Fleury

[RyanM]

I'm not going to get into the Fleury vs Lehtonon thing because IMO it's pointless. We're talking about 2 players who still have a LONG way to develop and anything could help/hurt both goalies. It could be 15 years before we know who is better and both have done a LOT in life for their age so i'll leave it at that.

Now, people can dump on Fleury all they want for never winning anything, but it's getting pretty sad to see every 2nd person call a 19yr old choker when 18 months ago the same people were going on about how great he was.

Did Fleury have a bad WJHC? No. Was he as good as in Halifax? No. People love to blame Fleury for losing. But how about our coach who had our best offensive player on the 4th line because of his age? How about our coach who changed the game plan going into the 3rd? How about the defenceman who was standing by his goalie who was trying to clear the puck? They're all just as much to blame as the guy between the pipes if you ask me.

And people also love the fact that he lost in the playoffs. But really anyone who watched a second of that series knows that players quit on Cape Breton(I seen it with my own 2 eyes, and have had people who seen the games in Chicoutimi tell me about how poor the effort was from these players)and people also wonder why he did not dominate at the WJHC or did not dominate the Q(amazing numbers, but not the same player) when he came back BUT when you look at how much he was through in the last 2 years it's no wonder.

The first half of 02/03 he was worked to death by a VERY poor QMJHL team. Faced 40+ shots regularly. Then he went to the WJHC camp in Halifax and made the team and immediately became the star of the team because of A) His style that's VERY fun to watch and B) The fact that he played a couple hours down the road. Then he stands on his head, carries the team to within a goal of a gold medal, wins all the awards, etc and then comes back to Cape Breton with an even worse team thanks to trades and just gets burnt out. Add in the draft hype, and that's a LOT for an 18yr old to take, regardless of his charachter.

Then he gets picked #1 overall, has all the hype of being the #1 on a CHL contender coming out of camp and goes to Pittsburgh and signs the million dollar contract and starts playing in the NHL. He absolutely stood on his head for the Pens, won rookie of the month in October(All of this STILL before his 19th birthday) and then gets sent down to the WJHC's. Notice I said get sent down. For a goaltender going to a lower level is tough to get used to because of the speed, especially for a goalie who relies on his speed as his main weapon to stop the puck. So he ends up being the goat for that team after they blew a 3rd period lead and his clearing attempt hit one of his dman and went into the net. Then he goes back to his brutal NHL team for a month before he gets sent down to Cape Breton for the last like 20 games, plays fine, then the team sickeningly self implodes and he again ends up taking the blame for one of the biggest chokes in CHL history.

The Penguins did him NO favors in all of that. He should of been signed then sent down to CB right from the start. The people in Pittsburgh didnt go see the team whether he was there or not, and they ended up sending him down anyway.

All this guy needs is a break. He's been under the microscope for the last 18 months and that's a lot for someone that age to handle. The best thing for him might be an NHL lockout so he can play some AHL games and just get used to playing hockey again and not answering questions daily about the WJHC's, his draft status, being sent down to junior, etc, etc, etc.

And that's the end of that rant

 

[Kaiped Krusader]

Lehtonen has had very little chance to play in big games and didnt look all that good in his last year of the world juniors when Fleury by far out played him and won the goalie of the tourney award.

Lehtonen won the Finnish Elite League championship as an 18 year-old. He went to the semifinals as a 19 year-old. If I'm not mistaken, he was the League's goalie of the year both years. He won bronze at the World Juniors. Sure, Fleury did better at the WJCs but he was playing behind a stacked team. What has he done in the QMJHL playoffs the last two seasons? He's laid eggs.

Give me Lehtonen.

 

[Lionel Hutz]

I'm not going to get into the Fleury vs Lehtonon thing because IMO it's pointless. We're talking about 2 players who still have a LONG way to develop and anything could help/hurt both goalies. It could be 15 years before we know who is better and both have done a LOT in life for their age so i'll leave it at that.

Now, people can dump on Fleury all they want for never winning anything, but it's getting pretty sad to see every 2nd person call a 19yr old choker when 18 months ago the same people were going on about how great he was.

