteran fetish and loves to hoard guys like Cleary are essentially using only the last several years where the salary cap only allowed him to pick up cheap vets and maintain the team that won the cup, rather than let him upgrade. I doubt Cleary is back. Even if he is, (and it won't be the end of the world) he aint' making $3.5 milion AAV.

we shouldn't want Slava Voynov here either....

His on ice Corsi is positive, and the only reason his relative corsi is in the negative is because even though the Kings control the puck more often when he's off the ice than on. But on ice corsi of +8 is nothing to sneeze at. Not to mention, 2.76 GAA/60 isn't bad either. He did have a negative quality of teammates. I don't know what you're talking about. I'd love to have Voynov on the team.
 
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SportsballChic

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He tried to predict what summed up to be a losing record for the Wings this year. The only backing people have that Holland has a veteran fetish and loves to hoard guys like Cleary are essentially using only the last several years where the Salary cap only allowed him to pick up vets and maintain the team that won the cup, rather than let him upgrade. I doubt Cleary is back. Even if he is, (and it won't be the end of the world) he aint' making $3.5 milion AAV.

That may well all be true; I wasn't here for that. I don't however get the impression that Holland is lying when he says that he wants Cleary back. Additionally I do think his playoff might sucker someone into ponying up 3 million a year for 3; though not necessarily Holland.

My perception is that Cleary is seen as a warrior who's made key sacrifices for the franchise; I don't see Kenny cutting him loose and I don't see him lowballing Cleary to 1.5 million either.

Prediction: 3 years, 2.25-2.5 a year and Cleary will take it despite having a 2 year 3 a year deal sitting someplace else.

Note: this is NOT what I want to happen, it's just what I believe will happen based on my understanding of Babcock, the player, the Wings organization and the Free Agent market in general.

There are a LOT of terrible GMs in the NHL looking for a "proven, veteran winner who can play special teams and ups his game in the playoffs."
 

JmanWingsFan

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That may well all be true; I wasn't here for that. I don't however get the impression that Holland is lying when he says that he wants Cleary back. Additionally I do think his playoff might sucker someone into ponying up 3 million a year for 3; though not necessarily Holland.

It's all GM speak. Of course you want guys back you think contributed to the team. I bet I could dig up a comment of Holland saying he wanted to bring back Hossa, too. If we could tell Cleary is on our last legs, then I have a hard time thinking Holland, as part of the head of one of the most professional organizations in all of sports, can't see what we're seeing. If he thinks Cleary is gonna get overpayed, then he'll let him walk like he should. I doubt anyone is gonna pay him over $2.5 million AAV. He's not worth that much anymore.
 

odin1981

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Until I hear the "kenny" way of saying your off the team (you know the will let you tryout in camp phrase ie to old and washed up). I fear that cleary comes back. Really hope he buys out sammy this year as well. Save a buyout for next year but we don't need sammy and can get nothing for him (ntc).
 

Frk It

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Since when did Corsi become more important than the eyeball test? God I hate advanced statistics. Quincey is a joke compared to Scuderi.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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His on ice Corsi is positive, and the only reason his relative corsi is in the negative is because even though the Kings control the puck more often when he's off the ice than on. But on ice corsi of +8 is nothing to sneeze at. Not to mention, 2.76 GAA/60 isn't bad either. He did have a negative quality of teammates. I don't know what you're talking about. I'd love to have Voynov on the team.

Of course you want Voynov that was the whole point. You cannot pick and choose which advance statistics you want to throw. Well I mean I guess you can, well within your rights of forming an opinion.

But still, how much of this is Quick/Bernier having a 897% with Scuderi on the ice?

By the way DeKeyser fans, Howard had an astonishing 987% with him on the ice.

Some of that is just poor puck luck or good luck in some cases.

I am not big on this stuff though so, this could be useful it could not be. All I know is every time I turn on the playoffs Scuderi is making a tangible contribution. He is by no means a pylon, he is a defense first guy that has never really been wildly overpaid.

Now he might not age well, but there is a reason plenty of NHL GMs are going to be interested if he does hit the market, which I really don't expect him to.

The Pens defense has never really been the same since he left. He makes an impact on the game and on his team.
 

JmanWingsFan

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Of course you want Voynov that was the whole point. You cannot pick and choose which advance statistics you want to throw. Well I mean I guess you can, well within your rights of forming an opinion.

Stop. Just stop. If you don't understand advanced statistics, don't even comment on them. This is just... Wow. Just don't comment on Corsi until you understand it.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Stop. Just stop. If you don't understand advanced statistics, don't even comment on them. This is just... Wow. Just don't comment on Corsi until you understand it.

If you don't understand the eye test fine..... I don't like corsi there is a difference between that and not understanding it. It has its time and place, but using it as a means to put down a guy that has had an incredibly successful career just doesn't really work for me. There are huge differences in understanding something and buying into it. I am by no means an expert on the subject but I am guessing neither are you. I have the same information available on how the data is collected, I know how it is collected.

Just like advanced statistics have their problems in baseball, they have problems in hockey. They are but a tool to make an assessment and using this and this alone to hunt a player like Scuderi doesn't scan with me sorry.
 

