Confirmed with Link: Francis out as GM - Don Waddell named GM 5/8/18

[NotOpie]

Francis may have also been an advocate, but it's pretty clear based on JR's statement that it was Kron and MacDonald that drove that pick.

Guilty as charged....even though I'm a one-time English major my superior reading skills don't always come into play.

The point still stands. Those were the guys that I specifically heard were "Ronnie's guys" and, despite not being able to find the exact reference, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the HF echo chamber. I used to spend a lot of time researching prospects pre-draft (alas work has taken some of that time from me) and I'm pretty certain it was somewhere during that research that I heard that Francis was high on Lindholm. He might have gotten his info from Kron and MacDonald, but even back prior to being the GM, Ronnie traveled a great deal to view prospects, apparently giving his valued "2 cents" to JR. My guess is he made a trip or two to Sweden. But now I'm more in the realm of speculation.

 

[NotOpie]

On a different but related note, somebody's missing from the Executive Management Team page.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

On a different but related note, somebody's missing from the Executive Management Team page.

That's because he's not in executive management any longer. He's listed under "Hockey Operations", along with all the AGMs, and other staff.

Staff Directory

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The point still stands. Those were the guys that I specifically heard were "Ronnie's guys" and, despite not being able to find the exact reference, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the HF echo chamber. I used to spend a lot of time researching prospects pre-draft (alas work has taken some of that time from me) and I'm pretty certain it was somewhere during that research that I heard that Francis was high on Lindholm. He might have gotten his info from Kron and MacDonald, but even back prior to being the GM, Ronnie traveled a great deal to view prospects, apparently giving his valued "2 cents" to JR. My guess is he made a trip or two to Sweden. But now I'm more in the realm of speculation.

Actually, your point really doesn't still stand.

 

[NotOpie]

Actually, your point really doesn't still stand.

You're right....it was the point that everybody else but pedantic literalists understood.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You're right....it was the point that everybody else but pedantic literalists understood.

Has nothing to do with that.

"My point still stands. I can't find anything to validate my point, and I acknowledge that there's information out there that invalidates it, but My Point Still Stands!!!"

 

[NotOpie]

Has nothing to do with that.

"My point still stands. I can't find anything to validate my point, and I acknowledge that there's information out there that invalidates it, but My Point Still Stands!!!"

Fully admitting that I misinterpreted the exact nature of the original statement, my point was that it was my understanding that the guys I mentioned were guys that Ronnie was high on (my terminology = Ronnie's guys). While I could not find the exact quotes and also agreeing that Kron and MacDonald were key influencers, your statements and research don't invalidate Ron's influence in the decision, unless you're of the mind that Ron Francis had little to no influence on the selection....which indeed may have been true, but not what my recollection indicates.

Additionally, in the context of the time of that draft, there was a general view that the Canes scouting organization was in some way lacking (Boychuk, Dalpe, Bowman, et al). It is neither illogical nor that big of a leap to assume that JR might have wanted to pump his scout's tires....and again, that's an admitted supposition on my part. Regardless, it doesn't matter. I cannot find the quote(s) that I read 5 years ago, but still stand by my view that Ron Francis had significant influence on the Elias Lindholm selection.

And now I feel a little dirty even holding that view....

 

[bleedgreen]

The Flyers had Lindy rated number two in the draft. I don’t know why Francis pushing that way would be painting him in a poor light, even if there was some actual proof Francis did push. Lindy was an appropriate pick, most people had him going around there.

If there was a mistake with Lindy it was JR keeping him around at 18 when he had no business playing in the nhl.

 

[sheriff bart]

If there was a mistake with Lindy it was JR keeping him around at 18 when he had no business playing in the nhl.

Before that draft, JR specifically stated that the Canes were going to take a player that was going to help immediately and would play. You just can't draft with that mentality. The instances where that happens is few and far between, except for the elite of the elite.

 

[AD Skinner]

Just for funsies I looked at who was still on the board between when they picked Paradis and their next selection... Notables include:

Ryan O'Reilly
Alex Chiasson
Jakub Silvferberg
Robin Lehner

 

[Chrispy]

Before that draft, JR specifically stated that the Canes were going to take a player that was going to help immediately and would play. You just can't draft with that mentality. The instances where that happens is few and far between, except for the elite of the elite.

The confusing part for me is he made that statement, then took the higher ceiling player who was less ready over the lower ceiling, higher floor, more "ready now" center in Monahan.

I think that statement was one reason many were confident Monahan would be the pick.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Regardless, it doesn't matter. I cannot find the quote(s) that I read 5 years ago, but still stand by my view that Ron Francis had significant influence on the Elias Lindholm selection.

And now I feel a little dirty even holding that view....

I admire you sticking to your guys NotOpie, even in the face of direct evidence against it.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Just for funsies I looked at who was still on the board between when they picked Paradis and their next selection... Notables include:

Ryan O'Reilly
Alex Chiasson
Jakub Silvferberg
Robin Lehner

I looked at that also. IIRC, none of those guys were ones that people and experts thought the should/would target. IIRC, it was all about Ashton, Ferraro, and maybe Budish? I didn't follow it as well back then, maybe DaveG or someone like that remembers better.