Did Fleury have a bad WJHC? No. Was he as good as in Halifax? No. People love to blame Fleury for losing. But how about our coach who had our best offensive player on the 4th line because of his age? How about our coach who changed the game plan going into the 3rd? How about the defenceman who was standing by his goalie who was trying to clear the puck? They're all just as much to blame as the guy between the pipes if you ask me.

And people also love the fact that he lost in the playoffs. But really anyone who watched a second of that series knows that players quit on Cape Breton(I seen it with my own 2 eyes, and have had people who seen the games in Chicoutimi tell me about how poor the effort was from these players)and people also wonder why he did not dominate at the WJHC or did not dominate the Q(amazing numbers, but not the same player) when he came back BUT when you look at how much he was through in the last 2 years it's no wonder.

The first half of 02/03 he was worked to death by a VERY poor QMJHL team. Faced 40+ shots regularly. Then he went to the WJHC camp in Halifax and made the team and immediately became the star of the team because of A) His style that's VERY fun to watch and B) The fact that he played a couple hours down the road. Then he stands on his head, carries the team to within a goal of a gold medal, wins all the awards, etc and then comes back to Cape Breton with an even worse team thanks to trades and just gets burnt out. Add in the draft hype, and that's a LOT for an 18yr old to take, regardless of his charachter.

Then he gets picked #1 overall, has all the hype of being the #1 on a CHL contender coming out of camp and goes to Pittsburgh and signs the million dollar contract and starts playing in the NHL. He absolutely stood on his head for the Pens, won rookie of the month in October(All of this STILL before his 19th birthday) and then gets sent down to the WJHC's. Notice I said get sent down. For a goaltender going to a lower level is tough to get used to because of the speed, especially for a goalie who relies on his speed as his main weapon to stop the puck. So he ends up being the goat for that team after they blew a 3rd period lead and his clearing attempt hit one of his dman and went into the net. Then he goes back to his brutal NHL team for a month before he gets sent down to Cape Breton for the last like 20 games, plays fine, then the team sickeningly self implodes and he again ends up taking the blame for one of the biggest chokes in CHL history.

The Penguins did him NO favors in all of that. He should of been signed then sent down to CB right from the start. The people in Pittsburgh didnt go see the team whether he was there or not, and they ended up sending him down anyway.

All this guy needs is a break. He's been under the microscope for the last 18 months and that's a lot for someone that age to handle. The best thing for him might be an NHL lockout so he can play some AHL games and just get used to playing hockey again and not answering questions daily about the WJHC's, his draft status, being sent down to junior, etc, etc, etc.

And that's the end of that rant

That's pretty well said Ryan, the perspective of someone who saw him play in Sydney before and after the pick, and the 2nd WJHC etc sheds some light. Being from Sydney, I watched him play before he was drafted both in CB and in Halifax after I moved. I would agree with much of what you say. The promise I saw from that kid, at the end of the 2002 season, exahusted, overused, and with alll the pressure of bing the one to watch going into the draft, is not something I will ever forget. Down the strech and into the playoffs against Halifax, he was just awesome, and made a very bad team very competitive.

I don't care about the WJHC this year, or the tough games in the NHL, IMO, they're just bumps along the road. Give him some time, and we'll see that guy who will steal the show night in and night out. Anyone who expected that to happen in the NHL in year one is a fool. To think he is a choker b/c he didn't dominate like that is not far behind.

As for Lhetonen, yeah, he's great. He hasn't been under the microscope Fleury has been under. I'll wait until I see him in pressure situations before I say he is > b/c he is not a choker.

I look forward to seeing the two duel for the Easten conference championship in a few years.

 

[Lionel Hutz]

Lehtonen won the Finnish Elite League championship as an 18 year-old. He went to the semifinals as a 19 year-old. If I'm not mistaken, he was the League's goalie of the year both years. He won bronze at the World Juniors. Sure, Fleury did better at the WJCs but he was playing behind a stacked team. What has he done in the QMJHL playoffs the last two seasons? He's laid eggs.

Give me Lehtonen.

