Foster Hewitt Division Discussion Thread

jarek

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Aug 15, 2009
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NOTE: Please read the following prior to discussion.

The discussion in this thread is related to the division specified in the title only. All other potential matchups that could occur league wide are irrelevant as it pertains to the results of voting in this division. As such, compare only the 3 teams in this division to each other when voting.

@29GoalHoglund @ResilientBeast @rmartin65

Please post your rosters as you'd like us to view them as it pertains to voting. Mods, can you guys please make sure the 3 roster posts are at the top of the thread and all in-between posts are deleted?

Discussion may begin once all rosters are posted.
 

rmartin65

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Apr 7, 2011
2,660
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New York Americans

New_York_Americans_Logo.svg


Coaches: Anatoli Tarasov, Billy Reay
Captain: Boris Mikhailov
Alternate Captains: Sid Abel, Anze Kopitar, Brad Park

Paul Kariya-Stan Mikita-Boris Mikhailov
Sid Abel-Steven Stamkos-Rod Gilbert
Gordon Roberts-Anze Kopitar-Ace Bailey
Dave Balon-Don Luce-Blair Russel

Spare Forwards: Lynn Patrick, LW, Terry O'Reilly, RW

Borje Salming-Brad Park
Babe Siebert-Bob Goldham
Vasili Davydov-Joe Hall

Spare Defense: Lars-Erik Sjoberg

Bernie Parent
Sergei Bobrovsky

PP1
Stamkos-Mikita-Mikhailov
Kariya-Park

PP2
Roberts-Abel-Gilbert
Salming-Hall

PK1
Luce-Bailey
Salming-Goldham

PK2
Kopitar-Dave Balon
Siebert-Park

Well, I am sure every GM says it this time of year, but I have to say it- I am really excited about this team.

Coaching and Leadership
This has historically been a weaker part of my teams, but not this year; Tarasov and Reay fit well with my team- an attacking team with a strong defense- with Mikhailov and Abel leading on the ice and in the locker room, I don’t think we have any concerns on that front.

1st Line
This is one of the strongest lines in the draft, in my opinion. Offensively, it has it all- 2 very capable puck carriers that can beat you with a pass or a shot in Kariya and Mikita to go with puck-winning and defensive ability in Mikita and Mikhailov. VsX isn’t the end-all-be-all, but this unit has a 7 year score of 278.7 (if you give Mikhailov an 86, which is roughly the same score as Iginla. I think he should be higher, but I will make that case at another time). As far as negatives- it is not a very physical line. Mikita and Mikhailov are pretty ornery and won’t back down from anyone, but this line wont be a physically punishing unit.

2nd Line
I haven’t run the numbers for all of the teams, but again, this unit has to be one of the more offensively potent 2nd lines out there, with a 7-year VsX of 253.4, with the potential to increase with Stamkos’ current season- it is basically a suped-up GAG line, with Abel playing the ‘driver’/’digger’ role (as he did in real-life) and defensive safety-valve. Stamkos brings top-notch sniping and underrated playmaking, while Gilbert does the same thing he did alongside Ratelle and Hadfield. Everyone can pass (to varying degrees), and everyone can score. I should add that Abel will take the lion’s share of faceoffs. The downside to this line is that I don’t think it is very strong defensively, nor, like the top line, will it be a physically punishing squad. While I don’t think Stamkos and Gilbert are bad defensive players, they don’t seem to be much more than average in that respect. Abel is above average, but still, the unit as a whole is below average in that regard.

3rd Line
Building around Kopitar, my 3rd line is predicated on strong 2-way play. Kopitar has to be one of the upper-tier 2 way 3rd line centers at this point (in terms of total offensive and defensive package), and Roberts and Bailey add additional size and ability to the unit. Getting VsX out of the way (and giving Roberts a 74, as per a number I saw thrown about last year)- 217.7, not including the bump that Kopitar is going to get this year. Each player is well-above average in size, and while maybe not a punishing line, they can each play the body well and effectively.

4th Line
This line is mainly for defensive situations. It could use more physicality, but I think in terms of skill and ability, this line is above average among the other 4th lines in the league.

Spares
It is unfortunate that most people (I assume) pay little attention to spares, because I think I landed 2 players here that could very easily be regulars; Patrick in particular should be a very solid second-liner, but his extreme dislike of the physical game relegates him to spare-status in a draft this size. However, because he is so talented, I have no problems with him taking over for Kariya when Kariya is injured. O’Reilly adds some muscle without being useless offensively. I didn’t draft a center because I have a couple wingers who played center- Abel and Russel can both shift to center.

1st Pairing
While I missed out on one of the elite number 1 defensemen, in a draft this size Park is still an average to above-average one who is very well-rounded. Salming is a low-end number 1/elite number 2 who is also pretty well rounded, so this should be one of the better 1st pairings in the league. Simply put, it is a plus pairing across the board- defensive ability, physicality, skating, passing, and shooting.

