Fleury lives the hype

[tom_servo]

IGM, goaltenders of Fleury's pedigree are rare, and deserve to be judged by a different standard. Dwight Lebrosse had a great camp last year for the Pens, but no one thought twice about sending him back to juniors, because it was easy to dismiss as a fluke. You can't do that with Marc-Andre Fleury.

Fleury, while perhaps no Robb Stauber, is still an elite prospect who should be given the chance to be the exception to the rule, assuming his play warrants it. And so far, it has.

I don't see any harm in letting him determine his own fate. But, in the end, I think outside factors will intervene, and he'll be back in Cape Breton for the '03-'04 season.

 

[Evilo]

But if preseason means nothing, how does one go about making a team? Prior experience? Sure, if you're Mario Lemieux. Preseason games determine who makes the big club. It determines players' future. There may not be many games, especially for a goalie to play, but that small amount of games determines a clubs' opening night line-up.

Yep exactl what he can't explain...

 

[tom_servo]

Yep exactl what he can't explain...

Well, that's easy to explain.

He's saying that more work in juniors/minors should be mandatory for Fleury before anyone starts taking his preseason numbers seriously. That has some merit. But like I said in my above post, Fleury should be given a fair chance to prove the exception to the rule. He won't be hurt.

 

[Evilo]

That has NO merit at all.
Work in juniors or minors don't necassarily translate to NHL impact (think Milan Kraft).
When a guy shows he's ready, play him until he shows otherwise.
Juniors and minors mean even less than preseason games.
That said given Cp's comments last night, I think Fleury will be sent back.
I'm not sure it's the wisest decision though.

 

[IGM]

Finally Evilo, an argument with some merit. Bravo.
This is something that I can actually debate with you. While it is true that Fluery is an exceptional young talent who just might be one of the best goalies of all time (or might be another Stauber,Storr, Dipietro, Osgood,Melanson,Kidd etc) I think that it is fair to say that allot of talented can't miss young goalies HAVE been harmed by being rushed into the NHL. It COULD do him harm. It COULD ruin his confidence. It COULDN'T do him any harm to go and play in 60 or so games in the AHL while he gets up to speed with the next level of play. It wouldn't hurt him to see 10 games worth of call up during the regular season. Why waste it at the beggining of the year when it would make more sense to let him get a bunch of starts in the AHL, prove that he is an exceptional goalie that can dominate at THAT level and then call him up.

There are two different schools of thought going on here. One is that if you rush him you could ruin him as has happened with allot of young talented goalies in the past.

The second is that you could start him in the bigs and let him learn playing among the best. He IS a special talent and I think the best young goalie to come along in a long time so it wouldn't be out of this world for him to be a solid NHL goalie at the age of 18.

The thing that you won't see and are all bunched up over is that if you rush him up now he might succeed BUT he COULD also do what so many other young great goalies before him have done and that is lose their game and confidence playing behind an awful team. It COULD happen. Why take a chance with such a promising young talent when it isn't going to help the Pens win the cup? Why rush him up now when there is even a chance of it causing him harm? Why not let him start in the AHL and get his time in there and if he does as well as you seem to think he will then call him up and let him finish the season with the big club? Why take a chance with him at all?

Why would you consider (even if it is a remote possibility) doing ANYTHING that could be detrimental to what will be the conrerstone of your future team? I mean, he is one of those players who COULD be the best at his position in a couple of years and by then you might have a solid team infront of him to make his transistion into the NHL a great one. One that legends are made of, one that would make sense. What you would rather see, (and don't say that you are only talking about him staying with the big club for the first ten games of the season because you have insinuated otherwise in other threads) Fluery come up now and MAYBE win 20 games this year while losing 40 and take a chance that he might never recover from it or wait until you have Ove and Crosby (or at least two very very good young players) to add to your team and give him a chance to play with a great young team that is on the rise?

I just don't understand why you would even consider doing anything that might have a negative impact on a great young player like him.

