Format (should expand World Juniors to 12 teams)

[Jets4Life]

It's so bad to see that.
The powerful countries trying to keep their spot.

Look at the other sports : 8 coutries only don't help to promote hockey.
If you want to have an international impact, economic repercussions, you need to developp hockey in more countries.
Examples?
Vanek helped Austrian hockey to have more exposure.
In France, with Cristobal Huet in the NHL, at least we have a few hockey reports at TV...
But if young players of small countries can't test themselves against better competitions, they will never be able to move up the ladder.
Maybe you will have a few games with big scores for 1-2 years, but sooner a team like Denmark could surprise one of the "big 8".

Exactly.

Thats why I stick with my 24 team proposal. So what if Poland finishes the first tourament 0-3, with 1 Goal for vs 68 Goals against. It gives them something to shoot for the next tournament. Like losing by 7 goals instad of 30. Soon many Poles will take interest and eventually they will be at a Belarus level in 5 years. Besides, Poland has been in the tourney before, is larger, and more populated than Belarus.

Just to prove this is no joke, I came up with a link that shows all time standings of the 27 COUNTRIES that have participated in Pool "A" over the years:

World Hockey Championships: Country Records 1930-2004

 

[ES]

There is also a problem in U20 and in U18 as well that players change every year.

IMO it would be better if there is a tournament between last two of pool A and winners of pool B, so total of 4 teams.

Last year for example Ukraine had four losses with goals 1-4 or something like that. Ukraine got the place by 1983-born players, but then players born in 1984 were not so good I think.

 

[TORRUS]

Here's a better idea: follow the Switzerland model. Invest into your junior program. Develop quality young players. Switzerland has gone from a perennial laughing stock to a team that can beat any team on any given night. They have a bronze medal, at least one fourth place finish, and the respect of every national junior program in the world. They bettered themselves through hard work and quality developmental programs, not token spots in the touranment. Other countries can do the same.

Hey, you are talking about the wealthyest country in the world. They have so much money that it's hard for them to decide where to invest it. Offcourse they invested in junior program... So, you shouldn't take Switzerland as an example...
You would say: ''OK, Ukraine, you want better junior hockey?! Just follow the Switzerland model. Just invest $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and everything will be just fine.

 

[Jets4Life]

Hey, you are talking about the wealthyest country in the world. They have so much money that it's hard for them to decide where to invest it. Offcourse they invested in junior program... So, you shouldn't take Switzerland as an example...
You would say: ''OK, Ukraine, you want better junior hockey?! Just follow the Switzerland model. Just invest $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and everything will be just fine.

How would you explain the relative sucess of Belarus in the last few years?

 

[SwisshockeyAcademy]

Exactly.

Thats why I stick with my 24 team proposal. So what if Poland finishes the first tourament 0-3, with 1 Goal for vs 68 Goals against. It gives them something to shoot for the next tournament. Like losing by 7 goals instad of 30. Soon many Poles will take interest and eventually they will be at a Belarus level in 5 years. Besides, Poland has been in the tourney before, is larger, and more populated than Belarus.

Just to prove this is no joke, I came up with a link that shows all time standings of the 27 COUNTRIES that have participated in Pool "A" over the years:

World Hockey Championships: Country Records 1930-2004

You have dug up the senior level results. Poland used to be a fairly regular member of the top eight in juniors. When Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union broke up they were pushed further down the ladder. I do not see how 12 teams is such a stretch especially since Germany and Belarus are establishing themselves as worthy 9-10 teams as they seem to be back every second year. By 2008 we will have perhaps a Denmark and Slovenia demanding to be included because of their improved play. Scouts would no doubt appreciate seeing top level prospects from the smaller countries playing against the best not against Estonia.

 

[Jazz]

I think he meant this site:

World Junior Hockey Championships, All time Elite pool Standings, 1977-2004

 

[Mountain Dude]

If all these teams were so "competitive", than they would be making the tournament every year and the medals would be split up evenly, and they would be knocking off teams like Finland and Canada at least 50% of the time.

 

[Jazz]

If all these teams were so "competitive", than they would be making the tournament every year and the medals would be split up evenly, and they would be knocking off teams like Finland and Canada at least 50% of the time.