2nd Pairing
I follow up my 1st pairing with another strong unit, with Siebert being a high-end number 3/low-end number 2, and Goldham being a solid number 4. Siebert brings the physicality and offensive skills, while Goldham is the stay-at-home shot blocker with a good outlet pass. Stylistically, I really like this pairing.

3rd Pairing
Again, I think I hit on meshing styles, in much the same way as I did on my second pairing- Davydov plays the role of defensive safety-valve (though many people have written about his passing and skating abilities), while Hall plays the role of offensive driver with a (wicked) mean-streak.

Spare
Sjoberg is an undersized defender but brings a physical presence and strong offensive game. He is a spare, but I don’t have a problem with him on my bottom pairing in the event of injury.

Goaltenders
I am below average here, I wont try to argue the point. However, Parent is not weak to the point that I think he puts my team at a significant disadvantage, especially in the playoffs (where Parent shined). Bobrovsky is a bit of a mercurial case, with very high highs and pretty low lows. However, few backups can boast of 2 Vezina’s/1st Team All-Star nods and 2 Top-5 Hart voting finishes in a 30 team league. His playoff record is quite poor… but I (or rather, Tarasov and Reay) wont be starting our backup in the playoffs. Bobrovsky is there to spell Parent in the regular season, and to keep Parent fresh for the playoffs. Bobrovksy certainly has the record for that.

PP
I think my PP units are above average, but not elite. On my top unit, Mikita, Park and Kariya should be able to drive defenses crazy finding the open shooter (ideally Stamkos or Park), with Mikhailov provind screens and getting greasy garbage goals. The second unit is set up in much the same way, with Gilbert, Salming and Siebert (or Hall, I haven’t really decided) distributing the puck to each other or Roberts, and Abel being the net-front presence.

PK
Like my PP units, I think my PK is pretty strong all the way around. Luce is one of the best, and Kopitar is easily a top PK player who I have slumming it on the second unit. The defensemen are all above-average as PKers as well, with Salming, Goldham and Davydov being well-noted shot blockers.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Edmonton
Edmonton-Oilers-Logo-Font.jpg


Coach: Toe Blake

Patrik Elias (A) --- Cyclone Taylor --- Charlie Conacher
Sweeney Schriner --- Norm Ullman --- Cecil Dillon
Ed Sandford --- Cooney Weiland --- Corey Perry
Tony Leswick--- Derek Sanderson --- Ron Stewart

Ivan Johnson --- Doug Harvey (A)
Ebbie Goodfellow (C) --- Cy Wentworth
Bobby Rowe --- Art Duncan (A)

Hugh Lehman

Hap Holmes

Extra: Jack Adams (LW), Art Chapman (C), Bruce MacGregor (RW/C), Viktor Kuzkin (D)

PP1: Schriner - Ullman - Conacher - Taylor - Harvey

PP2: Elias - Weiland - Perry - Goodfellow - Duncan
PK1: Sanderson- Dillon - Johnson - Harvey
PK2: Leswick - Stewart - Goodfellow - Wentworth
PK3: Weiland - Elias

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Forwards

PlayerESPPPKTotal
Cyclone Taylor155020
Charlie Conacher155020
Patrik Elias152017
Norm Ullman145019
Cecil Dillon140418
Sweeny Schriner145019
Cooney Weiland102012
Corey Perry102012
Ed Sandford7007
Derek Sanderson70411
Ron Stewart70310
Tony Leswick100313
Totals1382614
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
*Notes*
Taylor is playing the point on my first power play unit. Leswick is playing on our dedicated checking line but will see heavy time as a shadow against top right wings.

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Defensemen


PlayerESPPPKTotal
Doug Harvey185427
Ivan Johnson180422
Ebbie Goodfellow162321
Cy Wentworth160319
Art Duncan122014
Bobby Rowe120012
Totals92914
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,660
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Edmonton-Oilers-Logo-Font.jpg


Coach: Toe Blake

Patrik Elias (A) --- Cyclone Taylor --- Charlie Conacher
Sweeney Schriner --- Norm Ullman --- Cecil Dillon
Ed Sandford --- Cooney Weiland --- Corey Perry
Tony Leswick--- Derek Sanderson --- Ron Stewart

Ivan Johnson --- Doug Harvey (A)
Ebbie Goodfellow (C) --- Cy Wentworth
Bobby Rowe --- Art Duncan (A)

Hugh Lehman

Hap Holmes

Extra: Jack Adams (LW), Art Chapman (C), Bruce MacGregor (RW/C), Viktor Kuzkin (D)

PP1: Schriner - Ullman - Conacher - Taylor - Harvey

PP2: Elias - Weiland - Perry - Goodfellow - Duncan
PK1: Sanderson- Dillon - Johnson - Harvey
PK2: Leswick - Stewart - Goodfellow - Wentworth
PK3: Weiland - Elias

As I said in the assassination thread, I think you have a very strong team. However... I think that my New York Americans would win a hard-fought series against your Edmonton Oilers.