 

[Evilo]

Finally Evilo, an argument with some merit. Bravo.
This is something that I can actually debate with you. While it is true that Fluery is an exceptional young talent who just might be one of the best goalies of all time (or might be another Stauber,Storr, Dipietro, Osgood,Melanson,Kidd etc) I think that it is fair to say that allot of talented can't miss young goalies HAVE been harmed by being rushed into the NHL. It COULD do him harm. It COULD ruin his confidence. It COULDN'T do him any harm to go and play in 60 or so games in the AHL while he gets up to speed with the next level of play. It wouldn't hurt him to see 10 games worth of call up during the regular season. Why waste it at the beggining of the year when it would make more sense to let him get a bunch of starts in the AHL, prove that he is an exceptional goalie that can dominate at THAT level and then call him up.

There are two different schools of thought going on here. One is that if you rush him you could ruin him as has happened with allot of young talented goalies in the past.

The second is that you could start him in the bigs and let him learn playing among the best. He IS a special talent and I think the best young goalie to come along in a long time so it wouldn't be out of this world for him to be a solid NHL goalie at the age of 18.

The thing that you won't see and are all bunched up over is that if you rush him up now he might succeed BUT he COULD also do what so many other young great goalies before him have done and that is lose their game and confidence playing behind an awful team. It COULD happen. Why take a chance with such a promising young talent when it isn't going to help the Pens win the cup? Why rush him up now when there is even a chance of it causing him harm? Why not let him start in the AHL and get his time in there and if he does as well as you seem to think he will then call him up and let him finish the season with the big club? Why take a chance with him at all?

Why would you consider (even if it is a remote possibility) doing ANYTHING that could be detrimental to what will be the conrerstone of your future team? I mean, he is one of those players who COULD be the best at his position in a couple of years and by then you might have a solid team infront of him to make his transistion into the NHL a great one. One that legends are made of, one that would make sense. What you would rather see, (and don't say that you are only talking about him staying with the big club for the first ten games of the season because you have insinuated otherwise in other threads) Fluery come up now and MAYBE win 20 games this year while losing 40 and take a chance that he might never recover from it or wait until you have Ove and Crosby (or at least two very very good young players) to add to your team and give him a chance to play with a great young team that is on the rise?

I just don't understand why you would even consider doing anything that might have a negative impact on a great young player like him.

1/ Dipietro is a bust??? Ouch!

2/ See I see it the other way around. 5 games won't hurt you muich, but being sent down without any good reason other than age when you've done everytihng you've been asked CAN hurt you. Ask Milan Kraft. He was ready at 19, wasn't at 20.

 

[RyanM]

That has NO merit at all.
Work in juniors or minors don't necassarily translate to NHL impact (think Milan Kraft).
When a guy shows he's ready, play him until he shows otherwise.
Juniors and minors mean even less than preseason games.
That said given Cp's comments last night, I think Fleury will be sent back.
I'm not sure it's the wisest decision though.

One thing I think being overlooked is the chance he has this year to WIN in junior. We all know he'll be Canada's #1 at the World Juniors where he'll have a chance to win the gold medal he lost out on last year. Cape Breton is already 5-1 and has only allowed 12 goals in 6 games.

2 things you can not teach a player are confidence and winning. Playing in Pittsburgh this year all year and getting say 40 starts behind a terrible team will improve him, but will it improve him more then potentially winning a gold medal or a QMJHL championship? And then next year, what does he do? According to TSN the other day if he plays this year in the NHL, he can not play in the AHL next year if there is a lockout. So 1 year of NHL, then a year off during an important time period in his development? Or say 9 NHL games this year, then playing in Junior for the rest of the year and moving up to the AHL next year and then being ready in 05-06 when guys like Whitney and Orpik also have 2 more years development and maybe a player like Ovechkin or Crosby with them.

People can argue this ALL day. But there is no right or wrong way to develop a hockey player and what has happened before to other players is useless to bring up, because those players are not Marc-Andre Fleury. He was not supposed to make Cape Breton as a 16yr old. Not only did he make it, he started our 1st playoff game. He was not supposed to be the starting goaltender on the WJHC team as an 18yr old. Not only was he the starting goaltender, he was the tournaments MVP. The guy just seems to exceed all expectations laid out for him, and keeps that huge smile on his face the whole time while he's doing it.

