Confirmed with Link: Francis out as GM - Don Waddell named GM 5/8/18

[geehaad]

Does anyone remember any reports of guys we drafted or acquired who were direct picks by Francis himself and not recommended by his scouts?

The only two I can think of off the top of my head are Noah Babin And Jeremy Welsh. Those are two instances where reports said these are guys he really liked and wanted us to pursue.

And neither were draft picks. Not contradicting your point, just making that clear.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It was after the pick, when two announcers were discussing the pick, not sure of names, but it wasn't the Pierre...I'd remember him, and they clearly said RF liked him, no mention of JR by them. What Pierre said, I don't know...I never listen to him.

Hmmm, I don't recall that at all about Francis, but I didn't follow that draft very closely either. I do very clearly recall Rutherford's focus on size and there were many statements from JR about going for size before the draft.

Canes take Phillippe Paradis in first round :: WRALSportsFan.com

The Carolina Hurricanes went into the 2009 draft looking to add size to their organization. With the selection of Philippe Paradis from Shawinigan of the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League the Canes have done just that.

The addition of Paradis should not impact the roster for the Canes 09-10 season, but it does hold true to General Manager Jim Rutherford’s plan to get bigger through the draft.

NHL Draft: Carolina Hurricanes Select Philippe Paradis With 27th Overall Pick

Paradis does have the size GM Jim Rutherford said he craved in this draft....

“He plays with an edge,” Rutherford said in a press release. “He can play physical. He’s a good skater. This is the type of player we hoped would be available to us, so we’re pretty pleased with the pick.”

www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/11342/hurricanes2009_draft_review/#srJF0m7520sX7uee.99

General manager Jim Rutherford said the team’s focus at this year’s entry draft would be to infuse more size into the prospect pool. Mission accomplished.

 

[NotOpie]

Does anyone remember any reports of guys we drafted or acquired who were direct picks by Francis himself and not recommended by his scouts?

The only two I can think of off the top of my head are Noah Babin And Jeremy Welsh. Those are two instances where reports said these are guys he really liked and wanted us to pursue.

I thought Welsh was JR's boy.

The other two that I seem to recall were Riley Nash, who Francis scouted in person, and Elias Lindholm. Lindy, I believe was Francis's preference because he thought he had "longer term potential". Everybody felt that Monahan was "ready now".

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I thought Welsh was JR's boy.

The other two that I seem to recall were Riley Nash, who Francis scouted in person, and Elias Lindholm. Lindy, I believe was Francis's preference because he thought he had "longer term potential". Everybody felt that Monahan was "ready now".

By "everybody", do you mean HF fans? Because I recall that JR was trying his hardest to trade up so he could draft Seth Jones all the way up until it was the Canes turn to draft and when that fell through, he turned to someone saying "I guess you get your guy." (or something like that). I thought it was MacDonald he turned to, but I only have vague recollection so am not sure about it and could never find the video again, but others remember it being Francis and that could be right. The Canes really wanted Jones more than anything that draft as they wanted to improve the defense.

I don't ever recall hearing that people in the Canes org. wanted Monahan right now but Francis thought Lindholm had more long term potential. In fact, in an interview right after the draft, JR said he though Lindholm could play in the NHL because he had already played with "men" in Sweden.

EDIT: He goes on to say Robert Kron and Tony MacDonald played the biggest role in the selection of Lindholm.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2...12.1705920333.1521477129-749447209.1516743781

 

[Cane mutiny]

Hmmm, I don't recall that at all about Francis, but I didn't follow that draft very closely either. I do very clearly recall Rutherford's focus on size and there were many statements from JR about going for size before the draft.

Canes take Phillippe Paradis in first round :: WRALSportsFan.com



NHL Draft: Carolina Hurricanes Select Philippe Paradis With 27th Overall Pick



www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/11342/hurricanes2009_draft_review/#srJF0m7520sX7uee.99

I realize all that you said about JR wanting size is true, as all your clips show, and JR must have liked him too for that reason or he would not just go along with a pick from left field. I've tried to find video, but it was just a small inconsequential segment of two announcers talking about picks between the draft breaks. Not saying RF went off half cocked and drafted any player on his own, just that he does seem to use his gut at times with surprise picks. Not putting him down, Aho was one that worked out great. We'll have to wait and see about Luostarinen from last draft, but I think he stand a chance of being decent.