1st - the Finnish elite league championship is not the media and pressure circus that followed Fleury since his mystique began.

2nd, your assessment of the QMJHL playoffs is unfair, and unknowledgeable. This year, whatever happend to the Eagles was far more than Fleury. It was a loaded, favored team that quit. Win as a team-lose as a team, it was not Fleury's fault. He could have played better, but if he had, that team still would have lost b/c they all quit.

In the 2002 playoffs, he laid eggs? You have no idea what you are talking about. That team shouldn't have been in the playoffs. He took them there, and he nearly took them further, with the team on his back.

 

[Kaiped Krusader]

Maybe the 'media' and 'pressure' isn't as intense in the SM-Liiga as it is in the QMJHL (though I kinda doubt it) but there can be no question that the level of play is much higher. Fleury as a kid dominated other kids; Lehtonen as a kid dominated mature professionals.

And who said anything about the 2002 playoffs? Not me: I said the last two playoffs ... 2004 and 2003. I know Fleury was great in '02. That was his 'coming out' party in a lot of respects that set the table for his draft year. Perhaps his team quit did on him the past two seasons. Perhaps this, perhaps that. I honestly don't know for certain. I do know it's not much different from Lehtonen's experience at his last WJCs where he was expected to be superhuman and carry his team on his back though. If Lehtonen can be criticized for his last WJC (which is fine,) then why MA Fleury has only won one playoff game in the past two seasons ought to be addressed too.

 

[User571]

Sorry man, but Lehtonen is better than Fleury.

Fleury has alot of weight to add, and if he can add that weight without losing any speed has yet to be seen.

Your wrong about Fleury needing to add weight, but right now Lehtonen is better than Fleury.

On a different note, I dont want people to think that I hate Lehtonen because I like Fleury. Lehtonen is a great goalie with potential to be one of the greatest goalies ever, I would just rather see Fleury be better. Head says Lehtonen-Heart says Fleury.

 

[Lionel Hutz]

Maybe the 'media' and 'pressure' isn't as intense in the SM-Liiga as it is in the QMJHL (though I kinda doubt it) but there can be no question that the level of play is much higher. Fleury as a kid dominated other kids; Lehtonen as a kid dominated mature professionals.

And who said anything about the 2002 playoffs? Not me: I said the last two playoffs ... 2004 and 2003. I know Fleury was great in '02. That was his 'coming out' party in a lot of respects that set the table for his draft year. Perhaps his team quit did on him the past two seasons. Perhaps this, perhaps that. I honestly don't know for certain. I do know it's not much different from Lehtonen's experience at his last WJCs where he was expected to be superhuman and carry his team on his back though. If Lehtonen can be criticized for his last WJC (which is fine,) then why MA Fleury has only won one playoff game in the past two seasons ought to be addressed too.

Last two playoff seasons:
Last year - CB went into the playoffs a big favorite and THE TEAM didn't cut it.
Year before, CB was very weak, barely made the playoffs, and gave a much stronger Halifax team a challenge, b/c of Fleury's play.

Those are the years I am referring to. I was in Halifax the year before, and I saw him play, and he was outstanding, on a far outmatched team. And you call it dissapointing. I find that curious.

 

[RyanM]

Last two playoff seasons:
Last year - CB went into the playoffs a big favorite and THE TEAM didn't cut it.
Year before, CB was very weak, barely made the playoffs, and gave a much stronger Halifax team a challenge, b/c of Fleury's play.

Those are the years I am referring to. I was in Halifax the year before, and I saw him play, and he was outstanding, on a far outmatched team. And you call it dissapointing. I find that curious.

It's HILARIOUS that he talks about the 2003 playoffs. Fleury played 4 games in that series, and would you like to know how much GOAL support he had? TWO goals. And they both came in the last half of game 4. Do the math...

 

[RyanM]

Maybe the 'media' and 'pressure' isn't as intense in the SM-Liiga as it is in the QMJHL (though I kinda doubt it) but there can be no question that the level of play is much higher. Fleury as a kid dominated other kids; Lehtonen as a kid dominated mature professionals.