 

[Evilo]

One thing I think being overlooked is the chance he has this year to WIN in junior. We all know he'll be Canada's #1 at the World Juniors where he'll have a chance to win the gold medal he lost out on last year. Cape Breton is already 5-1 and has only allowed 12 goals in 6 games.

2 things you can not teach a player are confidence and winning. Playing in Pittsburgh this year all year and getting say 40 starts behind a terrible team will improve him, but will it improve him more then potentially winning a gold medal or a QMJHL championship? And then next year, what does he do? According to TSN the other day if he plays this year in the NHL, he can not play in the AHL next year if there is a lockout. So 1 year of NHL, then a year off during an important time period in his development? Or say 9 NHL games this year, then playing in Junior for the rest of the year and moving up to the AHL next year and then being ready in 05-06 when guys like Whitney and Orpik also have 2 more years development and maybe a player like Ovechkin or Crosby with them.

People can argue this ALL day. But there is no right or wrong way to develop a hockey player and what has happened before to other players is useless to bring up, because those players are not Marc-Andre Fleury. He was not supposed to make Cape Breton as a 16yr old. Not only did he make it, he started our 1st playoff game. He was not supposed to be the starting goaltender on the WJHC team as an 18yr old. Not only was he the starting goaltender, he was the tournaments MVP. The guy just seems to exceed all expectations laid out for him, and keeps that huge smile on his face the whole time while he's doing it.

Good and reasonnable post.

 

[IGM]

Missing the point, I wasn't saying Dipietro was a bust, I was saying that we saw the how he played the few NHL games he was in and if he was left to remain in that situation that it could have done a ton of damage. I thought it was implied but I can see where it might not have been.

I also agree with the idea that IF he was returned to juniors that it would continue to build on his storybook am career and I think that if the Pens were patient and let him go through the natuaral progression to the next level after that and win AND THEN go on to the NHL that he could really be something special.

 

[spence___]

He stopped 34 of 35 shots against the Caps tonight.

 

[Histrion]

It will be hard to send him down with that kind of performances...

 

[Big McLargehuge]

According to my stats Fleury has stopped 84 of 88 in the pre-season.

That's a 1.33 GAA and a .955 save percentage.

That pretty much seals the deal. Patrick basically said in today's Pittsburgh Post~Gazette that if he played great tonight he'll open contract talks with his agents next week.

The Pens have about a week and a half to sign Fleury now.

 

[Evilo]

Incredible.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I believe it's 83/87 shots, but the GAA and SV% remain the same.

He starts again tonight againt Columbus, BTW.

 

[Le Golie]

"While it is true that Fluery is an exceptional young talent who just might be one of the best goalies of all time (or might be another Stauber,Storr, Dipietro, Osgood,Melanson,Kidd etc)"

Ok, I'm not one to beat a dead horse, but I just can't let this slide.

Without sounding too Sesame Streetish, one of those names does not belong there. It's a shock that a hockey mind would associate a superbly talented PROSPECT with a bunch of guys who are old and have had their careers unfold already.

Rick Dipietro is the best NHL ready goaltending prospect in the league right now. Don't think for one second that he is a bust. He dominated the AHL for two seasons and proved he is far too good for the minor leagues. He's having a better preseason than most could have expected. He has 2 wins, a shared shut-out and was the most dominant player on the ice against Boston. He turned 22 years old last week. I'm sorry - but how he is labelled a bust is beyond me.

 

[West Coast Express]

WOW. its been pretty intense reading some of the posts in this thread.

i think some of you are forgetting how young 18 is. im 16, just 2 years younger, and even if i was an outstanding goalie, the #1 goalie prospect, i would not be able to go up against the best hockey players in the world. fluery is obviously awesome and i agree with everyone who said PIT should give him a 5-10 game "tryout" and possibly send him back down. that seems like the safest thing to do. PIT better not be stupid and should take advantage of the fact that they could have the best goalie in the NHL in 1-2 years.

 

[tom_servo]

WOW. its been pretty intense reading some of the posts in this thread.

i think some of you are forgetting how young 18 is. im 16, just 2 years younger, and even if i was an outstanding goalie, the #1 goalie prospect, i would not be able to go up against the best hockey players in the world.