Top-6
I think I have the advantage on the first line, while you have the advantage between our second units. On our first lines, I have 4 Harts, 4 Art Rosses, 9 1st team all-star nods, and 4 2nd team all-star nods (plus whatever for Mikhailov), while you have 2 Art Rosses, 4 first team all-star nods and 2 second team all-star nods (plus whatever for Taylor). Obviously you'll make up some ground there between Mikhailov and Taylor, but I dont think you'll get there.

Your second line is better, largely because it is a better defensive unit. Offensively I think it's pretty close (once you take Stamkos' current season into account). Awards/All-Star nods are pretty close, though- 1 Hart, 3 1st team all-star nods, and 4 2nd team all-star nods for me, 2 Art Rosses, 5 first team all-star nods, and 3 2nd team all-star nods for you. And I think I'll come out ahead in top-5 finishes, but I'll have to get to that later.

Bottom 6
Again, pretty close, but I'll take my 3rd line before yours, while our 4th lines are essentially a wash.

Defense
We have 2 of the stronger defensive corps in the league this year. You clearly have the best player, but I think my first pairing is stronger, as Salming is far superior to Johnson. Our 2nd units are about equal, with you have the stronger 3 and me having the stronger 4. My 3rd pairing is superior, as I think my 5 is stronger than your 5, and my 6 is stronger than your 6.

Goalie
I wont claim this to be a strong part of my team, but I think I have the advantage. Parent has one of the best goalie peaks of all-time.

Special Teams
I would say equal on the PP, but your PK forwards are better than mine.
 
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ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Edmonton
As I said in the assassination thread, I think you have a very strong team. However... I think that my New York Americans would win a hard-fought series against your Edmonton Oilers.

Top-6
I think I have the advantage on the first line, while you have the advantage between our second units. On our first lines, I have 4 Harts, 4 Art Rosses, 9 1st team all-star nods, and 4 2nd team all-star nods (plus whatever for Mikhailov), while you have 2 Art Rosses, 4 first team all-star nods and 2 second team all-star nods (plus whatever for Taylor). Obviously you'll make up some ground there between Mikhailov and Taylor, but I dont think you'll get there.

Your second line is better, largely because it is a better defensive unit. Offensively I think it's pretty close (once you take Stamkos' current season into account). Awards/All-Star nods are pretty close, though- 1 Hart, 3 1st team all-star nods, and 4 2nd team all-star nods for me, 2 Art Rosses, 5 first team all-star nods, and 3 2nd team all-star nods for you. And I think I'll come out ahead in top-5 finishes, but I'll have to get to that later.

Bottom 6
Again, pretty close, but I'll take my 3rd line before yours, while our 4th lines are essentially a wash.

Defense
We have 2 of the stronger defensive corps in the league this year. You clearly have the best player, but I think my first pairing is stronger, as Salming is far superior to Johnson. Our 2nd units are about equal, with you have the stronger 3 and me having the stronger 4. My 3rd pairing is superior, as I think my 5 is stronger than your 5, and my 6 is stronger than your 6.

Goalie
I wont claim this to be a strong part of my team, but I think I have the advantage. Parent has one of the best goalie peaks of all-time.

Special Teams
I would say equal on the PP, but your PK forwards are better than mine.

I've been swamped with work, but here to call a few things out.

Comparing raw accolades is a pretty weak way of comparing offence

Kariya - 84.9
Mikita - 102.5
Mikhalov - ???

Elias - 78.9
Conacher - 96.2
Taylor - ???

So with me missing my best offensive player (who I would guess would be the second best offensive player on either team

You - 187.4
Me - 175.1

A difference of ~12 in VsX which IMO is likely made up by Taylor.

Offensively I think I have the advantage.

Intangibly, Kariya was nothing special defensively, Mikita has a reputation but I thought that has been recently disputed. Taylor clearly could play defensively and Elias had a reputation being the defensive safety valve for a line, a roll that Mikita likely hadn't had to fill.

Second lines (not counting current season)

Abel - 87.3
Stamkos - 83
Gilbert - 83.1

Schrinner - 91.3
Ullman - 89.5
Dillon - 78.1

You - 253.4
Me - 258.9

Relatively close, however Dillon is likely treated poorly by VsX since he was for the bulk of his career second fiddle to Bill Cook.

My line is marginally better offensively and without a doubt better defensively.

Your top six is strong, but I think mine is just better.

Top lines close to even
Second lines clear advantage for my team.

I disagree on your pairing comparisons shockingly (right?)

I have the 2/3 best D of all time while Park is quite a bit deal worse than Harvey. And general sentiment in the draft thread seems to see his value depreciating. He has a great deal of accolades in what might have been the weakest period for defencemen in NHL history.

Salming is better than Johnson, but I don't think it's enough to close the gap.

Salming (AST) - 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 7, 9, 12, 13
Johnson (AST) - 1/2, 1/2, 3/4, 3/4 (I don't know his exact voting)

Second pairings, your evaluation skims over the sheer quality of my 4D

Why are you suggesting Goldham > Wentworth?

