Confirmed with Link: Francis out as GM - Don Waddell named GM 5/8/18

[bluedevil58]

Waddell gonna be the GM.

 

[Canes]

It's just sad how much of a smoldering dumpster fire this franchise has become. This was supposed to be a year of improvement. A lot felt we should even be making the playoffs finally. Instead the team still looks bad, it still has tons of questions about the makeup of its roster, and still looks to be a bottom dweller in its division for the foreseeable future. There probably won't be a quick turnaround (unless we can somehow manage to add a #1 center, another top 6 winger and a #1 goalie with all the dead weight currently on the roster) and we're still looking at adding 2-3 years to the rebuild, and if the fanbase is as patient as they were with Ron Francis, maybe even longer than that as long as we improve on paper.

 

[bleedgreen]

Most of us thought we would be closer to the playoffs, on the bubble. Not for sure in. If you were expecting the playoffs you were expecting too much, we were at best a maybe. Not enough changed from being mediocre to suggest we were there.

After this season we’re four years into a five year plan. Next year was the year we were supposed to make it.

This team fell apart for sure, but for a long time looked close. That falls on the players as too many guys have flat out underperformed. Skinner, Faulk and Rask have impressively under produced. Lindy didn’t step forward in time, though the change to center has helped.

TT, Aho and McGinn stepping forward wasn’t enough. Hanifin didn’t improve defensively enough. Slavin and Pesce struggled a bit by comparison to the last two seasons.

Goaltending....

I don’t argue they look bad right now, but a quick turnaround is as simple as good goaltending and players performing to expectations. The Avs and Devils turned it around pretty damn quick. We can too, we have many of the pieces in place already.

 

[The Stranger]

The difference between disappointed/frustrated/doubt/impatience and ANGER is decidedly not semantics. And "anger" is the exact word that I'm taking issue with, none other, so I'm not interesting in debating any of those other words.

But any word with emotion tied to it is absurd. Emotion comes from being out of control, the inability to affect what is being done to you in a meaningful way. Dundon isn't being emotional because he has final control over the whole ball of wax. To me, that part of this is elementary.

RF balked at GM-by-committee. Dundon said, ok, then I'm going to move you out of that position because that's what the position requires. RF was pissed (absolutely justifiably so) and considered resigning (we've heard this via tweet). Dundon's part can easily be that simple, calculated, and devoid of emotion.

What's very difficult to understand is why Dundon would be *angry* at Francis. It's ludicrous.

If I said (speculation) TD had a strong feeling of displeasure when RF balked at his GM-by-committee vision (allegedly), would that be better?

In your mind, RF was pissed, but TD was calculated and devoid of emotion...it's certainly possible. I think it's also possible both were pissed...this is ludicrous/absurd to you...think we'll just have to leave it at that.

 

[Hulkacaniac]

I mean it's not like the cause for concern isn't baseless. Kypreos and O'Neill aren't reliable sources, but 3 major candidates did drop out of the process. Some of them had a few face to face interviews, one of the guys apparently flew down to Mexico to meet Dundon. It's not like the interview process suddenly reminded them there's a dozen games left in the season and that the "time wasn't right." I also find it weird that so much info about the course of the process would get leaked out. Dundon needs to "leak" his side to DeCock or someone if this info is false. The 400K salary thing is too odd and specific to just be part of some Canadian media conspiracy against Dundon even if it is false.

 

[TheBigKahuna]

Waddell gonna be the GM.

And they'll lose at least one more fan.

 

[Cane mutiny]

From what I've pieced together from all the tweets and statements via interviews that TD gave, I think he has been misinterpreted a bit. 1) He said he does not intend to micrmanage. In fact he said he he doesn't want to make decisions. He wants the people he hires to be able to make them. 2) He wants the people he hires to have input into decisions that relate to their job. He used scouting as an example. Meaning... 3) He doesn't want all the decision making for everything to come from one person, i.e. RF. This all led me to believe he thought RF was overextending the reach of his job as TD sees it, and wanted to restrict his responsibilities to GM duties only, as in overseeing the team, the budget, trades, etc. My guess is RF didn't take it well. 4) He will make some rookie mistakes related to hockey business, like this GM hiring fiasco, but I think he'll learn quickly from his mistakes and will be okay in the long run. I hope.

 

[HisIceness]

Right now I feel like we're re-living the nightmare we went through before Dundon. The one where Quebec vultures picked and clawed at us relentlessly before Dundon saved us.

Hope this gets solved soon and with the right guy.

