Blue Jays Discussion: free agency #2: Jays sign Cuban Gurriel Jr 7yr\22 mill, & Kendry Morales 3yr\33 mill)

[doorman]

Eww this sounds eerily similar to the argument for why NCAA football and basketball players should not getting paid because "they're getting educated for free, and don't pay for travel, accommodations, food, medical, etc."

Let me guess: hockey salaries don't annoy you as much...its those NBA\NFL\MLB contracts that are sticking in your craw ?

Nope, they are all extremely well paid. I am not saying they should not earn a living for what they do, I am asking when enough is enough? As for the where would the owners be without the players statement, you can ask the same, for the players. As for the NCAA question, nope the universities make tons off the players and they players should get more then the free education they do.What exactly that should be is a little tricker, but that's a whole different ball game.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

- highest HR/FB % of any top thirty starter in baseball
- third lowest LOB% of any top thirty starter in baseball
- ERA (4.37) materially higher than FIP (3.71), xFIP (3.41), and SIERA (3.62)
- highest ground ball rate of any top thirty starter in baseball

Yeah...there's no positive regression to be had there. Definitely seen his ceiling at ~3.6 fWAR

 

[Bad News Benning]

Why are you people so intent on the fact I would pay a kings ransom for Eaton? I never once said I would overpay for him or even trade for him. I just said he fills a hole on this team which Jay does not. His WAR spiked because he moved to RF. Even as a 3 WAR player he would fill a huge need on this team. Refer to my other posts regarding why Jay's diminishing assets and his redundant value on this roster

Jay is redundant? because we don't need a left handed hitting OF with a career .352 OBP%? I'll take that kind of production on a short term deal. We could do far worse for a lead off hitter.

I'm sure jays management dream about acquiring players for canadian tire money until they wake up and reality sets in. That Donaldson trade was a one in a million type deal and I get the impression that some fans think it's easy to go to the player store and pick out whatever you want.

 

[Walshy7]

Nope, they are all extremely well paid. I am not saying they should not earn a living for what they do, I am asking when enough is enough? As for the where would the owners be without the players statement, you can ask the same, for the players. As for the NCAA question, nope the universities make tons off the players and they players should get more then the free education they do.What exactly that should be is a little tricker, but that's a whole different ball game.

You can but if they broke away right now and the players funded their own league, after start up money now they get 100% of revenue. What are you going to watch players playing the sport (in this case baseball) or owners owning stuff? I can never understand people who side with owners these are billionaire business men **** them, don't own a team if don't like it. 50/50 is as fair as it gets. If that owner leaves in jumps another one. ooh I hope that billionaires bottom dollar is ok

 

[Mach85]

Why are you people so intent on the fact I would pay a kings ransom for Eaton? I never once said I would overpay for him or even trade for him. I just said he fills a hole on this team which Jay does not. His WAR spiked because he moved to RF. Even as a 3 WAR player he would fill a huge need on this team. Refer to my other posts regarding why Jay's diminishing assets and his redundant value on this roster

What do you mean by you people

 

[hizzoner]

Capitalism, man. In socialist Cuba, players play for peanuts (not literally...I don't think)...but in most other places in the world, high profile athletes get paid more than surgeons. That's just the way it is.


In any case, I mentioned Jon Jay as a Shatkins type of signing a couple of months ago. I think Matt Holliday is their type of signing too (if he's ok with coming here). Both low risk, medium reward, and add a bit of versatility to the club. While not rumoured to do so, I think we'll end up with one of these guys.

By the same token, I very much doubt we'd end up with Eaton. We'd have to give up the farm, and that's not Shatkins mo.

What a world where the minstrels and the jesters are considered more important than government leaders, peacekeepers and healers.

 

[Woodman19]

You can but if they broke away right now and the players funded their own league, after start up money now they get 100% of revenue. What are you going to watch players playing the sport (in this case baseball) or owners owning stuff? I can never understand people who side with owners these are billionaire business men **** them, don't own a team if don't like it. 50/50 is as fair as it gets. If that owner leaves in jumps another one. ooh I hope that billionaires bottom dollar is ok

Owners are in the business of making money and if the players owned it 100%, suddenly they too would be operating the league to maximize the profits.

 

[doorman]

You can but if they broke away right now and the players funded their own league, after start up money now they get 100% of revenue. What are you going to watch players playing the sport (in this case baseball) or owners owning stuff? I can never understand people who side with owners these are billionaire business men **** them, don't own a team if don't like it. 50/50 is as fair as it gets. If that owner leaves in jumps another one. ooh I hope that billionaires bottom dollar is ok

Player will never break away and and foot the bill, there are too many hidden costs and problems, like where would they all play? Who puts up all that money, if it was possible they would've done it already, IMO. I simply asked when is enough, enough? I guess I am wrong think Edwin shouldn't just be happy making 20 million a season, he should definitely make 25-30 so he can live more comfortably, my bad.