Goldham's AST record he according to a bio only has a second team finish

Wentworth in an era where AST votes are harder to find has a better record 4, 5, 5, 8

If anything our second pairings are close to even, but I won't give on more than that.

The biggest gap between
Harvey - Park
Johnson - Salming
Goodfellow - Siebert
Wentworth - Goldham

Is between Harvey and Park IMO.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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My initial thought on the Brampton Beavers (just going off of picks, since a roster isn't out yet) is that they are a hell of an all-star team, but have severe weaknesses as an actual, 82-game team. I'll post more once a roster is put out.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Edmonton
Special teams, both my PK units are clearly better and will help offset your PP units.

The only clear "advantage" your team has is in net IMO and my team is constructed to handle that with the personnel selected.

My top pairing contains two of the greatest defensive defensemen of all time and will help minimize any damage your offensive units could do.

My second pairing features a strong two guy with a man considered one of the best defensive D of his time
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,902
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Edmonton
Additionally since this is a regular season discussion, Lehman v Parent becomes far closer IMO

Lehman has incredible consistency as a regular season goalie.

I just missed that we aren't quite doing playoff discussions
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,660
2,143
I've been swamped with work, but here to call a few things out.

Comparing raw accolades is a pretty weak way of comparing offence

Kariya - 84.9
Mikita - 102.5
Mikhalov - ???

Elias - 78.9
Conacher - 96.2
Taylor - ???

So with me missing my best offensive player (who I would guess would be the second best offensive player on either team

You - 187.4
Me - 175.1

A difference of ~12 in VsX which IMO is likely made up by Taylor.

Offensively I think I have the advantage.

Intangibly, Kariya was nothing special defensively, Mikita has a reputation but I thought that has been recently disputed. Taylor clearly could play defensively and Elias had a reputation being the defensive safety valve for a line, a roll that Mikita likely hadn't had to fill.

Second lines (not counting current season)

Abel - 87.3
Stamkos - 83
Gilbert - 83.1

Schrinner - 91.3
Ullman - 89.5
Dillon - 78.1

You - 253.4
Me - 258.9

Relatively close, however Dillon is likely treated poorly by VsX since he was for the bulk of his career second fiddle to Bill Cook.

My line is marginally better offensively and without a doubt better defensively.

Your top six is strong, but I think mine is just better.

Top lines close to even
Second lines clear advantage for my team.

I disagree on your pairing comparisons shockingly (right?)

I have the 2/3 best D of all time while Park is quite a bit deal worse than Harvey. And general sentiment in the draft thread seems to see his value depreciating. He has a great deal of accolades in what might have been the weakest period for defencemen in NHL history.

Salming is better than Johnson, but I don't think it's enough to close the gap.

Salming (AST) - 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 7, 9, 12, 13
Johnson (AST) - 1/2, 1/2, 3/4, 3/4 (I don't know his exact voting)

Second pairings, your evaluation skims over the sheer quality of my 4D

Why are you suggesting Goldham > Wentworth?

Goldham's AST record he according to a bio only has a second team finish

Wentworth in an era where AST votes are harder to find has a better record 4, 5, 5, 8

If anything our second pairings are close to even, but I won't give on more than that.

The biggest gap between
Harvey - Park
Johnson - Salming
Goodfellow - Siebert
Wentworth - Goldham

Is between Harvey and Park IMO.

Comparing accolades is no less arbitrary than VsX.

As for Mikhailov and Taylor- I think, at a minimum, Mikhailov's score is an 86 (roughly where Iginila is). I would argue that he is closer to an 88. I think Taylor is probably around a 98 (split league star, missed time with injuries/illness)... so that's between 10 and 12 points that you make up. As for Mikita's defense- TDMM disputed it, but I produced a couple posts from board members who saw him play that said that he was good defensively while still in his scoring prime, particularly when he was put in that role. Kariya and Conacher are equal defensively, as far as I am concerned. There is nothing in his bio about defensive play, though he was known as a policeman. Furthermore, I noticed you ignored Mikhailov, who I consider to be a plus defensive player (played PK for the CCCP, dogged in his pursuit of the puck).

2nd Line
I think Stamkos' current season easily makes up that 6.5 point VsX gap. But yes, your line has the defensive edge, and ultimately the edge as a whole. But offensively, my line will end up being superior by season's end.

I certainly agree that Park isn't on the same level as Harvey, but he is closer to Harvey than Johnson is to Salming. According to the HoH ranking, the gap between Harvey and Park is 9, while the gap between Johnson and Salming is 15 (possibly more with modern-day players jumping up there, like Karlsson and Chara). And while I don't particularly like using one person's rankings, Sturminator's defensive tiers list seems like a pretty acceptable one, and it has Harvey 3 tiers above Park, while Johnson is 4 tiers below Salming. As for Park's era being one of the weakest defensively... what? He went against Orr, Potvin and Robinson, all of whom are taken in the first round. How many of Harvey's contemporaries are drafted that high?