RedWingsNow*

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St James is a Wings slappy whose "analysis" of the Wings is about as deep as a puddle on a hot summer's day. I don't think it is possible for her to write anything approaching criticism regarding the Wings.

Remember when Abdelkader scored 5 goals (including a hat trick) in the span of like two weeks or whatever?
St. James and Khan -- apologists that they are -- both wrote "i told you so" articles, saying that Babcock was great and Pavel loved Abdelkader, etc. blah blah blah.

But the truly pathetic thing about these writers was that wrote this article about how Abdelkader and Babcock proved the doubters wrong -- when these spineless pukes never had the guts to write an article about the doubts in the first place:shakehead
 

JmanWingsFan

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If you don't understand the eye test fine..... I don't like corsi there is a difference between that and not understanding it. It has its time and place, but using it as a means to put down a guy that has had an incredibly successful career just doesn't really work for me. There are huge differences in understanding something and buying into it. I am by no means an expert on the subject but I am guessing neither are you. I have the same information available on how the data is collected, I know how it is collected.

Just like advanced statistics have their problems in baseball, they have problems in hockey. They are but a tool to make an assessment and using this and this alone to hunt a player like Scuderi doesn't scan with me sorry.

The eye test is about as subjective as they come. What you see and what I see can be two completely different things. You don't need a major in statistics to understand advanced statistics. Really, advanced is an inappropriate label. It's really just simple math. Suggesting that they have problems in Baseball is very... poor. They do not have a problem in baseball. They provide a whole large extra depth of analysis to the game. They aren't the be all end all, nor are they perfectly objective. They are certainly more objective than the eyeball test. On top of this, Corsi wasn't the only stat I used in my analysis. It was one of several. None of them struck me as saying one should want him.

If your only argument is "HE WON THE CUP," then let's go drag Sami Pahlsson out of the Swedish leagues while we're at it. He won the cup a 7 years back, not long before Scuderi won his first cup. He played a major role on it, too. Heck, let's trade for Hal Gill too. He's a cup winner. Why not sign Cleary to an extension? He's a cup winner also. He's got all that heart and played well in the playoffs.
 

JmanWingsFan

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Aug 18, 2011
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Remember when Abdelkader scored 5 goals (including a hat trick) in the span of like two weeks or whatever?
St. James and Khan -- apologists that they are -- both wrote "i told you so" articles, saying that Babcock was great and Pavel loved Abdelkader, etc. blah blah blah.

But the truly pathetic thing about these writers was that wrote this article about how Abdelkader and Babcock proved the doubters wrong -- when these spineless pukes never had the guts to write an article about the doubts in the first place:shakehead

Kahn? A spineless puke? :laugh: Datsyuk wants Abdelkader on his line, and he scores 10 goals in the regular season, including some important goals in the playoffs, which means it worked. Yet you know better. And if you call me out for hindsight, you're no-longer allowed to use it yourself and many things you've argued are instantaneously invalidated.
 

odin1981

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Mar 8, 2013
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If you don't understand the eye test fine..... I don't like corsi there is a difference between that and not understanding it. It has its time and place, but using it as a means to put down a guy that has had an incredibly successful career just doesn't really work for me. There are huge differences in understanding something and buying into it. I am by no means an expert on the subject but I am guessing neither are you. I have the same information available on how the data is collected, I know how it is collected.

Just like advanced statistics have their problems in baseball, they have problems in hockey. They are but a tool to make an assessment and using this and this alone to hunt a player like Scuderi doesn't scan with me sorry.

Don't waste your time trying to explain it man really. He is a stat freak (jman) that cannot understand the contributions scuderi brings. There also is next to no chance he makes it to fa but if he did I would really want the wings to push for him.

I would love to have him due to my thinking that we are 1 def-d short in our lineup. And it would free up smith to actually having confidence in his partner. Which was pretty obvious he didn't have this year.

It would also mean that we could have a pure def-d on each pk line. And scud is a great veteran pickup to help teach smith/dekeyser/kindl the in's and outs of positioning. But with who is trying to argue it you might as well be talking to a wall.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Don't waste your time trying to explain it man really. He is a stat freak (jman) that cannot understand the contributions scuderi brings. There also is next to no chance he makes it to fa but if he did I would really want the wings to push for him.

I would love to have him due to my thinking that we are 1 def-d short in our lineup. And it would free up smith to actually having confidence in his partner. Which was pretty obvious he didn't have this year.

It would also mean that we could have a pure def-d on each pk line. And scud is a great veteran pickup to help teach smith/dekeyser/kindl the in's and outs of positioning. But with who is trying to argue it you might as well be talking to a wall.

I like Jman and I understand it isn't easy to poor over the stats, he and Henkka do a lot of that for us and some of the time it is fascinating. Just not going to use it to this degree on Scuderi, who I think brings a lot to the table. Also as you have pointed out at various times Scuderi has proved to be a great defensive presence and babysitter for young D-man.
 

SportsballChic

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"Advanced statistics/metrics? What's that, like how many rolls of tape it takes to keep Tuzz and Carlo on the ice? Wait, are those rolls a cap charge? I NEED TO KNOW!"

:)
 
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