Well, that's just speculative. That's you. I mean, how would you know what Fleury's capable of?

But, that aside, the point you should've made is that Fleury may not be able to handle everything that goes with being a starter in the National Hockey League, and not just the games themselves.

He has already proven himself against world-class shooters. His skill is apparent. He has not yet, however, proven himself in a professional game that means anything.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Fleury let in 5, but it's understandable because he faced the offensive all stars of Columbus....

 

[Big McLargehuge]

playing Fleury on back to back nights was stupid, plain and simple.

 

[Jeff Goldblum]

I'm sure that, under normal circumstances, Fleury would not play back to back games. Nor would most NHL goaltenders. I still think he should be offered a contract. Let him play his 10 games in the season, then decide what to do with him. He'll only be harder to sign as time goes on.

Plus, from what I see, the Pens didn't play well at all.

 

[JasonMacIsaac]

pffft, Suglobov just played 5 games in 6 nights.

 

[IGM]

He would NEVER play back to back games in the regular season. Fluery sure is living up to the hype allright. He is a great young prospect but this just further underlines my point, why make the kid go out and back up a team that is more often than not going to leave him hung out to dry every night. Why start his NHL career that way at all? IF IF IF the Pens were a goalie away from being a contender then you might have an argument on why he should get an extended try out with the team with the hopes of his being able to step in and be the final piece to the puzzle. IF that were the case. Since it clearly isn't I just wouldn't even consider it. I can understand why a Pens fan would want to have something to cheer for this season. I can understand why a Pens fan would want to get a look at such a great young talent. I just think it is stupid to even consider having him start the season with the big club. IF he is dominant in juniors there is nothing to say that he can't come the Pens next year when there is at least a shot that they might have a better team in front of him.

It isn't that HE isn't good enough to warrant the ten games, it's that the Pens are so bad this year that there just isn't a single valid reason to have him play for them. Too many things could go wrong. Why take ANY risk with the kid when it isn't going to help your team achieve anything? I will never get it.

 

[GoRyanMalone]

He would NEVER play back to back games in the regular season. Fluery sure is living up to the hype allright. He is a great young prospect but this just further underlines my point, why make the kid go out and back up a team that is more often than not going to leave him hung out to dry every night. Why start his NHL career that way at all? IF IF IF the Pens were a goalie away from being a contender then you might have an argument on why he should get an extended try out with the team with the hopes of his being able to step in and be the final piece to the puzzle. IF that were the case. Since it clearly isn't I just wouldn't even consider it. I can understand why a Pens fan would want to have something to cheer for this season. I can understand why a Pens fan would want to get a look at such a great young talent. I just think it is stupid to even consider having him start the season with the big club. IF he is dominant in juniors there is nothing to say that he can't come the Pens next year when there is at least a shot that they might have a better team in front of him.

It isn't that HE isn't good enough to warrant the ten games, it's that the Pens are so bad this year that there just isn't a single valid reason to have him play for them. Too many things could go wrong. Why take ANY risk with the kid when it isn't going to help your team achieve anything? I will never get it.

No way. People develope different based on who they are. You can never make a solid point with that reasoning. The pens have Craig Patrick and a couple other good hockey people. Only they know. The hole point of this thread was about 'living' the hype, which he was. ( maybe I shouldn't end in a proposition?) Reguardless, I think you're already proved my point about future ticket sales. The fans will get to see him sooner or later.. Fact is, he has been dominent. At times, down right amazing. Even in his loss, he flashed signs of brilliance. But, he lost, and now if they do send him back, we may never know if he was ready. Frankly, risk is your issue, not the management of the pens. So simmer down!

 

[PecaFan]

playing Fleury on back to back nights was stupid, plain and simple.

Personally, I think they wanted him to fail.

Stop the fans from thinking he's a saviour for this season, and make the contract negotiations a little easier.

 

[Evilo]

I kind of agree.
I think they were thinking two things :
1/ He shuts down Columbus or is still standgin on his head. Then no question asked, sign him and start him.
2/ Or see him fail, and have a good reason for sending him back without looking like an ass to your fans.