 

[NotOpie]

Dundon says he wants to puts a system in place that leaves very little gray area in decision-making. Everything is black and white (or green and red in his example)

That's not exactly how I read this. It isn't that there's very little grey area in decision-making, it is that certain decisions, when all the data is in/considered, are nearly self-evident (drafting certain players, for example). There there were the "yellow light" decisions where the GMs really earned their salary....using their knowledge, experience, and "feel" to make the best decision. If a GM felt a decision needed to go against the green light/red light evidence, they then had to make a damn good argument and those arguments would likely need to be fewer in number. It essentially limits, but doesn't eliminate the "gut feel" decisions.

the reflexive blowback you're seeing is a lot of insecurity on behalf of the institution that ron francis represented as opposed to the man himself.

I think there's a bit of this, but I think it is a lot more basic confusion. People don't react well to the things they don't understand and often attack those same things.

He will make some rookie mistakes related to hockey business, like this GM hiring fiasco, but I think he'll learn quickly from his mistakes and will be okay in the long run. I hope.

Rookie mistakes? Almost assuredly. Fiasco? I again, don't view it in that way. It is unfolding in a way that spawns rumors and innuendo...I get the sense the Tom Dundon doesn't give two shits about how the hockey media is reporting this currently. Sure, it might affect the pool of candidates, but that's why it is going more "underground".

Look, I don't think this guys "can do no wrong", but I do believe he's got a bit more savvy than is being portrayed. This is indeed one of those times where letting it play out is probably the easiest thing on the psyche. If we end up with Waddell, I'd find that curious. If we end up with Vellucci, I'd be fine with that.

 

[Svechhammer]

If you were expecting the playoffs you were expecting too much

Lol the franchise itself said we should expect the playoffs when they sent out mailings to STM this past summer.

Let's settle down with the revisionist thinking for a little while. This season is an abject failure. The team set a public goal of playoffs or bust and they failed. Yes, those were the expectations and they failed to meet them. Because of it, Ron Francis is no longer the GM.

Sometimes it's ok to not sugar coat the poopy cake.

 

[AD Skinner]

Expecting a blind squirrel to find a nut once a decade is not expecting too much, from where I sit

 

[Stickpucker]

I mean it's not like the cause for concern isn't baseless. Kypreos and O'Neill aren't reliable sources, but 3 major candidates did drop out of the process. Some of them had a few face to face interviews, one of the guys apparently flew down to Mexico to meet Dundon. It's not like the interview process suddenly reminded them there's a dozen games left in the season and that the "time wasn't right." I also find it weird that so much info about the course of the process would get leaked out. Dundon needs to "leak" his side to DeCock or someone if this info is false. The 400K salary thing is too odd and specific to just be part of some Canadian media conspiracy against Dundon even if it is false.

I've been wondering....can a GM salary have performance bonuses?

Lets say TD is offering a base salary of 400k
-400k bonus for hitting 37 wins
-200k bonus for qualifying for playoffs
-200k bonus for winning division
-200k bonus for each round of playoffs progressed through.

Basically telling candidates here is your chance at your dream job... If you suck the pay will be more than enough to pay your bills but will be below market average. If you do a good job you'll be towards the upper echelon in pay.

 

[Stickpucker]

RE the green, yellow, red light...makes you really wonder if our scouts told TD they suggested RF pick players X, Y, and Z and he ignored them repeatedly and the players we ended up with have been mediocre or aren't in the NHL while the ones scouts suggested are ripping up the league.

I shouldn't need to say this but of course this is speculation...

 

[Blueline Bomber]

RE the green, yellow, red light...makes you really wonder if our scouts told TD they suggested RF pick players X, Y, and Z and he ignored them repeatedly and the players we ended up with have been mediocre or aren't in the NHL while the ones scouts suggested are ripping up the league.

I shouldn't need to say this but of course this is speculation...

If that's true, it'd be an odd decision to keep Francis in the organization as what amounts to a glorified scout.

 

[Hulkacaniac]

I've been wondering....can a GM salary have performance bonuses?

Lets say TD is offering a base salary of 400k
-400k bonus for hitting 37 wins
-200k bonus for qualifying for playoffs
-200k bonus for winning division
-200k bonus for each round of playoffs progressed through.

Basically telling candidates here is your chance at your dream job... If you suck the pay will be more than enough to pay your bills but will be below market average. If you do a good job you'll be towards the upper echelon in pay.

There's no way to know what the truth is everything in the spectrum between Dundon offering 400K salary being true and it being completely false is a possibility. Perhaps there were performance bonuses and those details weren't passed along. Maybe some insiders played a game of telephone and Dundon was offering 400K below the average salary. So many possibilities that could all be reasonably argued for.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

If that's true, it'd be an odd decision to keep Francis in the organization as what amounts to a glorified scout.

RF did a pretty decent job of finding guys in the later rounds both while he was the GM and potentially beforehand - so his lack of success as a GM does not necessarily equal a lack of player evaluation talent.