Goldham-Wentworth
Goldham has a Norris voting record of 4/5/9, which I think compares pretty even to Wentworth. Sturminator has them on the same tier, for what it is worth, so perhaps I have been underrating Wentworth.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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Special teams, both my PK units are clearly better and will help offset your PP units.

The only clear "advantage" your team has is in net IMO and my team is constructed to handle that with the personnel selected.

My top pairing contains two of the greatest defensive defensemen of all time and will help minimize any damage your offensive units could do.

My second pairing features a strong two guy with a man considered one of the best defensive D of his time

In my opinion, the only clear advantages your team has is number 1 D and 2nd line, while I have 1st line, 3C, 2D, 3rd pairing, and goalie.

I'm not saying this regular season series would be a sweep for my team (your team is incredibly strong, as usual), but I do think that my team would come out on top more often than not.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Edmonton
In my opinion, the only clear advantages your team has is number 1 D and 2nd line, while I have 1st line, 3C, 2D, 3rd pairing, and goalie.

I'm not saying this regular season series would be a sweep for my team (your team is incredibly strong, as usual), but I do think that my team would come out on top more often than not.

I disagree on 3rd pairing, Art Duncan vs Joe Hall is a fun comparison but it's pretty close for my money.

Additionally I still don't see how you have an advantage on first line. Mine is probably better offensively, all three of my players bring some level of intangible value, Kariya does absolutely nothing.

Additionally Taylor's score of ~98ish counts only his career after age 30, his score would be higher if he wasn't a defenceman and got to play in his prime.

I see no reason to suggest that your second line would outproduce mine over an entire season, and same with first lines.

Using the HOH list IMO is a poor way to go about such a comparison on D because the difference between D is far from linear, it's closer to exponential, in that the difference between a top 3 D of all time and a top 12 D is wider in my mind than that of a top 25 and a top 40.

I would need to see some numbers to suggest that one more good season by Stamkos will make up that gap, additionally my score is deflated by Cecil Dillon's deployment.
 
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ResilientBeast

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Brad Park from the first half of his career was always a distant second in Norris voting to Orr and was beating guys who are not even first pairing calibre in ATD

Norris Results
69-70 - Carl Brewer in 3rd
70-71 - JC Tremblay in 3rd
71-72 - Bill White in 3rd
72-73 - Tied Bill White for 3rd and lost to Guy Lapointe (2nd)
73-74 - Bill White in 3rd
74-75 - Didn't get any Norris votes
75-76 - Beaten by a 22 year old Potvin, ahead of Salming in 3rd


The front half of Park's career which inflates his AST totals were against subpar competition until closer to the mid 70s, and even then he couldn't beat Potvin while in his prime.

Robinson didn't star receiving serious voting attention until 1976-77 and then he and Potvin collectively beat Park out for awards.

The first half of his career is full of AST against weak competition and post Orr was never named the best D in the league. In the draft thread I praised the pick as saying last of a tier.

But digging into his record I come away unimpressed, Orr, Potvin, Robinson and Park probably all shouldn't be in the top 10 or fringes of it all time. If I could vote on the top D project I would be harsher on Park
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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Brad Park from the first half of his career was always a distant second in Norris voting to Orr and was beating guys who are not even first pairing calibre in ATD

Norris Results
69-70 - Carl Brewer in 3rd
70-71 - JC Tremblay in 3rd
71-72 - Bill White in 3rd
72-73 - Tied Bill White for 3rd and lost to Guy Lapointe (2nd)
73-74 - Bill White in 3rd
74-75 - Didn't get any Norris votes
75-76 - Beaten by a 22 year old Potvin, ahead of Salming in 3rd


The front half of Park's career which inflates his AST totals were against subpar competition until closer to the mid 70s, and even then he couldn't beat Potvin while in his prime.

Robinson didn't star receiving serious voting attention until 1976-77 and then he and Potvin collectively beat Park out for awards.

The first half of his career is full of AST against weak competition and post Orr was never named the best D in the league. In the draft thread I praised the pick as saying last of a tier.

But digging into his record I come away unimpressed, Orr, Potvin, Robinson and Park probably all shouldn't be in the top 10 or fringes of it all time. If I could vote on the top D project I would be harsher on Park

And the only top-tier player that Harvey beats is Kelly a few times, and Pilote once. The level of competition argument is not a good one. There is no doubt that Harvey is better, but Park was beat by all-time great players- better players than Harvey had to beat. Take out Orr (since Harvey wouldn't beat him either), and Park has 4 Norris trophies. Less than Harvey's 7, but still a ton. Then if we start comparing Harvey's seasons to those of Potvin and Robinson... perhaps he would lose a Norris or two there, as well.

