Franchise center vs franchise defenseman

KoozNetsOff 92

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Franchise center please.

To me it feels like teams that consistently make the playoffs put just can't pull off a cup win(Blues, Rangers, Preds, Habs) all have one thing in common: They got a great number 1 defenseman, but they lack of a game-breaking center(Preds do have Johansen, but he was injured in the finals).

This can easily be flipped. Teams like the caps, ducks, flyers, NYI have made the playoffs a bunch of times over the last few years but don't have a cup final to show for it. They all have/had a great 1C, but they all lack a true 1D. I can see Edmonton and Dallas joining this group. And at least the Rangers and preds made the SCF.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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When was this?

The only one in the last ten years was Pittsburgh, but they made up for it with two generational centers, and still had to get lucky. And they had a franchise D who happened to be hurt.

Also within the last ten years, the Ducks won with Pronger and Niedermeyer, and Andy McDonald as their 1C. So if you wanna cherry puck Pittsburgh, the opposite has happened just as often.

I don't see all these teams winning without star D as people so often claim.

Often? No. But I think it's a bit more common.

Pittsburgh in 2009 - Gonchar was a good offensive defenseman, but was he really a "franchise" defenseman at that point in his career? That doesn't even touch on the fact he played the final two rounds on one leg thanks to the Ovechkin knee-on-knee in round 2.

Carolina in 2006 - Who was even their best defenseman?

So since the lockout, one could argue that a team has won the cup 3 times (Canes and 2009/2017 Pens) without a franchise defenseman, but only 1 team (2007 Ducks) have won without a franchise centerman.
 

Mrb1p

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Wouldn't it be fair to say that the defenseman has a bigger impact on the game just by virtue of him being out on the ice more? In the playoffs it's not unusual for a top defenseman to play close to 30 minutes a game.

Theres a bigger rift in the ability of a franchise C to a 1C than a franchise D to a 1D
 

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
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Gotta be a centre. We've only had a #1 in Ottawa once (Yashin) and we had some success with Spezza, but that was mostly Alfredsson "clicking" and going deep for us.

Even with Karlsson carrying us, we rely on luck too much to win. Gotta have that franchise C.

Spezza was a number 1 and had nothing to do with Alfie, Spezza had a PPG for almost 700 games.
 

Luigi Lemieux

Registered User
Sep 26, 2003
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Defenseman. As a Bolts fan, we have had 1 legit franchise dman ever, and he makes life so much easier.
But as a bolts fan i'm sure you know you won your cup with two great centers and a defense by committee.

Same with Carolina in 06. Pittsburgh in 09 is borderline as Gonchar was 4th in Norris voting in 08. Pittsburgh in 2017 obviously.

Seems defense by committee is more do-able than winning cups without elite centers.
 

93LEAFS

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Nov 7, 2009
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Center, elite centers drive possession and control of a game to a greater extent than any other position on the ice at 5v5 and at a more consistent level from year to year. Especially if you are talking about the average franchise center vs the average franchise defender. As you can obviously pick out specific examples that run counter to this.
 

bambamcam4ever

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Feb 16, 2012
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Often? No. But I think it's a bit more common.

Pittsburgh in 2009 - Gonchar was a good offensive defenseman, but was he really a "franchise" defenseman at that point in his career? That doesn't even touch on the fact he played the final two rounds on one leg thanks to the Ovechkin knee-on-knee in round 2.

Carolina in 2006 - Who was even their best defenseman?

So since the lockout, one could argue that a team has won the cup 3 times (Canes and 2009/2017 Pens) without a franchise defenseman, but only 1 team (2007 Ducks) have won without a franchise centerman.

It should be noted that the Ducks had a franchise 1C, he just didn't get #1 minutes until the playoffs. Plus they had a franchise forward in Selanne.
 

Tv9924

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Often? No. But I think it's a bit more common.

Pittsburgh in 2009 - Gonchar was a good offensive defenseman, but was he really a "franchise" defenseman at that point in his career? That doesn't even touch on the fact he played the final two rounds on one leg thanks to the Ovechkin knee-on-knee in round 2.

Carolina in 2006 - Who was even their best defenseman?

So since the lockout, one could argue that a team has won the cup 3 times (Canes and 2009/2017 Pens) without a franchise defenseman, but only 1 team (2007 Ducks) have won without a franchise centerman.

I don't think Boston had a franchise center.
 

VoluntaryDom

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But as a bolts fan i'm sure you know you won your cup with two great centers and a defense by committee.

Same with Carolina in 06. Pittsburgh in 09 is borderline as Gonchar was 4th in Norris voting in 08. Pittsburgh in 2017 obviously.

Seems defense by committee is more do-able than winning cups without elite centers.

this is true about the bolts but we were mostly a franchise winger team (martin st. louis)

there is a reason that the furthest we got in the stamkos era before hedman broke out was the ecf, and that was only once.
 

Juxtaposer

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Center. It is almost impossible to get an elite #1C if you don't draft in the top-5, and they rarely get traded.

I bet half the #1D in this league were drafted outside the top-10.
 

KoozNetsOff 92

Hala Madrid
Apr 6, 2016
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Often? No. But I think it's a bit more common.

Pittsburgh in 2009 - Gonchar was a good offensive defenseman, but was he really a "franchise" defenseman at that point in his career? That doesn't even touch on the fact he played the final two rounds on one leg thanks to the Ovechkin knee-on-knee in round 2.