That being said I would guess that RF will have a role of introducing the incumbent to the pieces currently in the organization - but will be gone as soon as his contract expires or he takes another job.

Regarding the timing of the "firing" I'd speculate there's a good chance that had been Dundon's plan for a while - potentially since he bought the team. To me it made since to keep Francis in place just through the deadline so that we were not sans GM if any moves became available.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Bear in mind two things:

1) Dundon describes himself as a "disruptor". He comes out of a business culture where there is no such thing as patience, you have to be pushing hard to move forward all the time or you get the axe. He is the opposite of Ron Francis in that respect, and they would have been philosophically at odds from Day 1.

2) You don't become a billionaire in subprime loans because you've got a sentimental approach to business. I'm not judging Dundon for this, but let's be honest, he ****ed a lot of people over to get rich. He's not the kind of guy who's going to understand or particularly care about the Old Boys Club, so it's not a surprise to see him immediately at odds with them.


He's just a different kind of guy altogether than what you usually see at the head of an NHL franchise. He's taking an approach to running the Hurricanes that's imported from an altogether different kind of business with a different approach to leadership and decision-making. It's actually kind of fascinating to watch this all play out from close range (other than the part where it feels like we may be watching him salt our fields for the next decade) because our franchise is suddenly a proving-ground for his idea of how to build a successful organization.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Does anyone remember any reports of guys we drafted or acquired who were direct picks by Francis himself and not recommended by his scouts?

The only two I can think of off the top of my head are Noah Babin And Jeremy Welsh. Those are two instances where reports said these are guys he really liked and wanted us to pursue.

 

[Cane mutiny]

Does anyone remember any reports of guys we drafted or acquired who were direct picks by Francis himself and not recommended by his scouts?

The only two I can think of off the top of my head are Noah Babin And Jeremy Welsh. Those are two instances where reports said these are guys he really liked and wanted us to pursue.

At the draft that we picked Paradis, the announcers in talking about the weird pick mentioned that RF was really high on this this kid. Making me feel like he was the one that pushed for him.
I think its more a matter of putting trust and more weight in the opinions of the people whose job it is to find the talent, than going with your own gut feeling is what TD wants to see.

 

[Moosetache]

kinda tough to be taken seriously if you are in fact offering 400k when the average GM is making about 1.5 mil per a search I just did (of course also assuming that is accurate).

 

[cptjeff]

kinda tough to be taken seriously if you are in fact offering 400k when the average GM is making about 1.5 mil per a search I just did (of course also assuming that is accurate).

Quite frankly, I'm assuming that there's a kernel of truth to it- that TD offered $400k as a signing bonus, or for the remainder of the season, both of which would be entirely reasonable, and the $400k part leaked out without the context. The hockey media is then running with it as a juicy scoop that allows their Canadian readers to hate on the Canes, because that's the story that gets clicks.

We're not gonna get the whole story from tweets by people who hate the franchise and everything it stands for. Just ain't gonna happen.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

At the draft that we picked Paradis, the announcers in talking about the weird pick mentioned that RF was really high on this this kid. Making me feel like he was the one that pushed for him.
I think its more a matter of putting trust and more weight in the opinions of the people whose job it is to find the talent, than going with your own gut feeling is what TD wants to see.

Which announcers? My recollection was that Paradis was chosen because JR said very clearly, after being manhandled in the playoffs that he was going to add size through the draft and that's what he did, ability be damned. Here's the video from the draft and there's no mention there of RF being high on this kid.



LOL at Pierre's comment at the end: Carolina's got some good young forwards Brandon Sutter, Drayson Bowman, Zach Boychuk and now this kid. Will help to insulate Eric Staal.

 

[bleedgreen]

I think the overuling of scouts is pretty highly over rated. I doubt RF nixed scouts recommendation once he was GM, he would know that's not his place once he reached that high.

 

[Cane mutiny]

Which announcers? My recollection was that Paradis was chosen because JR said very clearly, after being manhandled in the playoffs that he was going to add size through the draft and that's what he did, ability be damned. Here's the video from the draft and there's no mention there of RF being high on this kid.



LOL at Pierre's comment at the end: Carolina's got some good young forwards Brandon Sutter, Drayson Bowman, Zach Boychuk and now this kid. Will help to insulate Eric Staal.

It was after the pick, when two announcers were discussing the pick, not sure of names, but it wasn't the Pierre...I'd remember him, and they clearly said RF liked him, no mention of JR by them. What Pierre said, I don't know...I never listen to him.

 

[bleedgreen]

And they'll lose at least one more fan.

I seriously read somewhere yesterday that Waddell is actually the interim GM, did anyone else read that?