And that's not even getting into the argument that it is hard to win accolades in bigger leagues.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
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And the only top-tier player that Harvey beats is Kelly a few times, and Pilote once. The level of competition argument is not a good one. There is no doubt that Harvey is better, but Park was beat by all-time great players- better players than Harvey had to beat. Take out Orr (since Harvey wouldn't beat him either), and Park has 4 Norris trophies. Less than Harvey's 7, but still a ton. Then if we start comparing Harvey's seasons to those of Potvin and Robinson... perhaps he would lose a Norris or two there, as well.

And that's not even getting into the argument that it is hard to win accolades in bigger leagues.

Harvey would have one heck of a better chance beating Orr than Park would.

Again since you didn't address it, the HOH list and tier lists are not linear simply looking at one members opinion and saying they are separated by x amount of tiers is lazy.

Bigger leagues lead to easier accolades perhaps but the 70s the NHL was also the weakest in terms of talent per team.

Outside of Sturms tier list and the HOH list you've not provided any reasoning for why your top pairing is superior.

And VsX is certainly not as weak as simply comparing awards and all star teams. We've surely surpassed that level of superficial comparison
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
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Edmonton
Taylor most certainly makes up the gap of 12 when comparing strictly offence, and I will need some level of first hand evidence outside of the posts of a few HOH members to make me think Mikita is some defense stalwart.

His bios (including my own) contain less information on his defensive abilities than my current bio on Taylor.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
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Edmonton
In my opinion, the only clear advantages your team has is number 1 D and 2nd line, while I have 1st line, 3C, 2D, 3rd pairing, and goalie.

I'm not saying this regular season series would be a sweep for my team (your team is incredibly strong, as usual), but I do think that my team would come out on top more often than not.

Just looping back to this statement there is no "clear advantage" in

- 1st line
- 3rd pairing

Using the flawed (for this purpose) HOH lists

Harvey (2) - Park (11)
Johnson (37) - Salming (22)
Goodfellow (43) - Siebert (47)

Taylor (12) - Mikita (5)
Ullman (25) - Stamkos (Unranked)

Elias (45) - Kariya (37)
Schrinner (33) - Abel (30 on the centers)

Conacher (11) - Mikhalov (20)
Dillon (56) - Gilbert (52)


Or would you prefer VsX? Which already showed there are no clear advantages

Or back to counting collective all star teams and Art Ross trophies?
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
9,712
6,432
Brampton, ON
Brampton Beavers


250px-Brampton_Dominion_Building.jpg


still_beaver.jpg


K. Stevens - M. Lemieux - P. Bure
Demitra - J. Thornton - Sundin
Damphousse - Bergeron - Lehtinen
Williams - B. Richards - Kovalev

Whitney, R. Smyth

Leetch - Zubov
Gonchar - Numminen
Boyle -Samuelsson

Hedman, Kasparaitis

Plante
Lundqvist

Coach: Pat Quinn​

Now, what on Earth is Kevin Stevens doing on the top line of an ATD? Well, simply kicking ass with Mario like in the old days! Having the legendary Mario Lemieux affords the opportunity to draft a lesser player and put him on the top line because of the real life chemistry and history the two demonstrated.

From 1990-1993, Kevin Stevens was a First or Second Team All-Star in three consecutive seasons. He put up 123 points in 1992 and finished eighth in Hart voting that season. Stevens scored 77 points in just three years in the playoffs from 1991 to 1993.

Stevens brings some size, familiarity and goal scoring to the top line while Pavel Bure brings speed, sizzle and absolutely elite goal scoring ability to the other wing! Opponents have to be heavily concentrated on defense because at any moment Lemieux can deke a defenseman out of his jock or Bure can burn someone with his speed or Stevens can shove someone out of his way and get himself set up for a scoring opportunity.

Joe Thornton dominates possession. He has a career CF% of more than 55% and CF% rel of almost 5% in his career. He is one of the NHL's best players since 1960 in terms of adjusted plus/minus: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/adjusted-even-strength-plus-minus-1960-2017.591548/. He will be centering a player who also made the list of the 100 players with the NHL's best adjusted plus/minus ratings since 1960 in Mats Sundin.

Additionally, Sundin and Thornton are two of the top 40 scorers in terms of ES VsX since 1960: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/even-strength-vsx.2454659/.

Sundin complements Thornton's abilities to shield the puck, control the play and use his vision to set up plays with his natural goal scoring abilities, shooting talent and ability to drive to the net.

Pavol Demitra ( ES VsX of 53) rounds out the line. Demitra also appears on the adjusted plus/minus list referenced previously.


The checking line stars a man who is arguably the greatest defensive forward of all-time (Bergeron) as well as three-time Selke winner Jere Lehtinen and the versatile Vincent Damphousse (ES VsX of 52). Bergeron and Lehtinen both appear on the adjusted plus/minus list that has been referenced.

The fourth line features two Conn Smythe winners (Williams and Richards) and two players who each scored 100 or more points in the playoffs (Kovalev and Richards). Williams has 94 points in the post-season.