 

[AD Skinner]

Yeah it speaks to the crap shoot that drafting can be. Got to be frustrating that a guy like O'reilly became exactly what you would hope Paradis would have

 

[MinJaBen]

An interesting thoughts/notebook article on the Athletic about the GM search. No specific blurb to sum it up, but it was interesting in that it was not a bash piece, but more of a "what would a potential GM be thinking" piece.

Duhatschek Notebook - theAthletic ($$$)

 

[DaveG]

I looked at that also. IIRC, none of those guys were ones that people and experts thought the should/would target. IIRC, it was all about Ashton, Ferraro, and maybe Budish? I didn't follow it as well back then, maybe DaveG or someone like that remembers better.

Budish was a guy that a lot of people (including myself) were all over taking a chance on since he was a top 10-15 talent in the draft but was coming off a potential bad injury. Proved to be enough to stop his NHL prospects in their tracks unfortunately though he's been fairly productive in Liiga play.

O'Reilly I liked a lot as I thought his low end was still a good 2-way NHLer, just didn't see his upside as high as it turned out to be but even then I thought any time you can pluck a surefire #3C at the end of the first it's a good day.

Silfverberg was getting some hype but Klingberg was the more hyped prospect at the time, was seen as a safer bet.

Ferraro was seen by many (including myself) as a good player on a shit team, and Red Deer was REALLY damn bad at the time.

I was a huge fan of Chiasson at the time but I was fairly alone in that one IIRC. Ashton had more followers but I wasn't quite as high on him, though I would have been OK with it had he been the pick at the time.

Panik and Tatar were getting a good bit of hype after their WJC performances, but that was more with the Dumo pick rather then our first rounder.

 

[StormCast]

On a different but related note, somebody's missing from the Executive Management Team page.

Had to laugh when I saw the name Dennis Moore, the CFO. Now those Monty Python Dennis Moore songs are stuck in my head. Thanks for that.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

The Flyers had Lindy rated number two in the draft. I don’t know why Francis pushing that way would be painting him in a poor light, even if there was some actual proof Francis did push. Lindy was an appropriate pick, most people had him going around there.

If there was a mistake with Lindy it was JR keeping him around at 18 when he had no business playing in the nhl.

You can see why Lindholm was drafted in the top 5 today. He has great hands, a dangerous release, and he at least isn't the least afraid of engaging physically. He was seriously compared to Peter Forsberg!

All tools, no toolbox guy. He'll have a 70 point year fluke season at some point, I hope it's with us.

 

[Lempo]

Had to laugh when I saw the name Dennis Moore, the CFO. Now those Monty Python Dennis Moore songs are stuck in my head. Thanks for that.

Overseer of financial resources sounds about right.

 

[The Faulker 27]

You can see why Lindholm was drafted in the top 5 today. He has great hands, a dangerous release, and he at least isn't the least afraid of engaging physically. He was seriously compared to Peter Forsberg!

All tools, no toolbox guy. He'll have a 70 point year fluke season at some point, I hope it's with us.

The glass half empty perspective I know, but it's dissapointing to see just how many tools he has for a guy with average point production. You add points to the skill tree in shooting, and maybe IQ and you have a 60-70 point per season player.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

All tools, no toolbox guy. He'll have a 70 point year fluke season at some point, I hope it's with us.

I don't see it that way. Maybe all the tools, but they are cheap Chinese knock-offs. He's an ok skater, but not great. He's not slow, but he doesn't have great speed. He's got decent hands, but not great. He's got ok vision, but not great. He's physical, but not overly. He's got a decent shot, but not great. etc... etc....

He's average to good at most things, but not good to great at anything. To me, it's not about the toolbox and more about the tools are just so-so. He shows flashes, but not consistently. I do think he's got the ability to put up more than he has here though.

 

[Lempo]

So he got green Bosch tools. Not the blue pro ones, but they still should be okay enough, and yet you have this nagging feeling that there's something to those urban legends that you can see exactly the same casting defects in the plastic parts of very similar-looking cheap store label tools that everyone know to be crap.

 

[NotOpie]

I don't see it that way. Maybe all the tools, but they are cheap Chinese knock-offs. He's an ok skater, but not great. He's not slow, but he doesn't have great speed. He's got decent hands, but not great. He's got ok vision, but not great. He's physical, but not overly. He's got a decent shot, but not great. etc... etc....

He's average to good at most things, but not good to great at anything. To me, it's not about the toolbox and more about the tools are just so-so. He shows flashes, but not consistently. I do think he's got the ability to put up more than he has here though.

What's so frustrating about Lindy is that he does have the potential. You see it from time to time, where he does demonstrate elite vision, superb passing skills, and a dynamic wrist shot. But for the most part, he just doesn't do it with any consistency. Some of that may be from lack of early development. Some of it might come from inadequate coaching. Or some of it might come from just not being as good as we thought. I tend to think a lot of it lies with the former two reasons, not the latter. It is also why, of all the guys who have reached their peak years, he's the one who I believe might just have another gear. I certainly hope so.

 

[AD Skinner]

I think lindholm still doesn't have the confidence that yes he can impose his will at this level. That's why you see those hot streaks where he looks dominant and then cools off... he defaults back to that 19 year old who got rag dolled his first year over here. That's my armchair psychologist explanation anyway

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

I remember Lindholm being described as a potential Backstrom.

Was actually really excited about that pick at the time.