It's a different time now - I would have agreed with your stance 10/15 years ago. Now many of the teams ranked 9th to 16th at the U20 (World Junior) level are making strides now with their hockey programs. The point is that they are getting more competitive, and the better hockey nations should help them out - not make an exclusive club.

Next year it is likely that you will see either Slovenia or Latvia in Vancouver for the 2006 World Juniors (with either team making their first ever appearance at the elite level). You are not seeing the same team getting relegated one year, only to get promoted the next year. The teams in that range (9th to 16th rank) are getting more competitive with each other, and more than 2 of them deserve to play against the world's best.

 

[Raimo Sillanpää]

It's a different time now - I would have agreed with your stance 10/15 years ago. Now many of the teams ranked 9th to 16th at the U20 (World Junior) level are making strides now with their hockey programs. The point is that they are getting more competitive, and the better hockey nations should help them out - not make an exclusive club.

Next year it is likely that you will see either Slovenia or Latvia in Vancouver for the 2006 World Juniors (with either team making their first ever appearance at the elite level). You are not seeing the same team getting relegated one year, only to get promoted the next year. The teams in that range (9th to 16th rank) are getting more competitive with each other, and more than 2 of them deserve to play against the world's best.

Helping - would work better by inviting the team 9-12 etc to other tournaments, like 4 nations etc. Getting them more competition. Getting them to the toughest tournament of all to get thumped 10-0 won't be "helping" them.

But having a Canada, USA, Slovenia, Latvia, Sweden, Finland sort of tournament to help these smaller countries would be beneficial, as the stronger nations would be unlikely to field their best teams, but would still field far stronger teams than Latvia and slovenia would meat in their level tournamets..

 

[TORRUS]

How would you explain the relative sucess of Belarus in the last few years?

The difference between BLR and UKR is in Andrei Kostsitsyn.
The last few years of Belarus sucess are the years when Andrei played. This is going to be his 5th (if I'm right) appearrance (not to mention how many U18-s)!
He is the main reason! And I wouldn't even consider him completely as a product of Bularus junior program since he plays in Russia for the last couple of years and is coached by Russian coaches (Tikhonov among them). This year Belarus wont be relegated because Kostsitsyn and Zakharov are going to make it very hard for other countries. I tell you, Belarus will surprise! But next year when Andrei will be gone Belarus is (unfortunately) going down UKR or KAZ or LAT don't have such player, YET(!!!). There are probably Kostsitsyn's in those countries but we have to wait a bit longer for them. In my opinion it's just a temporary BLR sucess that other Kostsitsyn's in UKR, KAZ, LAT might bring once to their countries as well. And that will be (in general) the situation of those former Soviet republics-individual talent. It's going to be that way untill someone seriously takes over the program, changes the whole infrastructure and invests $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in it. And that is impossible cause they don't have the money.
I wish I'm wrong...

 

[Riddarn]

Here's an idea for you:

Say the A-pool will get 12 teams. Now, to determin that it's the _right_ 12 teams playing in the world champs, let the 4 last teams from last years previous tournament face off with the 4 best teams from pool B, say in October. Thats two months before the tournament which means teams are more or less complete. The best 4 go off to play the WJC with the other 8.

Did that get messy or did any of you actually get what I tried to write?

(edit: Some explaination -- the main reason for this is because the teams outside the "big 7" have much bigger variation of the qualities of teams from year to year. This way they can actually get to play if they manage to get a strong team enough instead of getting caught down in Pool B)

 

[GKJ]

They do this so that the teams in the other divisions have something to play for, and it also promotes growth for the lesser countries who come up and down.

 

[Jazz]

They do this so that the teams in the other divisions have something to play for, and it also promotes growth for the lesser countries who come up and down.

Agreed - I don't see the point of having a team work it's way up, only to be virtually guaranteed of going back down (unless they somehow knocked off one of the top-8).

 

[London Knights]

In this case, the more is definitely not the merrier. The extra teams will just end up being canon fodder, or window dressing or whatever. They contribute nothing to the competition.

I disagree. I think that inclusion in a tournament of this nature can really boost a hockey program for a country. Any time a non-dominant country accomplishes something at these type of events they have the potential of inspiring kids to go into the program, or to gain more funding for those currently withing the program.

Take a look at the celebration that Belarus got to achieve when they upset Sweden at the Olympics. Other than the upset,and playing well against Canada for 10 minutes they really had no business being there.