Another Conn Smythe winner (Leetch) leads the defense, pairing up with Sergei Zubov. Gonchar and Numminen make up the second pairing. Gonchar and Zubov appear on the list of the 100 players with the best adjusted plus/minus ratings since 1960. Dan Boyle and the physical and intimidating Ulf Samuelsson round out the defense. The game-plan for the defense is to get the puck up to the forwards and to join the attack when the first two lines are on the ice. The Bergeron line is used to insulate any of the three defensive pairing defensively.

The starting goaltending is one of the greatest goalies in hockey history: Jacques Plante. His back up is Henrik Lunqvist.

The big Irish man Pat Quinn is the coach of the Beavers. He will emphasize an aggressive, up-tempo style of hockey.



Details on special teams to follow.
 
Last edited:

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,902
3,557
Edmonton
Moving on to goaltending, does Parent in the regular season have a "clear advantage" over Lehman?

Parent's RS resume is quite weak

Like looking at it in depth, he might be the worst regular season starting goalie in the draft
 
Last edited:

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,660
2,143
Look, I have a time consuming job and a family, so I have neither the time nor the inclination to go digging around various newspaper archives. Before this ATD season, I dont remember reading any doubts about Mikita's defensive prowess (not saying that there weren't any, just that I hadn't seen them). Furthermore, for the entirety of my paing-attention-to-hockey life, I have heard Mikita's defensive game spoken of in glowing terms.

I never said that Park is better than Harvey, so stop trying to imply that I am doing so. I'm only stating that Harvey would not have nearly the same resume as he does if he played in the same era that Park did, and that I think we would look at Park more favorably if he played in Harvey's era.

As for VsX- I think you are using it too much as the end-all be-all. It gives a good idea of offensive ability, but it doesnt take into account several important factors- linemates and usage being two that come to mind quickly. Yes, I think that looking at awards and all-star teams is just as valuable as considering VsX, as the people who actually watched those seasons are the ones that are voting on them, and they would take into account things like linemates, usage, and defensive ability. You know, the entire picture, not just points. And if you are so against awards and all-star appearances- why did you cite them in comparing our defense?

Goaltending- I agree that the regular season does not see much difference between our goaltenders, I am still getting used to ignoring playoffs for this thread, haha. Although I do think Bobrovsky deserves a shout-out- 2 Vezinas/1st All-Stars and 2 top-5 Hart nominations is pretty nice for a backup, even if the longevity isn't there. Oh wait... I only stated his awards... what's his VsX???
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,660
2,143
Brampton Beavers

K. Stevens - M. Lemieux - P. Bure
Demitra - J. Thornton - Sundin
Damphousse - Bergeron - Lehtinen
Williams - B. Richards - Kovalev

Whitney, R. Smyth

Leetch - Zubov
Gonchar - Numminen
Boyle -Samuelsson

Hedman, Kasparaitis

Plante
Lundqvist

Coach: Pat Quinn​

Now, what on Earth is Kevin Stevens doing on the top line of an ATD? Well, simply kicking ass with Mario like in the old days! Having the legendary Mario Lemieux affords the opportunity to draft a lesser player and put him on the top line because of the real life chemistry and history the two demonstrated.

From 1990-1993, Kevin Stevens was a First or Second Team All-Star in three consecutive seasons. He put up 123 points in 1992 and finished eighth in Hart voting that season. Stevens scored 77 points in just three years in the playoffs from 1991 to 1993.

Stevens brings some size, familiarity and goal scoring to the top line while Pavel Bure brings speed, sizzle and absolutely elite goal scoring ability to the other wing! Opponents have to be heavily concentrated on defense because at any moment Lemieux can deke a defenseman out of his jock or Bure can burn someone with his speed or Stevens can shove someone out of his way and get himself set up for a scoring opportunity.

Joe Thornton dominates possession. He has a career CF% of more than 55% and CF% rel of almost 5% in his career. He is one of the NHL's best players since 1960 in terms of adjusted plus/minus: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/adjusted-even-strength-plus-minus-1960-2017.591548/. He will be centering a player who also made the list of the 100 players with the NHL's best adjusted plus/minus ratings since 1960 in Mats Sundin.

Additionally, Sundin and Thornton are two of the top 40 scorers in terms of ES VsX since 1960: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/even-strength-vsx.2454659/.

Sundin complements Thornton's abilities to shield the puck, control the play and use his vision to set up plays with his natural goal scoring abilities, shooting talent and ability to drive to the net.

Pavol Demitra ( ES VsX of 53) rounds out the line. Demitra also appears on the adjusted plus/minus list referenced previously.


The checking line stars a man who is arguably the greatest defensive forward of all-time (Bergeron) as well as three-time Selke winner Jere Lehtinen and the versatile Vincent Damphousse (ES VsX of 52). Bergeron and Lehtinen both appear on the adjusted plus/minus list that has been referenced.

The fourth line features two Conn Smythe winners (Williams and Richards) and two players who each scored 100 or more points in the playoffs (Kovalev and Richards). Williams has 94 points in the post-season.