And who said anything about the 2002 playoffs? Not me: I said the last two playoffs ... 2004 and 2003. I know Fleury was great in '02. That was his 'coming out' party in a lot of respects that set the table for his draft year. Perhaps his team quit did on him the past two seasons. Perhaps this, perhaps that. I honestly don't know for certain. I do know it's not much different from Lehtonen's experience at his last WJCs where he was expected to be superhuman and carry his team on his back though. If Lehtonen can be criticized for his last WJC (which is fine,) then why MA Fleury has only won one playoff game in the past two seasons ought to be addressed too.

Fleury as a kid dominated the NHL. People forget about the first 2 months of the 03-04 season. He kept Pittsburgh in games they had no business being in. He won rookie of the month for October.

 

[Lionel Hutz]

It's HILARIOUS that he talks about the 2003 playoffs. Fleury played 4 games in that series, and would you like to know how much GOAL support he had? TWO goals. And they both came in the last half of game 4. Do the math...

The only way you can look at that performance and call it dissapointing, is if you're looking at the results on a sheet of paper and have no idea who the two teams were, and what the circumstances were.

 

[Kaiped Krusader]

It's HILARIOUS that he talks about the 2003 playoffs. Fleury played 4 games in that series, and would you like to know how much GOAL support he had? TWO goals. And they both came in the last half of game 4. Do the math...

While we're doing the math, what's 6 + 3 + 5 + 3? That's how many goals Fleury gave up in those four games.

 

[RyanM]

While we're doing the math, what's 6 + 3 + 5 + 3? That's how many goals Fleury gave up in those four games.

And the shots were 41-22 for Halifax, 46-16 for Halifax, 36-25 for Halifax, 46-20 for Halifax. It was supposed to be walk over, and it's was. It's a miracle that Fleury even kept us in 2 games(3 really, game 3 was 1-0 after 2 periods)

I don't believe someone is even arguing this. If they are then they certainly did not see the series. And you have to actually SEE a goaltender play to judge how good he is because a goaltender's stats are only as good as the team in front of him. It's be like putting Brodeur on the Penguins and saying he sucks when his GAA goes to crap.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

Maybe the 'media' and 'pressure' isn't as intense in the SM-Liiga as it is in the QMJHL (though I kinda doubt it) but there can be no question that the level of play is much higher. Fleury as a kid dominated other kids; Lehtonen as a kid dominated mature professionals.

And who said anything about the 2002 playoffs? Not me: I said the last two playoffs ... 2004 and 2003. I know Fleury was great in '02. That was his 'coming out' party in a lot of respects that set the table for his draft year. Perhaps his team quit did on him the past two seasons. Perhaps this, perhaps that. I honestly don't know for certain. I do know it's not much different from Lehtonen's experience at his last WJCs where he was expected to be superhuman and carry his team on his back though. If Lehtonen can be criticized for his last WJC (which is fine,) then why MA Fleury has only won one playoff game in the past two seasons ought to be addressed too.

2002/2003 playoffs Fleurys team was shut out for 3 and a half games and Guillaume Lavallee broke Martin Biron's record for longest shutout streak. How can you blame MAF.

Get some facts straight before you bash a then 17 year old kid.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

While we're doing the math, what's 6 + 3 + 5 + 3? That's how many goals Fleury gave up in those four games.

LOL dude, did you watch the games? Because me and RYANM watched all 4. MAF was left alone and he was making amazing saves all 4 games. He was named 1st star in i think 3 of the 4.

Yeah lets blame the guy who who stodd on his head against 7!! 30 goal scorers.

 

[Lionel Hutz]

LOL dude, did you watch the games? Because me and RYANM watched all 4. MAF was left alone and he was making amazing saves all 4 games. He was named 1st star in i think 3 of the 4.

Yeah lets blame the guy who who stodd on his head against 7!! 30 goal scorers.

Come on guys, obviously it was all Fleury's fault that CB decided to take an already weak team, and trade all their best players to Halifax so that Halifax could make a run at it!

Jeez, if he's such a great goalie, the least he could have done is taken them to the finals, lehtonen would have.