Carolina in 2006 - Who was even their best defenseman?

So since the lockout, one could argue that a team has won the cup 3 times (Canes and 2009/2017 Pens) without a franchise defenseman, but only 1 team (2007 Ducks) have won without a franchise centerman.

Pittsburgh shouldn't count because they have a generational player and a generational talent, who would've been a generational player if not for injuries, at C.

Really it's 1-1.
 

A1LeafNation

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Oct 17, 2010
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Not only do you need a franchise center to win a cup, but you need them on the right side of 30 to do it.

Staal Getzlaf Datsyuk Crosby Toews Bergeron Kopitar.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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I don't think Boston had a franchise center.

Bergeron's pretty damn close to being a guy who'd be seen as a franchise center.

Pittsburgh shouldn't count because they have a generational player and a generational talent, who would've been a generational player if not for injuries, at C.

Really it's 1-1.

:laugh: What? Let's remove Pittsburgh because they had 2 franchise centers to prove that franchise centers aren't important? That makes zero sense. Pittsburgh's the poster boy for what franchise centers can do for a franchise even without franchise defensemen.
 

KoozNetsOff 92

Hala Madrid
Apr 6, 2016
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Bergeron's pretty damn close to being a guy who'd be seen as a franchise center.



:laugh: What? Let's remove Pittsburgh because they had 2 franchise centers to prove that franchise centers aren't important? That makes zero sense. Pittsburgh's the poster boy for what franchise centers can do for a franchise even without franchise defensemen.

Lol no I think you misunderstood. It's a question of a franchise C vs franchise D. As in 1v1. The pens have 2 guys who are above franchise C. So yes they lack a franchise D but they have 2 franchise Cs. So it's not the same comparison.
 

Connor

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Aug 17, 2015
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If you were starting a team from scratch would you rather build around a #1 center or a #1 defenseman?

You should re-phrase the question/poll;

If you were starting a franchise from scratch who would you rather have:

A #1 centre similarly as impactful as Crosby

or

A #1 defenceman similarly as impacful as Pronger
 

triggrman

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While maybe not "franchise" level we've had no less than 5 very good top pairing defensemen over the 10 years, we've had 1 top line center. So I'm saying top pairing defenders must be easier to find.
 

tony d

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The franchise centre. I participate in the ATD's here on hfboards. Given a choice between Gretzky and Orr for #1 overall I'd go with Gretzky.
 

wintersej

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Since lockout...

Crosby > Letang
Keith > Toews
Doughty > Kopitar
Chara > Bergeron
Lidstrom > Datsyuk
Pronger > Getzlaf
Staal > Kaberle

Not sure how you don't vote D. Easier to supplement a average #1C with a 1B center than it is to get the multiple d-men you need to replace a true #1D.
 

wintersej

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Not only do you need a franchise center to win a cup, but you need them on the right side of 30 to do it.

Staal Getzlaf Datsyuk Crosby Toews Bergeron Kopitar.

Carolina is the big outlier. But all these teams except for Carolina had a #1D, too. And for all of those teams except for the Pens, the #1 D was better than the #1 C.
 

wintersej

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You should re-phrase the question/poll;

If you were starting a franchise from scratch who would you rather have:

A #1 centre similarly as impactful as Crosby

or

A #1 defenceman similarly as impacful as Pronger

Obviously Crosby here. Pronger just seems to have gotten better every day since he retired. Its weird.
 

TopTenPlayz

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But as a bolts fan i'm sure you know you won your cup with two great centers and a defense by committee.

Same with Carolina in 06. Pittsburgh in 09 is borderline as Gonchar was 4th in Norris voting in 08. Pittsburgh in 2017 obviously.

Seems defense by committee is more do-able than winning cups without elite centers.

Dan Boyle was a very good d-man at that time; probably top 15. Carolina in 06, I agree. As for the Pens, I don't think we can use them as a blueprint because their top two centers are clearly above regular franchise centers. Crosby and Malkin are among two of the very best players of all time. The Pens wouldn't have won any cup with let's say Getzlaf and Kopitar for example imo.

I don't think the answer to the OP can be definitive. Always depends on who the players are in question. But just for fun, I think Karlsson is the best player in the league currently so I'll choose defence.
 

Peggy

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Aug 6, 2016
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Bergeron's pretty damn close to being a guy who'd be seen as a franchise center.



:laugh: What? Let's remove Pittsburgh because they had 2 franchise centers to prove that franchise centers aren't important? That makes zero sense. Pittsburgh's the poster boy for what franchise centers can do for a franchise even without franchise defensemen.

Why is that something to laugh at?
The question is either or
In this case pitsburgh has arguably the 2 best centres in the past decade
 

Peggy

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Aug 6, 2016
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I think there are people here who are voting centre is because their team doesn't have an elite 1d

If you're not gonna have an elite 1d you'll have to make up for it with goaltending and another elite centre
 

Puckstuff

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I'd take the defenseman. They are generally have better longevity than a center.



A d-man's prime elite is typically 24-34 IE: Keith, Karlsson. Sometimes it can be as early as 22.

A C's prime is typically 19-28. IE: Crosby, Mcdavid, Matthews. Even guys like Giroux seem to tail of a little bit around 30. Even Crosby is closer to a 90 point guy then a 120 point guy. You see studs like Mcdavid, Draistal, Matthews, Eichel etc come in pretty early and have success.
 

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