 

[Eyedea]

I'm throwing a claim in on Juan Graterol if I'm Shatkins. There's the backup C, or at least 3rd C if AJJ beats him.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I'm throwing a claim in on Juan Graterol if I'm Shatkins. There's the backup C, or at least 3rd C if AJJ beats him.

Otherwise known as Gary Sanchez's long lost twin....who's also several year older.

 

[tp71]

I understand full well he was comparing the cost. My point was it's not relevant as they don't provide comparable value. One guy fills a huge need for this team the other doesn't. It shouldnt matter what Jay cost's if his value is redundant on this roster.
Now, if he was talking about a free agent/trade that would actually be a starter on this team, it would be different. But you can't say dont trade for Adam Eaton when we could just sign Jon Jay.

It's like if we had a whole at SS saying we should just place Ryan Goins there instead of trading assets for Brandon Crawford.

Im not saying go out and trade the farm for Eaton. But Eaton would fill a huge whole on this team. If we aren't getting him suggest a player who would do the same, where the cost may be more appropriate. Jon Jay is not that player

You sure can say don't trade for Adam Eaton when the Jays could sign Jay.

If the cost for Eaton is someone like Stroman, then you might pause and say that's not worth it. Jay + Stroman may have more value for the Jays than giving up Stroman to have Eaton.

What are you giving up to get that piece you want vs what are you keeping + plus getting on the FA market. That should be compared. What is the cost/benefit of what you are doing.

I think you're overlooking what the cost of acquiring these players are.

Your Goins/Crawford example is the same thing, Crawford is an upgrade on Goins, sure. But what are you giving up to get Crawford? And is that upgrade actually worth it to the team and can you fill the holes you create by making that deal.

 

[Walshy7]

Owners are in the business of making money and if the players owned it 100%, suddenly they too would be operating the league to maximize the profits.

Player will never break away and and foot the bill, there are too many hidden costs and problems, like where would they all play? Who puts up all that money, if it was possible they would've done it already, IMO. I simply asked when is enough, enough? I guess I am wrong think Edwin shouldn't just be happy making 20 million a season, he should definitely make 25-30 so he can live more comfortably, my bad.

i obviously know it would never happen, i was making a point of who do you watch players or owners and why do you care how much money the owner makes. I watch the bluejays not rogers (well i guess technically i do haha) im not thinking i hope rogers is making money out of this. this is directed at posters who are complaining players are paid too much

 

[Garlando]

I'd like to make a tout on an under the radar guy I think could be a good buy for the Jays to potentially fill a corner OF spot on the cheap. Mitch Haniger of the Arizona Diamondbacks recorded a line of .321/.419/.521 between Double- and Triple-A with 64 extra-base hits. Good for a 156 wRC+ in AA and an 185 wRC+ in AAA. He did this after making a swing change last offseason, implementing a leg kick a la Josh Donaldson in an attempt to tap more into his power and improve consistency in timing. The swing change is profiled in this article: http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...t-mitch-haniger-hit-his-way-up-here/88884002/

As you can see, the change worked and he achieved the most success he's had in his career. He even got a taste of the majors late in the year for 34 games. While he only hit .229 in those games, he produced a 93.6 mph average exit velocity (89 mph is average) and hit 5 HRs while managing a pretty good 9.8 BB% and a 22 K%. His minor league numbers suggest he can improve the BB% and K% with more time and his .256 BAPIP is sure to as well. Good news is he wasn't overmatched at all.

Tools wise, Fangraphs author Eric Longenhagen just game him a 60-grade raw power which he started tapping into more thanks to the swing change. He also was given a 60-grade on his speed and he showed that stealing 12 bases last season and playing a capable CF in the majors. Defensively, he showed really well in CF for ARI in 22 games, but he is more suited to a corner OF spot and his plus arm strength lends well to RF.

He has a lot going for him, but the risk is that his track record is short as he's only had one year utilizing this new swing. He will also be 26 on Opening Day. He does have some pedigree though as a supplemental 1st rounder in 2012. There's a chance he is a late bloomer and the cost to find out is probably minimal and worth it. Arizona has a ton of OFs with A. J. Pollack, David Peralta, and Yasmany Thomas in starting gigs and guys like Socrates Brito, Jordan Guerrero, and Chris Owings capable of playing too so they would likely be willing to move Haniger.