 

[Levitate]

eh fleury didn't dominate the NHL...not anymore than dan blackburn did when he played as an 18 year old. no denying he had some good games where he stoned opponents and kept his team in it...played awesome, blah blah blah...so did blackburn. but then look at their stats and tell me that they "dominated" the NHL.

they had good games, some good stretches...did not dominate. don't go reaching too far here...

oh and i'm not really comparing blackburn and fleury talentwise or anything or trying to say blackburn is as good as fleury, it was just a good comparison in my mind cuz they were both 18 year olds playing in the NHL on poor defensive teams who had some real nice games and made a bit of an impact.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

I have seen both play....Fleury much more then Lehtonen and I feel Lehtonen is much farther in development then Fleury. Fleury's overall quickness is much better then Lehtonen but Lehtonen has Roy like positioning. He makes most saves look easy as pie. Lehtonen also seems to have a better head on his shoulders. When Fleury gets beat it seems to get to him worse then Lehtonen.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

eh fleury didn't dominate the NHL...not anymore than dan blackburn did when he played as an 18 year old. no denying he had some good games where he stoned opponents and kept his team in it...played awesome, blah blah blah...so did blackburn. but then look at their stats and tell me that they "dominated" the NHL.

they had good games, some good stretches...did not dominate. don't go reaching too far here...

oh and i'm not really comparing blackburn and fleury talentwise or anything or trying to say blackburn is as good as fleury, it was just a good comparison in my mind cuz they were both 18 year olds playing in the NHL on poor defensive teams who had some real nice games and made a bit of an impact.

Were you actually expecting Fleury to "dominate" the NHL at 18? Cause if you were than I guess Ovechkin is going to get 400 pts next year.

 

[clefty]

I have seen both play....Fleury much more then Lehtonen and I feel Lehtonen is much farther in development then Fleury. Fleury's overall quickness is much better then Lehtonen but Lehtonen has Roy like positioning. He makes most saves look easy as pie. Lehtonen also seems to have a better head on his shoulders. When Fleury gets beat it seems to get to him worse then Lehtonen.

Actually, he rebounds from goals quite well. What shook him up a lot more last season was other teams players constantly taking runs at him.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Actually, he rebounds from goals quite well. What shook him up a lot more last season was other teams players constantly taking runs at him.

I dunno....I found he fought the puck alot more when scored on. Maybe he thinks he should save everything and puts extra pressure on himself.

 

[clefty]

Yeah but he's not fighting the puck because he's allowed a goal.

 

[Levitate]

Were you actually expecting Fleury to "dominate" the NHL at 18? Cause if you were than I guess Ovechkin is going to get 400 pts next year.

why don't you go back and read what i was replying too...someone posted that fleury "dominated" in the NHL as a response to someone else saying lehtonen dominated in the finnish league.

my post was addressing that claim

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

Last season, Fleury's positioning was very good early on, and he is VERY fast. I think he can handle being scored against, take a look at his first game for example. He let in his first ever shot on a breakaway (top corner), and then only let in one more goal the rest of the game while stopping 46 of 48 shots (LA scored an empty netter), losing 3-0. Pittsburgh was outshot 49-11 that game, and was badly outplayed. They should have lost at least 8-0, and I am not joking (ask any Pens fans, or LA fans for that matter). He was named first star in 3 of his first 4 games if I remember correctly. I think his confidence was hurt later on, and his speed actually hurt him as he seemed to overplay quite a bit of shots. He's only 19, and all in all he played a pretty solid season IMO.
Lehtonen is more developed now, and they are both very good young goalies (the East is going to have plenty of good goalies it seems).

 

[LaLaLaprise]

why don't you go back and read what i was replying too...someone posted that fleury "dominated" in the NHL as a response to someone else saying lehtonen dominated in the finnish league.

my post was addressing that claim

Gotcha.

 

[Levitate]

i think young goalies tend to come in and really rely on their skills and reflexes...and that only works for awhile in the NHL. if you don't have the positioning and controlled movement down, then you're gonna get burned cuz you can't keep making saves based on pure reflexes

but once they settle down and really learn their angles and positioning at the NHL level...their skills only help