Another Conn Smythe winner (Leetch) leads the defense, pairing up with Sergei Zubov. Gonchar and Numminen make up the second pairing. Gonchar and Zubov appear on the list of the 100 players with the best adjusted plus/minus ratings since 1960. Dan Boyle and the physical and intimidating Ulf Samuelsson round out the defense. The game-plan for the defense is to get the puck up to the forwards and to join the attack when the first two lines are on the ice. The Bergeron line is used to insulate any of the three defensive pairing defensively.

The starting goaltending is one of the greatest goalies in hockey history: Jacques Plante. His back up is Henrik Lunqvist.

The big Irish man Pat Quinn is the coach of the Beavers. He will emphasize an aggressive, up-tempo style of hockey.



Details on special teams to follow.

Like I said earlier- I think this is one hell of an all-star team (as in the in-season one), but as a cohesive, all around team, I think you are lacking.

Your top line... who plays defense? Neither Lemieux or Bure, that is for sure, and while Stevens can beat people up, he is not a top6 player at this level. In anything, save punching faces. Now, this line will score- but more than it gives up? I think that is in doubt.

Your second line is much more cohesive, though Demtitra strikes me as a weak 2nd liner here.

Your 3rd line looks to be excellent offensively, but offensively it is a non-factor.

Your 4th line is also weak defensively.

As for your defense- you probably have the best collection of puck movers, but defensively, much like your 1st line, it is going to be exploited. While players like Leetch and Zubov were good defensively, in a 24 team ATD, they really are not special in that regard.

Obviously your goaltending is great, the best in the division without a doubt. But is it enough? Plante is going to be facing a ton of shots.

Why the Americans will win this series:

Brampton is incredibly weak defensively, with the only real defensive positive being the offensively anemic Bergeron line. I dont see any way your team shuts down my team, which can roll 3 lines with legitimate scoring ability.

Your team will be hemmed in the defensive zone regularly, by both the New York and Edmonton squads. And while I think your goaltending advantage will make up some ground, it wont be enough.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,778
7,804
Oblivion Express
I honestly have no idea why some people simply use VsX to determine superiority of a scoring line. It's not like RB's 1st line is going to be dispatched against Kariya-Mikita-Mikhailov. I'm not a fan of using VsX as a stand alone to determine who "wins" head to head. One, VsX is a nice barometer of the impact a player had scoring over a 7/10 year period but it certainly is only part of the story. And two, like I said above we should really focus on who your lines are going to be matched up against vs the opponent.

RM has the superior top line if we're comparing his team to RB's. Mikita is a clear tier above Taylor and while you might say the same thing about Conacher over Mikhailov, I place more value on the C position because quite frankly history has shown teams rarely win without stellar C skill at the top. You can get by with so so play from the wings. Kariya vs Elias is a wash IMO. Peak vs Longevity.

RB has the better 2nd line. It's probably the best 2nd line the entire draft, or at the very least top 2-3.

And as for who has the best defensive line. I think the clear winner is Roberts-Kopitar-Bailey. Kopitar is a perennial Selke candidate (strong argument for his 2nd win this year as well) and Bailey is a very strong defensive RW. Roberts is at least average if not above so.

I think defense is where RB really shines overall. The top pairing is flat out ridiculous and while I'm not as big a fan as some on Wentworth as a 2nd pair guy, Goodfellow is a really great #3 here. Duncan is probably underused on a bottom pairing. I do think Salming-Park is a really underrated to pair though. Not a ton of physicality there but at the ATD level you've got an above average 1 and a really damn good #2 (Salming could actually pass as a low 1 at 24 teams).

Goalie is more or less a wash if just looking at regular season accolades although I still question the level of admiration Lehman gets when you can strongly argue the voting in the PCHA was suspect (1 single voter) and the lack of competition at G was evident as well. Still, Parent's biggest value is in the postseason which is much less a factor here.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,902
3,557
Edmonton
I’m not suggesting, that VsX and we’re done with it. But simply tossing out all star teams and art Ross trophies. Is a far poorer way to make an arguement.

IE please look at what I posted about Wentworth’s AST record, it’s clearly worthy of a 4D in a draft this size.
 
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Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
9,894
1,070
West Egg, New York
And the only top-tier player that Harvey beats is Kelly a few times, and Pilote once.
Although I disagree with the argument that Park's competition was weak (it definitely wasn't), you are forgetting Bill Gadsby, who was a player of roughly the same level as Salming. If that's not top-tier competition, you are using a much too narrow definition of the term.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,902
3,557
Edmonton
Although I disagree with the argument that Park's competition was weak (it definitely wasn't), you are forgetting Bill Gadsby, who was a player of roughly the same level as Salming. If that's not top-tier competition, you are using a much too narrow definition of the term.

Is park truly in the 10-13 slot for defensemen all time? Because that seems like a awful amount of talent from one decade in that range.
 

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