 

[TF97]

I'd like to make a tout on an under the radar guy I think could be a good buy for the Jays to potentially fill a corner OF spot on the cheap. Mitch Haniger of the Arizona Diamondbacks recorded a line of .321/.419/.521 between Double- and Triple-A with 64 extra-base hits. Good for a 156 wRC+ in AA and an 185 wRC+ in AAA. He did this after making a swing change last offseason, implementing a leg kick a la Josh Donaldson in an attempt to tap more into his power and improve consistency in timing. The swing change is profiled in this article: http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...t-mitch-haniger-hit-his-way-up-here/88884002/

As you can see, the change worked and he achieved the most success he's had in his career. He even got a taste of the majors late in the year for 34 games. While he only hit .229 in those games, he produced a 93.6 mph average exit velocity (89 mph is average) and hit 5 HRs while managing a pretty good 9.8 BB% and a 22 K%. His minor league numbers suggest he can improve the BB% and K% with more time and his .256 BAPIP is sure to as well. Good news is he wasn't overmatched at all.

Tools wise, Fangraphs author Eric Longenhagen just game him a 60-grade raw power which he started tapping into more thanks to the swing change. He also was given a 60-grade on his speed and he showed that stealing 12 bases last season and playing a capable CF in the majors. Defensively, he showed really well in CF for ARI in 22 games, but he is more suited to a corner OF spot and his plus arm strength lends well to RF.

He has a lot going for him, but the risk is that his track record is short as he's only had one year utilizing this new swing. He will also be 26 on Opening Day. He does have some pedigree though as a supplemental 1st rounder in 2012. There's a chance he is a late bloomer and the cost to find out is probably minimal and worth it. Arizona has a ton of OFs with A. J. Pollack, David Peralta, and Yasmany Thomas in starting gigs and guys like Socrates Brito, Jordan Guerrero, and Chris Owings capable of playing too so they would likely be willing to move Haniger.

I like the way you think. I was just looking at him the other day. I believe acquiring someone like Haniger would be the right move when it comes to filling one of those outfield spots.

 

[zeke]

Every roster is aging, but certain teams are built around a core that is either young or clearly within their prime (ie: the Cubs). Why are you looking at age as some sort of numerical value? Martin and Tulowitzki are clearly shells of their former selves, regardless if they are "32.333" or "34". Your premise isn't even accurate: Martin is 3 months from 34, Happ is 34, Estrada is over 33. Martin could barely run to first base and at the plate looked like he was closing his eyes and guessing by the end of the season...he's old.

All of them were good players last year, and project to be good players next year.

Stroman was worth 3.6 wins last year (since you seem to love WAR so much), so I'm not sure how much "positive regression" you expect there. What is he going to positively regress to? 5 WAR?

exactly - I expect his ra9war to regress towards his impressive fwar.

I'm talking about offense. Tulo and Martin were 102 and 99 wRC+ hitters last season.

which is very good for good defensive C and SS.

Cecil is our second best reliever, regardless of what your one-year WAR analysis wants to dictate. "Barely over replacement" with his 11.05 K/9 and 1.96 BB/9 LOL. His WAR looks like crap because his HR rate of last season is obviously not real.

Cecil was at best the 5th best reliever on our ALCS team last year.

 

[AlienWorkShop]

Player will never break away and and foot the bill, there are too many hidden costs and problems, like where would they all play? Who puts up all that money, if it was possible they would've done it already, IMO. I simply asked when is enough, enough? I guess I am wrong think Edwin shouldn't just be happy making 20 million a season, he should definitely make 25-30 so he can live more comfortably, my bad.

Ok, if Edwin makes 20 instead of 25, where does that $5M go?

In an ideal, consumer/fan-centric world, it would translate to lower ticket prices, lower cable prices, etc. But that swings back to what the fans want and what they're willing to pay. Is Edwin earning that extra $5M because he's a greedy *******? Or is fans' (and advertisers') willingness to pay to watch baseball grown by 62% (see the latest MLB TV deal...) and Edwin simply has the bargaining power to demand 40% of that increase (5/.4=12.5, 20+12.5=32.5...)?

Yes, there's a 'skill' that owners have in terms of organizing the capital and labour behind sports teams, but that skill is replaceable. There's a lot more business and marketing types in the world than their are elite athletes. Has baseball (or the NFL) been struggling to find owners when needed? You say the owner owns the stadium? Well the players are offering the product people pay money for that funds stadiums, so either an alternative stadium (or even city) will pop up, or the original stadium owner will realize they suddenly have a infrastructure behemoth on their hands that's suddenly lost its main revenue stream.

So, through collective bargaining that ultimately takes into account all of the above, the top sports leagues seem to have settled at the players getting 40-50% of revenue.

 

[BAM]

Player will never break away and and foot the bill, there are too many hidden costs and problems, like where would they all play? Who puts up all that money, if it was possible they would've done it already, IMO. I simply asked when is enough, enough? I guess I am wrong think Edwin shouldn't just be happy making 20 million a season, he should definitely make 25-30 so he can live more comfortably, my bad.