 

[DaveG]

Aho (and Kuokkanen for that matter) was a guy that Joni found for us.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I realize all that you said about JR wanting size is true, as all your clips show, and JR must have liked him too for that reason or he would not just go along with a pick from left field. I've tried to find video, but it was just a small inconsequential segment of two announcers talking about picks between the draft breaks. Not saying RF went off half cocked and drafted any player on his own, just that he does seem to use his gut at times with surprise picks. Not putting him down, Aho was one that worked out great. We'll have to wait and see about Luostarinen from last draft, but I think he stand a chance of being decent.

I don't buy it. Francis wasn't the GM back then and if you read some of those articles, JR says "our guys" really liked him then went on to say Paradis meets what JR was after. I'm not saying that Francis wasn't one of the "our guys" who liked him, but don't paint this as Francis is the reason we drafted him as there's nothing to indicate that was the case. Same thing about Lindholm. People on this board have been incorrectly saying it was a Francis pick, but that audio clip I just shared where JR says Robert Kron and Tony MacDonald played the biggest role.

Francis was the GM starting with the 14 draft. The buck stops at the GM when it comes to the draft because he has the final say and he is the one putting the scouting staff in place, etc.. I see very few picks where "he went with his gut" since he has been GM. If people want to say his draft record is suspect (Fleury and Bean particularly), that's fine, but they were both picked right about where they were projected. Even Aho was.

 

[Cane mutiny]

Aho (and Kuokkanen for that matter) was a guy that Joni found for us.

Yes, I know, but Joni didn't draft them, only gave info to RF as a good scout should. RF was the one who decided to take a chance on them. Glad he did, too.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Yes, I know, but Joni didn't draft them, only gave info to RF as a good scout should. RF was the one who decided to take a chance on them. Glad he did, too.

The Leafs came right out and said they almost drafted Aho (was between him and Dermott) and NJ was pissed when we took him and traded back right after we took Aho. I don't think it was a "chance" per se, I think he went about where he should have.

Still an excellent choice, but not going way off the board or anything like that. A number of teams were very interested in him.

EDIT: Pronman had Aho at #28 and central scouting international had him in the top 15 of international players.

 

[Cane mutiny]

I don't buy it. Francis wasn't the GM back then and if you read some of those articles, JR says "our guys" really liked him then went on to say Paradis meets what JR was after. I'm not saying that Francis wasn't one of the "our guys" who liked him, but don't paint this as Francis is the reason we drafted him as there's nothing to indicate that was the case. Same thing about Lindholm. People on this board have been incorrectly saying it was a Francis pick, but that audio clip I just shared where JR says Robert Kron and Tony MacDonald played the biggest role.

Francis was the GM starting with the 14 draft. The buck stops at the GM when it comes to the draft because he has the final say and he is the one putting the scouting staff in place, etc.. I see very few picks where "he went with his gut" since he has been GM. If people want to say his draft record is suspect (Fleury and Bean particularly), that's fine, but they were both picked right about where they were projected. Even Aho was.

I know you guy all love the RF, and don't want to upset anyone. I only passed along what I heard two guys say on a show I saw in answer to a question posed here. They may have been wrong for all I know. Not saying RF isn't qualified to draft ppl, or he's a terrible GM. I brought drafting up only because TD used it as an example to describe what he meant about everyone having their input listened to. He also said RF doesn't need to be in Finland scouting players, when we have scouts to do that. Which is why I said he may have wanted to restrict the scope of the GM's job. I'm not calling out RF...I like Ron, too.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I know you guy all love the RF, and don't want to upset anyone. I only passed along what I heard two guys say on a show I saw in answer to a question posed here. They may have been wrong for all I know. Not saying RF isn't qualified to draft ppl, or he's a terrible GM. I brought drafting up only because TD used it as an example to describe what he meant about everyone having their input listened to. He also said RF doesn't need to be in Finland scouting players, when we have scouts to do that. Which is why I said he may have wanted to restrict the scope of the GM's job. I'm not calling out RF...I like Ron, too.

That's not at all what's going on here. I was just disagreeing with:

1) The "Francis was the one who pushed for Paradis" (which was your assertion). Francis wasn't a scout nor a GM at the time and there is a lot of evidence that suggests otherwise (JR saying he wanted size, JR saying his guys liked Paradis, saying "that's the type of player we hoped would be avail, etc..). Seems odd now to try to put that pick on Francis because you remember hearing two reporters saying Francis liked the guy.

2) He uses his "gut" at times with surprise picks. I don't see it. If anything, his history as GM hasn't shown that at all and gone a more safe route.

Francis ran the team as a GM in a traditional role, where the buck stops with the GM and he has final say. Dundon seems to want to go to a different model where the GM has much less power (his Red, Yellow, Green analogy and his comment about the GM only being focused on trades and signings). I'm not sure how well all that will work, but I'm fine with it in the sense that he's the owner and he gets to set things up the way he sees fit, but to jump from that to "Francis doesn't listen to his scouts" seems like a big stretch to me.