If you know what you're worth or feel strongly about your worth, why would you settle for less? It's easy to judge these players and call them "greedy" but the reality is pretty much all of us would gravitate towards the job with the most money when looking for employment.

 

[doorman]

If you know what you're worth or feel strongly about your worth, why would you settle for less? It's easy to judge these players and call them "greedy" but the reality is pretty much all of us would gravitate towards the job with the most money when looking for employment.

For the most part this is a very accurate statement. I work in a family business and can say I have stayed when I could make more elsewhere. That being said there is a difference between someone making $75k and leaving to make $85-90k, then deciding $80 million just isn't enough, I understand what you're saying though. I get it's a rare skill set, I get it's entertaining etc, I simply asked when enough was enough, based on a MLB players are under paid comment by a different poster.

 

[Walshy7]

For the most part this is a very accurate statement. I work in a family business and can say I have stayed when I could make more elsewhere. That being said there is a difference between someone making $75k and leaving to make $85-90k, then deciding $80 million just isn't enough, I understand what you're saying though. I get it's a rare skill set, I get it's entertaining etc, I simply asked when enough was enough, based on a MLB players are under paid comment by a different poster.

the savings aren't passed on to you though, so why do you care if a millionaire player or billionaire owner takes the money. the extra $5M per season doesn't get invested into the fans, especially teams with 1 rich guy as owner he keeps it as profit

also your situation is quite different. It is a family business where you are comfortable, if it was me in your job at your company with no family ties i would probably leave for more money to help my family, where as you are likely to be left the entire business in a will or whatever so there is incentive for you to stay. Also arguing over $80M wanting more he will retire while you have another 30 working years left, so once you divide his lets say 120M in earnings by 50 working years. That is 2.4M per year it really isnt that much compared with other high powered jobs

 

[doorman]

the savings aren't passed on to you though, so why do you care if a millionaire player or billionaire owner takes the money. the extra $5M per season doesn't get invested into the fans, especially teams with 1 rich guy as owner he keeps it as profit

also your situation is quite different. It is a family business where you are comfortable, if it was me in your job at your company with no family ties i would probably leave for more money to help my family, where as you are likely to be left the entire business in a will or whatever so there is incentive for you to stay. Also arguing over $80M wanting more he will retire while you have another 30 working years left, so once you divide his lets say 120M in earnings by 50 working years. That is 2.4M per year it really isnt that much compared with other high powered jobs

See, you had me right up until you ASSUMED, it is just given to me as being family owned and that I do not or wouldn't have to work for what I have, that's not cool or fair.

As for savings passed on, no not directly, but every time the cost of something increases it effects the cost of something else. And again this simply stated by me asking how MLB players are under paid as one poster said.

 

[Discoverer]

And again this simply stated by me asking how MLB players are under paid as one poster said.

No one's suggesting they're underpaid compared to the average person. They're underpaid compared to professional athletes in the other three major NA sports. There's an enormous difference.

 

[doorman]

No one's suggesting they're underpaid compared to the average person. They're underpaid compared to professional athletes in the other three major NA sports. There's an enormous difference.

I can't now remember who said it before this got way deeper then I thought it would, but there was a poster (Zeke, I believe) who stated if anything they should be paid more. And next to the NBA yes, but they are higher averaged then the NHL & NFL. The one thing I will give baseball players is they play more games then other sports. Anyway I am giving up now, on to talk of actual players.

 

[Patmac40]

I can't now remember who said it before this got way deeper then I thought it would, but there was a poster (Zeke, I believe) who stated if anything they should be paid more. And next to the NBA yes, but they are higher averaged then the NHL & NFL. The one thing I will give baseball players is they play more games then other sports. Anyway I am giving up now, on to talk of actual players.

Based on the share of revenue allocated to the players as per the CBA in each sport. It is about 10% lower than what the other big 4 get. That's the perspective people are coming from and not actual dollars. This has been explained.

 

[Discoverer]

but they are higher averaged then the NHL & NFL.

Not as a percentage of revenue, which has been the entire discussion.

 

[TOGuy14]

You can but if they broke away right now and the players funded their own league, after start up money now they get 100% of revenue. What are you going to watch players playing the sport (in this case baseball) or owners owning stuff? I can never understand people who side with owners these are billionaire business men **** them, don't own a team if don't like it. 50/50 is as fair as it gets. If that owner leaves in jumps another one. ooh I hope that billionaires bottom dollar is ok

The logistics of this would be so bad.

So the players would hire their own GMs in this league? Or they just dictate how much they want on their new contracts? If this was reality Joey Bats would have given himself an 8 year 200M contract last spring...