 

[FlyingSquirrels]

Boomer Gordon just called the Canes situation a "complete mess" and said all Canes fans should be "terrified" about how this whole situation has been handled. Also mentioned Dundon wanting a quick search to wrap things up before his vacation, which he commented was completely idiotic.
The play in the press about our little team has been completely targeted towards vilifying Dundon as being a rich know-it-all that knows nothing about hockey.

 

[MinJaBen]

The play in the press about our little team has been completely targeted towards vilifying Dundon as being a rich know-it-all that knows nothing about hockey.

That may be the play in the press...and correct at the same time.

 

[geehaad]

Who the f*** is Boomer Gordon.

 

[Cane mutiny]

That's not at all what's going on here. I was just disagreeing with:

1) The "Francis was the one who pushed for Paradis" (which was your assertion). Francis wasn't a scout nor a GM at the time and there is a lot of evidence that suggests otherwise (JR saying he wanted size, JR saying his guys liked Paradis, saying "that's the type of player we hoped would be avail, etc..). Seems odd now to try to put that pick on Francis because you remember hearing two reporters saying Francis liked the guy.

2) He uses his "gut" at times with surprise picks. I don't see it. If anything, his history as GM hasn't shown that at all and gone a more safe route.

Francis ran the team as a GM in a traditional role, where the buck stops with the GM and he has final say. Dundon seems to want to go to a different model where the GM has much less power (his Red, Yellow, Green analogy and his comment about the GM only being focused on trades and signings). I'm not sure how well all that will work, but I'm fine with it in the sense that he's the owner and he gets to set things up the way he sees fit, but to jump from that to "Francis doesn't listen to his scouts" seems like a big stretch to me.

I never said RF didn't listen to his scouts. I said: 1) I heard 2 announcers say that RF was high on Paradis. And I did. Take it for what u think it's worth. And 2) reiterated what TD had to say about changes and the GM's job specifically. I never once said "I personally don't think RF listens to his scouts." The only thing I said, and still think, is he sometimes reaches a little for player he likes, more so than the average GM maybe. But I also said I think he got us some good players that way, and glad he did. Don't extrapolate that to be what you think I meant. What TD said are HIS words, not mine. I don't mean to be argumentative, just want to set the record straight that I do like RF, and didn't want that to be misunderstood. Wasn't ripping him, only meant to join the conversation about past picks.

 

[GoldiFox]

Who the **** is Boomer Gordon.

He’s the one in the camo Steelers jacket. Top hockey mind.

 

[Wolfpuck]

Who the **** is Boomer Gordon.

He must be a Canes insider. There are a lot of those floating around lately.

 

[MinJaBen]

He’s the one in the camo Steelers jacket. Top hockey mind.

Is he the 'I' the 'M' or the 'G'?

 

[geehaad]

Top hockey mind.

Of course he is. How silly of me.

 

[geehaad]

Is he the 'I' the 'M' or the 'G'?

Clearly all of these things and more.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I never said RF didn't listen to his scouts. I said: 1) I heard 2 announcers say that RF was high on Paradis. And I did.

It was the part where you then said: " Making me feel like he was the one that pushed for him" that I took issue with. Just like people thought it was Francis that pushed for Lindholm (which has been a common perception here on HF for years), assumptions based on minimal information aren't good assumptions. You then used that as part of your statement where he: "does seem to use his gut at times with surprise picks." Whether you meant to imply it or not, when you say a guy uses his "gut" more with surprise picks, it implies that he's not listening to the data round him (ie..the scouts), but going with his gut instead. I'm not sure how else to interpret that.

And 2) reiterated what TD had to say about changes and the GM's job specifically. I never once said "I personally don't think RF listens to his scouts." The only thing I said, and still think, is he sometimes reaches a little for player he likes, more so than the average GM maybe. But I also said I think he got us some good players that way, and glad he did. Don't extrapolate that to be what you think I meant.

I explained it above why I interpreted it that way. If that was an incorrect interpretation, then I stand corrected.

I don't mean to be argumentative, just want to set the record straight that I do like RF, and didn't want that to be misunderstood. Wasn't ripping him, only meant to join the conversation about past picks.

It's fine. I don't mind a different viewpoint and don't think you are being argumentative. I just disagree with the premise of "Francis uses his gut more" (which to me implies he is ignoring the scouting data), and using the selection of Paradis (which occurred under JR) as a data point to support that position.

To me, this comes down to Dundon wanting things done a certain way and Francis not being initially hired into the job to do them that way and the two of them not seeing eye to eye. All the other stuff about Francis pissing Dundon off (not from you), Francis going with his gut too much when drafting, etc.. is just idle speculation based on limited insight.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I seriously read somewhere yesterday that Waddell is actually the interim GM, did anyone else read that?

I heard/read that he would represent the Canes at the GM meetings in Florida, but that's all I heard.

 

[NotOpie]

I don't ever recall hearing that people in the Canes org. wanted Monahan right now but Francis thought Lindholm had more long term potential. In fact, in an interview right after the draft, JR said he though Lindholm could play in the NHL because he had already played with "men" in Sweden.

I've searched to see if I could find the quote, my point only being that Francis was a big advocate for Lindholm. I don't know (think he was director of player personnel or some such at the time) whether that carried sway with JR; I was only responding to the question about prospects/draftees that were "Ronnie's guys". I would be hard pressed, however, not to believe that JR's attraction to Lindy didn't have as much to do with paying a rookie to step into a RW role (as opposed to having to pay for a more experienced guy) and being able to fill in for a center if needed. It felt more financially pragmatic than anything.

As far as the "everybody" comment with regard to Monahan, I was speaking about the folks I read in the prospects community. There was a great lack of consensus as to which of Lindy or Monahan was the better prospect and who would go sooner. Much of what I read at the time was that Monahan was a CHL player who was "ready now", but who had a more limited ceiling. Lindy, who at the time I believe, was a bit shorter and more slight, was perceived to have the higher upside. Yes he played against men in Sweden and played well. I still am of the mind that another year in Sweden or a year in the AHL would have helped him immensely. I'm also of the mind that Lindy still hasn't reached his offensive ceiling.

 

[Cane mutiny]

It was the part where you then said: " Making me feel like he was the one that pushed for him" that I took issue with. Just like people thought it was Francis that pushed for Lindholm (which has been a common perception here on HF for years), assumptions based on minimal information aren't good assumptions. You then used that as part of your statement where he: "does seem to use his gut at times with surprise picks." Whether you meant to imply it or not, when you say a guy uses his "gut" more with surprise picks, it implies that he's not listening to the data round him (ie..the scouts), but going with his gut instead. I'm not sure how else to interpret that.



I explained it above why I interpreted it that way. If that was an incorrect interpretation, then I stand corrected.



It's fine. I don't mind a different viewpoint and don't think you are being argumentative. I just disagree with the premise of "Francis uses his gut more" (which to me implies he is ignoring the scouting data), and using the selection of Paradis (which occurred under JR) as a data point to support that position.

To me, this comes down to Dundon wanting things done a certain way and Francis not being initially hired into the job to do them that way and the two of them not seeing eye to eye. All the other stuff about Francis pissing Dundon off (not from you), Francis going with his gut too much when drafting, etc.. is just idle speculation based on limited insight.

I guess, because I do think Aho was a little bit of a reach at the time. There were still a lot of guys there that were expected to go before him, when Ron took Aho. That's not to say that some ppl weren't clued in on him, but many ppl were supprised he went so high. Not complaining now, or then. I trusted Ron at the time, and really glad to have him now. I'm also not implying that Ron made that choice soley on his own without scout backing...just to be clear. lol

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I've searched to see if I could find the quote, my point only being that Francis was a big advocate for Lindholm. I don't know (think he was director of player personnel or some such at the time) whether that carried sway with JR; I was only responding to the question about prospects/draftees that were "Ronnie's guys". I would be hard pressed, however, not to believe that JR's attraction to Lindy didn't have as much to do with paying a rookie to step into a RW role (as opposed to having to pay for a more experienced guy) and being able to fill in for a center if needed. It felt more financially pragmatic than anything.

Well, what you responded to was this question from cardiac_canes: "Does anyone remember any reports of guys we drafted or acquired who were direct picks by Francis himself and not recommended by his scouts?"

And you responded with Riley Nash and Elias Lindholm. Nash I know RF had a big hand in (although I'm not sure they weren't also recommended the scouts and Francis wasn't GM back then but set that aside). I feel the whole "Lindholm was Ronnie's guy" is something that someone mentioned on HF and it was repeated by someone else and became HF gospel over time. I remember having this discussion in the past.

Even in the audio I posted which was the day of the draft, JR says it was Robert Kron and Tony MacDonald played the biggest role in the selection of Lindholm and that JR said it was likely he could play right away, but yet you are still saying Francis was a big advocate and you were using him as an example of being one that Francis picked, which clearly, based on JR's own comments wasn't the case. Francis may have also been an advocate, but it's pretty clear based on JR's statement that it was Kron and MacDonald that drove that pick.